Ruling here?

Slicemeister

Played an open with a fellow I hadn't met before. Turned out he was a bit of a win at all costs kinda guy. Standing in my line of vision, on phone, commenting on my swing. None of it bothered me as I kept him off the box and paid him no heed.

Twice it happened where I was in the rough off a drive and twice he found my ball. Now to identify it he'd lift it,we'd confirm and he'd put it down again. Only both times my ball looked like it was plugged(he replaced outside the pitch marks, or craters). This was done both times before I got within 10 foot of him.Mud balls twice and twice I played them as he had put them.

Any opinions? He almost certainly did it intentionally and I really wanted to call him on it.

Never returned his card either.

John Divney

There's no penalty but it must be considered bad form, I'd say since I have no way of knowing whether the ball was put back correctly would you stop effing picking my ball up.

That would seriously have knocked me off my stride, sounds like a complete arsehole with the swing advice and phone

PARlance

Slicemeister wrote: »

Played an open with a fellow I hadn't met before. Turned out he was a bit of a win at all costs kinda guy. Standing in my line of vision, on phone, commenting on my swing. None of it bothered me as I kept him off the box and paid him no heed.

Twice it happened where I was in the rough off a drive and twice he found my ball. Now to identify it he'd lift it,we'd confirm and he'd put it down again. Only both times my ball looked like it was plugged(he replaced outside the pitch marks, or craters). This was done both times before I got within 10 foot of him.Mud balls twice and twice I played them as he had put them.

Any opinions? He almost certainly did it intentionally and I really wanted to call him on it.

Never returned his card either.

You think he was intentionally assisting you Slice?
Or do you think you should have had the opportunity to clean them if plugged?
It kinda reads like that.

You're only allowed relief from a ball plugged in the rough if there's a local rule in place.

Norfolk Enchants_

John Divney wrote: »

There's no penalty but it must be considered bad form, I'd say since I have no way of knowing whether the ball was put back correctly would you stop effing picking my ball up.

That would seriously have knocked me off my stride, sounds like a complete arsehole with the swing advice and phone

There is a penalty and it's rule 12-2 iirc, if the penalty applies to the player then I can't see why it wouldn't apply to a fellow competitor, although I'm not 100% on that but I'd imagine it follows common sense, that you can't go around willy nilly touching your and other peoples balls.

Slicemeister wrote: »

Played an open with a fellow I hadn't met before. Turned out he was a bit of a win at all costs kinda guy. Standing in my line of vision, on phone, commenting on my swing. None of it bothered me as I kept him off the box and paid him no heed.

Twice it happened where I was in the rough off a drive and twice he found my ball. Now to identify it he'd lift it,we'd confirm and he'd put it down again. Only both times my ball looked like it was plugged(he replaced outside the pitch marks, or craters). This was done both times before I got within 10 foot of him.Mud balls twice and twice I played them as he had put them.

Any opinions? He almost certainly did it intentionally and I really wanted to call him on it.

Never returned his card either.

There is a rule to cover lifting for ID purposes and it's 12-2.

Quoted from the RANDA

12-2 - Lifting Ball for Identification


The responsibility for playing the proper ball rests with the player. Each
player should put an identification mark on his ball.


If a player believes that a ball at rest might be his, but he cannot identify
it, the player may lift the ball for identification, without penalty. The right
to lift a ball for identification is in addition to the actions permitted under
Rule 12-1.

Before lifting the ball, the player must announce his intention to his
opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play and mark the position of the ball. He may then lift the ball and identify it, provided that he gives his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor an opportunity to observe the lifting and replacement. The ball must not be cleaned beyond the extent necessary for identification when lifted under Rule 12-2.

If the ball is the player’s ball and he fails to comply with all or any part
of this procedure, or he lifts his ball in order to identify it without good
reason to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the lifted ball is the
player’s ball, he must replace it. If he fails to do so, he incurs the general
penalty for a breach of Rule 12-2, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule.

Note: If the original lie of a ball to be replaced has been altered, see Rule
20-3b.


*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 12-2:


Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.


*If a player incurs the general penalty for a breach of Rule 12-2, there is
no additional penalty under this Rule.

