Season 4 Episode 4 "Oathkeeper": *HAVE* read the books

Mr Freeze

I didn't mind that scene with the White Walker. So its a WW that the baby turned in to? Is that confirmed?

I don't mind the deviations from the book either, it makes a few storylines more interesting that may have been a bit boring. It can only improve Bran's current storyline anyways.

Now, what I do take an issue with and its not just in this episode, its a general thing about how the show writers are handling Daenerys. They seem to be portraying her in a good a light as possible.

She took Meereen with ease, they cut out the whole near impossible wading through 6ft of sewage, and then her decision to kill the masters by crucifixion seemed really rushed. They just kinda glossed over it.

Like when she took Astapor, they left out the bit about every male over 12 that's not a slave being put to death.

They are leaving out the atrocities that Daenerys is committing to show her in a ridiculously good light.

Daith

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Alot of people saying the deviations form the books are great. I really don't agree, particularly about Bran at Craster's keep. Ghost being caged, and Summer being caught in a trap is a bit stupid as well. Dany taking Mereen so quickly also.

Well it wasn't Summer though. It was Bran in Summers body and I think it's a nice way to show that Bran isn't invincible when he wargs.

Bran's story at this point in the books is boring. It's nice to actually to give him some more story before he turns into a tree.

Does it really matter how long it takes Dany to take over Mereen.

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

The tv show really is dumbing everything down to the point of oversimplification, and at a big cost to the plot.

I don't think it is. I think people are getting upset that it's dismissing various theories that have been built up though.

Dumbing down would be having Dany sack Mereen with her Dragons.

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Edit to add: The QoT telling Margaery how much of a go-er she used to be was more than a little jarring, and totally unneccesary

Really? I thought it was a nice mirror to the Tywin scene from last week. She's teaching Margaery.

Mickeroo

Regards what Liam O said about Shae, I kind of agree to a point but we'll see how it plays out first. That and the mishandling of the "rape" last week have been my only gripes really. Most everything else has been an improvement.

Hopefully R+ L = J will be confirmed next week and Oberyn survives his duel with the mountain later on

Tom.D.BJJ

Daith wrote: »

Does it really matter how long it takes Dany to take over Mereen.

My concern is that the show is rushing through the stories of various characters. What's Dany going to do for the next two seasons? The showrunners will have her up and out of Meereen in no time.

Will there be even time for the characters to converge on Meereen. Untangling the Meereenese knot before it's even tied.

Daith

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

My concern is that the show is rushing through the stories of various characters. What's Dany going to do for the next two seasons? The showrunners will have her up and out of Meereen in no time.

Will there be even time for the characters to converge on Meereen. Untangling the Meereenese knot before it's even tied.

Yet if it took her longer to take Meereen people would complain about the padding of Dany's story. Look at the non-readers thread. People complaining that it's another slave city.

Mickeroo

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

My concern is that the show is rushing through the stories of various characters. What's Dany going to do for the next two seasons? The showrunners will have her up and out of Meereen in no time.

Will there be even time for the characters to converge on Meereen. Untangling the Meereenese knot before it's even tied.

There's plenty of stuff to fill up Danny's storyline in the next few seasons imo. Don't think we'll be seeing too much of her after last night this season what with everything that has to be covered in Westeros.

Tom.D.BJJ

Mickeroo wrote: »

Hopefully R+ L = J will be confirmed next week and Oberyn survives his duel with the mountain later on

:D:D

Wrap it up this season.

GGRM had better hurry because the tv show is decimating his legacy before he even has a chance to finish it

Daith

Mickeroo wrote: »

Hopefully R+ L = J will be confirmed next week

Not untill Bran, Jon, Arya, The Hound, Rickon, the wolves and the Reeds all meet up and there's an innocent comment about how much Arya is like Jon's mother.

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

GGRM had better hurry because the tv show is decimating his legacy before he even has a chance to finish it

How?

Kunkka

Are they really going down a romantic route with Grey Worm too? Dear god...

Daith

Kunkka wrote: »

Are they really going down a romantic route with Grey Worm too? Dear god...