It's always a tricky situation when you are playing with a stranger in an open and something like this occurs, it's usually best to approach in a calm and reasonable manner (you have to remember you have to play with said villian for the rest of the round), when it first happens you could enquire from him is he aware of the procedure for lifting a ball for ID purposes, if he is not then you can politely inform him of the procedure, the vast majority of people are happy to be made aware of a rule they previously were not aware of.
If it happens again, well that's when the fun begins!:pac::pac:.
As for not returing the card, if he's a category 4 player it doesn't really matter, but it's a very bad habit to get into, plus every player has a responsibilty (as outlined by CONGU) to return a card for any competitive round regardless of score.

Slicemeister

PARlance wrote: »

You think he was intentionally assisting you Slice?
Or do you think you should have had the opportunity to clean them if plugged?
It kinda reads like that.

You're only allowed relief from a ball plugged in the rough if there's a local rule in place.

More than likely knew what he was doing, and local rules is a clean and drop from a plugged lie.

Scratch that he knew full well. Was fair peed off second time around as first time I put it down as a one off.

FixdePitchmark

I think you were playing with me.(Joking)

Bad he was on phone. Wasn't during a shot ?
What do you mean kept him off box. Can you do that ?

Is there a chance he was trying to be helpful in finding your balls twice but not know rules
?

He just sounds like a fella who doesn't know he is doing any wrong.

Not " win at all costs ".

What did he say about your swing.

I think people are a bit touchy about that.
I'll tell someone if they have a nice swing.

Slicemeister

John Divney wrote: »

There's no penalty but it must be considered bad form, I'd say since I have no way of knowing whether the ball was put back correctly would you stop effing picking my ball up.

That would seriously have knocked me off my stride, sounds like a complete arsehole with the swing advice and phone

Oh I was tempted!! If anything it focussed me more to keep him off the next box whilst complimenting myself out loud " always great to par a mudball" :-) (only the second time though). His antics backfired cos his game went to pot for a finish.

@Norfolk that link doesn't mention a second party lifting a ball for id purposes no?

John Divney

Norfolk, it's moving 'another players' ball for Id, it carries no penalty under 18-4

You can't lift your own ball like that

To me this rule is one that slipped by, fair enough no penalty for moving another players ball while searching, but IMO the player should have to ask first to lift another players ball

How can he know the ball went back as it lied, a fundamental pillar of the game?

Slicemeister

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think you were playing with me.(Joking)

Bad he was on phone. Wasn't during a shot ?
What do you mean kept him off box. Can you do that ?

Is there a chance he was trying to be helpful in finding your balls twice but not know rules
?

He just sounds like a fella who doesn't know he is doing any wrong.

Not " win at all costs ".

What did he say about your swing.

I think people are a bit touchy about that.
I'll tell someone if they have a nice swing.

All those were my thoughts originally too fix!!
Just the more it went on the more it couldn't have been anything but loutish behaviour(59 years old and a member since before I was born-his words,I'm 41!! ).
The phone thing happened going down the third, me on the downswing of a bladed 8 iron!!
Off the box to me means having the honour having won the previous hole.

Normally don't listen to what anyone says about my swing, it's not that good! But when you get "I see what you're all about.the fade." "Your putts seem to hop a lot" " you're off what again" you begin to think to yourself, what a langer.

SnowDrifts

Slicemeister wrote: »

All those were my thoughts originally too fix!!
Just the more it went on the more it couldn't have been anything but loutish behaviour(59 years old and a member since before I was born-his words,I'm 41!! ).
The phone thing happened going down the third, me on the downswing of a bladed 8 iron!!
Off the box to me means having the honour having won the previous hole.

Normally don't listen to what anyone says about my swing, it's not that good! But when you get "I see what you're all about.the fade." "Your putts seem to hop a lot" " you're off what again" you begin to think to yourself, what a langer.

Sounds like a complete a**hole. I'm glad I haven't come across many characters like him.

Regarding the lifting to identify, the above scenario just proves that best practice is for the player to identify his own ball after notifying his partner of his intentions of doing so.

His actions definitely sounds suspect but it's one of those ones that is just impossible to prove.

ForeRight

Identifying your ball is nothing to do with him. He shouldn't be touching it IMO

Slicemeister

Just 're read Norfolks post there so it looks like I should've penalised myself two strokes on each count for not replacing my own ball yes?

PARlance

Slicemeister wrote: »

Just 're read Norfolks post there so it looks like I should've penalised myself two strokes on each count for not replacing my own ball yes?

If he has lifted it and said he has replaced it back in the same spot then there's no penalty for either of ye.

I think the only chance of you being penalised is that if you played it and were virtually certain you played it from the wrong spot. Seeing that you were away from the incident you can't be virtually certain and have to take his word for it.

It's just bad form on his behalf.

How could it be a penalty to you in fairness.
There would be killings on the course with lads running up to other lads balls, identifying them so their opponent/competitor got a 2 stroke penalty or lost the hole

Norfolk Enchants_

John Divney wrote: »

Norfolk, it's moving 'another players' ball for Id, it carries no penalty under 18-4

You can't lift your own ball like that

To me this rule is one that slipped by, fair enough no penalty for moving another players ball while searching, but IMO the player should have to ask first to lift another players ball

How can he know the ball went back as it lied, a fundamental pillar of the game?

Yes it appears you're right John, although I would have thought it leaves it wide open to abuse by unscrupulous types.

Norfolk Enchants_

Slicemeister wrote: »

Just 're read Norfolks post there so it looks like I should've penalised myself two strokes on each count for not replacing my own ball yes?

No, no penalty for you, I was suggesting that there maybe should have been a penalty for him, either way I've emailed the RANDA seeking clarification and will post the reply.

John Divney

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Yes it appears you're right John, although I would have thought it leaves it wide open to abuse by unscrupulous types.

Yeah, it's strange because how to lift drop or if you can clean a ball is so well thought about, and this rule is quite open to abuse.

You can go looking for someone's ball in match play and lift it, put if down in an unplayable lie, and how can you be called on it?

The word 'move' is the rule, 'lift' is a big difference to just moving by foot, or standing on it by accident.

PARlance

I suppose the only way you could get penalised is if the opposing player was extremely underhand.

Scenario:
Both of you are at the ball but he grabs it to identify it for you.
He knowingly places it in a different spot, a few cm's away in the hope that you may not notice.
If he says nothing and you hit it, I think he could call a penalty on you by saying..."oh golly Matty , I didn't place that back properly"

A penalty and you might have to call the ambulance after you're done with him

It'd be a little bit like asking someone to move their marker on the green in the hope that it isn't moved back correctly.
Edit: not that it's bad form to ask someone to move their marker, but I've heard a few stories, maybe myths, that some lads will ask for a move in Matchplay when it mightn't really be needed with that outcome in mind.

Norfolk Enchants_

John Divney wrote: »

Yeah, it's strange because how to lift drop or if you can clean a ball is so well thought about, and this rule is quite open to abuse.

You can go looking for someone's ball in match play and lift it, put if down in an unplayable lie, and how can you be called on it?

The word 'move' is the rule, 'lift' is a big difference to just moving by foot, or standing on it by accident.

Yes it could be the case the 12-2 refers only to "lift" and 18-4 refers only to "move", and in the OP's example he clearly lifted it for ID in which case I think my intial assement may be correct.
It'll be interesting to see what the RANDA reply is.

FixdePitchmark

What an arse -

Is it a bit unusual that a member was playing at an Open on a Saturday.

Do you think that is what he was at ?

As in didn't think he should be playing with a visitor - how come an open on a Saturday ?

Slicemeister

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What an arse -

Is it a bit unusual that a member was playing at an Open on a Saturday.

Do you think that is what he was at ?

This was Wednesday. He was a member, as am I only since January. What I also noticed and not at the time was the reluctance of other members to engage him, no matter how loud he shouted between fairways. He wouldn't have known from the timesheet.Your theory is close to mine I feel :-)

FixdePitchmark

Yes maybe I'm looking too deep into the arsehole.

But - is it a club where there is bad feeling towards new members. I find it interesting that he went on about how long he is there.

Hard to rationalise an arse i guess.

Normally a childhood thing.

Slicemeister

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes maybe I'm looking too deep into the arsehole.

But - is it a club where there is bad feeling towards new members. I find it interesting that he went on about how long he is there.

Hard to rationalise an arse i guess.

Normally a childhood thing.

jaysus fix there's people paying good money up and down the country for those diagnostics lol. He'd get it free here..
First I've come across as regards the new member thing, I played a good few comps there last year as a visitor.only thing I can think of is I am paying a substantial deal less than him as a new distance member so that might have been a bee in his bonnet,dunno.
had asked him how long he was a member. Won't be forgetting his name in a hurry!!