Yes but only because he ends up marrying Dany in the last book.

longhalloween

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Alot of people saying the deviations form the books are great. I really don't agree, particularly about Bran at Craster's keep. Ghost being caged, and Summer being caught in a trap is a bit stupid as well. Dany taking Mereen so quickly also.

The tv show really is dumbing everything down to the point of oversimplification, and at a big cost to the plot.

I like the deviations. As book readers I think we miss out on the thrill and suspense non-book readers get from watching.
For me the most exciting part of the RW and PW was watching my girlfriends reactions, not the events themselves.

The last 30 seconds of that episode was the first time in 4 seasons I didn't know what was going on and it was great!

Besides, GRRM is a screenwriter as well as an author, so he more than anyone will know that storylines and timelines have to be altered to make for a compelling show.

Mousewar

Kunkka wrote: »

Are they really going down a romantic route with Grey Worm too? Dear god...

...because he spoke to a woman?

ibarelycare

Mickeroo wrote: »

Also, I think the show is gradually becoming better than the books. There I said it. :pac:

Agree! Part of me wishes I hadn't read the books now


I also thought that was Coldhands making an appearance with the baby



Regarding the "revelation" that Craster's sons are turned into WWs, this is heavily hinted at in the books after Craster and Mormont are killed. One of Craster's wives begs Sam to take Gilly and the baby before "they" do.

“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

longhalloween

Mousewar wrote: »

...because he spoke to a woman?

Someone said in a previous thread he was going to get romantic with Dany too.

Kunkka

Mousewar wrote: »

...because he spoke to a woman?

Not just that there was a strange look they gave eachother in the first episode too which was also flagged here.

Burt Macklin

So this is a very good opportunity to introduce Coldhands, unless they decide to have Jon rescue Bran. Speaking of which, the ominous music that played when Locke volunteered was a bit silly I thought.

alwald

Have I missed something?? maybe it's just my memory but I think that in the books Ser Barristan and Jorah Mormont were supposed to go through the sewer of Mereen.....I am just wondering how the betrayal part will play now. I love all the deviations from the books .

TimeToShine

When you think about it there are people who have been reading this series for well over 10 years and tbh to have it spoiled on screen is a disgrace tbh. GRRM is as much to blame as anyone. Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, especially if HBO have a contract that essentially forces his hand.

I understand that most readers think deviation is a quite interesting novelty but for people who have been following this series for a while it really won't do. They're going mad over on AFOIAF and rightly so.

alwald

TimeToShine wrote: »

Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, especially if HBO have a contract that essentially forces his hand.

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

Witcher

alwald wrote: »

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

The show would sell even better if he actually released the books in that case because a lot of the books readers will drop off from next season on because of spoilers.

lynski

TimeToShine wrote: »

Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, .

Wow, I think that is a very entitled statement. if the man never releases another book ad spends the rest of his life fishing it is no ones business but his. he is under obligation to noone.

i think it is a bit rich for anyone to be crying spoilers at this stage as the whole show is a spolier for non-book readers.

username123

TimeToShine wrote: »

I understand that most readers think deviation is a quite interesting novelty but for people who have been following this series for a while it really won't do. They're going mad over on AFOIAF and rightly so.

Why? Bit of an overreaction if you ask me. No one is being forced to watch the tv show, if they want the story delivered through book format only all they have to do is, eh, not watch the show.

TimeToShine

alwald wrote: »

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

I would put my house on it that he doesn't have the books finished. It took him 5 years to release ADWD FFS and even then there was a heap of filler in it (Quentyn anyone?) without that many plot lines being resolved.

TimeToShine

lynski wrote: »

Wow, I think that is a very entitled statement. if the man never releases another book ad spends the rest of his life fishing it is no ones business but his. he is under obligation to anyone.

i think it is a bit rich for anyone to be crying spoilers at this stage as the whole show is a spolier for non-book readers.

Hang on a sec, it's not fair saying that I am "entitled". I've only been reading the books for a few years (granted I started the year before the TV show but it's still not that long) so I don't think I personally am entitled to anything. It's the people who have been following him since the 90's, die hard fans who have dissected every last bit of his storyline in an attempt to find meaning that are being screwed over. If you think they're not "entitled" to have years of faith rewarded with the story being finished how it began then we have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. He is also arguably under obligation to himself to finish what he started but that's neither here nor there really.