FixdePitchmark

Slicemeister wrote: »

jaysus fix there's people paying good money up and down the country for those diagnostics lol. He'd get it free here..
First I've come across as regards the new member thing, I played a good few comps there last year as a visitor.only thing I can think of is I am paying a substantial deal less than him as a new distance member so that might have been a bee in his bonnet,dunno.
had asked him how long he was a member. Won't be forgetting his name in a hurry!!

Yes - I've seen this replicated and talked to a few people. Some lads who joined the clubs from years ago - feel they built a club , put money into it for years. They hate the idea of lads coming in and getting it with no entry money. These lads are keeping the club open.

I've seen other lads who , are only delighted to get new members , for subs - full stop.

It is a jealously thing. But, there can be real resentment too. There are also other lads - who just don't like new lads at all, they may have a comfy life and certain tee time - Have a place on club teams , they see you as a threat. One of those lads is staring me out of it at the moment.

These lads are rare - most are sound. 95 % sound.

But at an EGM to get rid of hello money , I heard a lad say " You couldn't take lads in off the street like that "
It was like something out of Apartheid.

I knew he was one of them type of lads, you bumped into.
It is clear the inference from what he said to you.

So not unusual. Yes maybe 1 or 2 in 50 - but enough to bump into them.

At start - I was like , ok what is this about . But , now - I wouldn't take any ****. These lads need to know , sorry buddy - not going anywhere. Times have changed.

You were spot on.

As always, I will give the benefit of the doubt. But.........

SaveOurLyric

On another point :

If the 'commenting on my swing' could have been considered to be offering 'advice' (whether you considered the advice beneficial or not is by the way), then he should have been penalised two strokes each time he commented. You would not have penalised yourself the first time he commented, but had you not pointed out to him that you did not want to receive advice, then you also would have to penalise yourself 2 shots on each subsequent occasion he gave it.

FixdePitchmark

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

On another point :

If the 'commenting on my swing' could have been considered to be offering 'advice' (whether you considered the advice beneficial or not is by the way), then he should have been penalised two strokes each time he commented. You would not have penalised yourself the first time he commented, but had you not pointed out to him that you did not want to receive advice, then you also would have to penalise yourself 2 shots on each subsequent occasion he gave it.

lol

SaveOurLyric

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

lol

Hey, you can play by the rules or not.
In my experience most people dont. But dont even realise they aren't. And care less.

Freemount09

Slicemeister wrote: »

But when you get "I see what you're all about.the fade." what a langer.

Did you tell him your username here OP ?


He dose sound like a right langer alright ! You should never touch another mans balls, on and off the golf course !

whizbang

I believe its quite common practice, to lift your (friendly) competitors ball, and tee it up nicely for him. Maybe just being nice, technically no penalty, but the game keeps moving on without any delays.

and of course, you will reciprocate...!

I have seen it happen on more than one occasion,

ForeRight

whizbang wrote: »

I believe its quite common practice, to lift your (friendly) competitors ball, and tee it up nicely for him. Maybe just being nice, technically no penalty, but the game keeps moving on without any delays.

and of course, you will reciprocate...!

I have seen it happen on more than one occasion,

Common practice!!!!

So cheating is common practice where you play?

Norfolk Enchants_

Below is the reply from the RANDA

Dear

---

Thanks for your reply.



Rule 12-2 applies to the player when the player, himself, wishes to lift his ball for identification purposes. Therefore, it does not apply to a fellow-competitor.



In this situation, the fellow-competitor has found the ball and simply lifted the player’s ball in play so Rule 18-4 applies. There is no penalty and the ball must be replaced (back in the plugged lie if applicable). The player may then take relief under the respective Local Rule if required.



If a fellow-competitor did this regularly, there could be implications under Rule 1-2 if the reasons for lifting the ball was to alter playing conditions. Consequently, a reminder to the fellow-competitor that if they find a ball they should not touch it but ask the player to come along and identify it would be practical.



I hope that this is of assistance.



Kind regards

Shona



SHONA McRAE

Assistant Director - Rules

The R&A, St Andrews, Fife, Scotland, KY16 9JD

Tel: +44 (0) 1334 460000; Fax: +44 (0) 1334 460003