I don't understand your last comment tbh, the show isn't a spoiler for non-book readers because this is the medium they have chosen to invest their time through.

Burt Macklin

alwald wrote: »

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

What makes him think that GRRM hasn't finished the books? Well maybe the five year gap between the third and fourth book or the six year wait for ADWD which was supposed to arrive in 2006.

There is no way HBO are delying him, how would that improve their viewing figures? Book readers are still watching the show as it stands.

If anything, I'd say HBO would want the last two books out as soon as possible so they can have clearer idea of the future of the show.

Mickeroo

TimeToShine wrote: »

When you think about it there are people who have been reading this series for well over 10 years and tbh to have it spoiled on screen is a disgrace tbh. GRRM is as much to blame as anyone. Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, especially if HBO have a contract that essentially forces his hand.

I understand that most readers think deviation is a quite interesting novelty but for people who have been following this series for a while it really won't do. They're going mad over on AFOIAF and rightly so.

I think people just need to get over it tbh. GRRM owes nobody anything and the makers of the show are only concerned with the show, and rightly so.

Also GRRM is a notoriously slow writer and it's been pretty apparent from last season that certain things in the book are going to clarified sooner than in the book and that the show will eventually overtake the books, if anyone really has a problem with that then they should just stop watching the show imo.

Also, to be fair I think the only things that have been "ruined" so far are the theories about Jeyne Westerling and any theories about Oleanna not being the one who killed Joffrey. I think it's a bit rich for folks to be annoyed about the show "ruining" what turned out to be nothing more than theories thought up by the fans in the first place.

TimeToShine

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think people just need to get over it tbh. GRRM owes nobody anything and the makers of the show are only concerned with the show, and rightly so.

Also GRRM is a notoriously slow writer and it's been pretty apparent from last season that certain things in the book are going to clarified sooner in the book and that the show will eventually overtake the books, if anyone really has a problem with that then they should just stop watching the show imo.

Also, to be fair I think the only things that have been "ruined" so far are the theories about Jeyne Westerling and any theories about Oleanna not being the one who killed Joffrey. I think it's a bit rich for folks to be annoyed about the show "ruining" what turned out to be nothing more than theories thought up by the fans in the first place.

I agree to some extent but as the shows goes on more and more will have to be revealed. If it is indeed the case that the show overtakes the books I would at least expect a public apology, I like the show a lot but given the choice between it and the book I'll take the latter every time (as would most book readers).

I also really don't like the "stop watching the show" argument. It's very dismissive of the problem at hand and rather than discuss the issue it opts to ignore it by effectively telling anyone with a problem to **** off

alwald

Burt Macklin wrote: »

There is no way HBO are delaying him, how would that improve their viewing figures. Book readers are still watching the show as it stands.

the surprise factor about how it's going to end and what will happen to each single character in the show.
Do you really think that HBO would like to have everything spoiled way before the release of the last season and the last episode?
The only way to create the buzz and have people/media/social media...talk about the show is by leaving all the question marks unanswered until the last few episodes of the final season.

TimeToShine

alwald wrote: »

the surprise factor about how it's going to end and what will happen to each single character in the show.
Do you really think that HBO would like to have everything spoiled way before the release of the last season and the last episode?
The only way to create the buzz and have people/media/social media...talk about the show is by leaving all the question marks unanswered until the last few episodes of the final season.

Are you saying you think the books will be released after the show ends deliberately? If true that would make GRRM a complete and utter sellout. The plot has always been out there, it's up to show watchers to be careful and avoid it. Why would that suddenly change?

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

I agree to some extent but as the shows goes on more and more will have to be revealed. If it is indeed the case that the show overtakes the books I would at least expect a public apology, I like the show a lot but given the choice between it and the book I'll take the latter every time (as would most book readers).

I also really don't like the "stop watching the show" argument. It's very dismissive of the problem at hand and rather than discuss the issue it opts to ignore it by effectively telling anyone with a problem to **** off

We tell book readers not to read this thread. Is that dismissing the problem for them? Don't watch the show if it's causing you this much grief and wait for the books.

Public apology for what?