dog recall

Roycropper63

not sure if this is in the proper section but mods please move,,,

have a 13 month old cocker bitch and up to about 6 wks ago was very well behaved while off the lead,,,most weekends we are up the woods and now with the bright evenings, daily walks on either farmland or woods...

6 wks ago while walking she returned with a live small rabbit in her mouth,,,managed to get her to drop it,, unhurt and it ran away...

now my problem is she wont come when called when on the scent,,, tail going like a spinner..... a pal of mine who hunts with springers took her out a few days and is now trained to come on whistle, which she does unless on a scent..


as the woods i walk in has a lot of deer etc i cant walk her if she wont come back to me,,,cant chase through the woods after her...


anyone any ideas on how to distract her when on a scent....didnt think a cocker would be so prey aware,,,,,,,

thanks for taking time to read this post

Roy

cocker5

Roycropper63 wrote: »

not sure if this is in the proper section but mods please move,,,

have a 13 month old cocker bitch and up to about 6 wks ago was very well behaved while off the lead,,,most weekends we are up the woods and now with the bright evenings, daily walks on either farmland or woods...

6 wks ago while walking she returned with a live small rabbit in her mouth,,,managed to get her to drop it,, unhurt and it ran away...

now my problem is she wont come when called when on the scent,,, tail going like a spinner..... a pal of mine who hunts with springers took her out a few days and is now trained to come on whistle, which she does unless on a scent..


as the woods i walk in has a lot of deer etc i cant walk her if she wont come back to me,,,cant chase through the woods after her...


anyone any ideas on how to distract her when on a scent....didnt think a cocker would be so prey aware,,,,,,,

thanks for taking time to read this post

Roy

OP, going to be very honest and I say not sure if you can distract from instinct.

I have a male cocker (9 on Saturday) , his recall to very good EXCEPT when he has a scent… it doesn’t matter what we do, try, he is soooo drawn to the scent he’s gone.
We’ve tried everything treats, sausages, cheese, had him hungry when out off lead etc. so he would LOVE a sausage but no the scent takes over from everything, he doesn’t hear us, or see us when he’s got a scent.

Those cockers and their nose, it’s very annoying!!

Hope somebody can help you but from my experience a long retraceable lead may be your only option!

cocker5

ps post a pic of your little cocker.. no one can resist their gorgeous face

Mince Pie

Aye, I'm following this thread myself. I have a lurcher and NOTHING will bring her back once she has the scent of a rabbit.

Graces7

Mince Pie wrote: »

Aye, I'm following this thread myself. I have a lurcher and NOTHING will bring her back once she has the scent of a rabbit.

does not just apply to scents. when we lived even two fields away from a quiet road and collie heard a car , no stopping her or getting her back until it had passed. we used to go home and wait for her!

usually as this morning when the council men were here her recall is instant and perfect.

Ashbx

We used to have this problem with my border terrier when she was younger (she is 3 now and thankfully she tends to be a lot more attentive to me). My only suggestion I have is to teach her the look command so she looks directly into your eyes. Wen I do this training with Chip I use the best treats for this particular command because she knows ok when I sit, I get a bit of kibble but if I look at her, I get some sausage!

I cant guarantee that it will work because as one of the posters says, you are trying to fight her instinct which is nearly impossible! I use the look command very rarely with Chip only when I really need her. She has a tendancy of eating other dogs poo and "look" gets used a lot in this instance but she knows there is something good in store for her!

tk123

My dog is the same when he smells bread - my solution was to clip him to my pup! He was less inclined to do a runner when he had the baby attached to him lol! :pac:

Graces7

tk123 wrote: »

My dog is the same when he smells bread - my solution was to clip him to my pup! He was less inclined to do a runner when he had the baby attached to him lol! :pac:

brilliant.. can just see my collie tearing across a field with wee short legged jrt bassett cross trying to keep up..:p

Lyssa

One of our cockers was going mad in the back of the shed the other day, and I thought it was a mouse or rat.. Turned out to be a huge bumblebee sh was after...
Her pup is 8 months old, and his nose/lip is slightly raw at the moment from sniffing the ground, walls, anything ALL the time... Cockers nose is very sensitive, and the have a hunting instinct in them.

No advice OP, I'm sure others here have better training tips than I do!

Roycropper63

many thanks for the replies,,,,have bought a flexi lead this evening for woods etc,, farm land i walk on is fine as only cattle no sheep...

just wondering how the hunting/shooting lads control their dogs when out etc......

Tropheus

We have a Beagle that continuously has his nose to the ground. I wouldn't even think of letting him off the lead in an open area as I know he would be gone. Once he has a scent of something, I can't even get his attention when he's on the lead so would have no chance if he's off it. I know people with Beagles have had mixed success with recall. Some manage it and some don't. I've tried and I'm definitely one of the latter.

convert

Roycropper63 wrote: »

many thanks for the replies,,,,have bought a flexi lead this evening for woods etc,, farm land i walk on is fine as only cattle no sheep....

Unfortunately for you, your dog's instinct seems to have kicked in, and it is extremely difficult to get them to drop a scent to come back to you. To them, the smell of something is much more exciting than the possibility of any reward you can offer. It's probably safer to keep her on the lead while you're walking her - far better to be safe than sorry.

Btw, dogs can also chase/attack cattle, and especially calves, so please be careful when walking your dog off lead near any livestock. Cows can become especially protective (i.e. vicious ) when they have young, and I've seen cows attack dogs who they deem a threat (instinct kicking in). The last thing you want is your dog to get injured, either by livestock or a farmer protecting his livestock, or to have a farmer coming after you for damage that your dog may have caused. Even worrying cattle, sheep and horses is enough to cause the female to abort.

fatmammycat

Roycropper63 wrote: »

many thanks for the replies,,,,have bought a flexi lead this evening for woods etc,, farm land i walk on is fine as only cattle no sheep...

just wondering how the hunting/shooting lads control their dogs when out etc......

I think a lot of hunters use e-collars for long distance recall or animal/livestock proofing. There's an interesting article here on recall. This is the 3rd part of the discussion, so it includes parts one and two, and suggests e-collars for the most stubborn of dogs or for curbing dangerous or unwanted activities.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dogs/Dog-Recall-Part-III-Finger-on-the-Button.html

Flippyfloppy

Perhaps use strong treats for recall on scent while on retractable lead ?

DBB

Jayney fatmammycat, it's not often I disagree with you, but going straight for the jugular with an e-collar as your first advisory post in this thread? I know you qualify it by saying it's used for the most stubborn dogs, but as an opening gambit on a site where so many people come looking for recall advice, who believe their young, untrained dog is being stubborn, when in fact it's just not been trained properly? Too many people come on here already thinking of using e-collars... I fear if they read such posts they'll all too readily make up their minds.
I know quite a few gundog men and women, and not many of them use e-collars... Those that do are almost invariably those who are not good at training dogs.
OP, cockers are working dogs (do you know is yours from working lines?), following a scent is, for them, as natural and as necessary as breathing. A fella working a cocker or Springer will dedicate a lot of their training to teaching the dog a stop... Whether that's to literally stop moving forward, or a sit, or a down. They will start the dog off in the easiest of environments, and work and work on this (as well as other commands, no harm in you doing the same for your dog to satisfy those genetic urges and harness that nose), gradually building in distractions, new scents etc. A long-line (not a retractable lead) is a vital bit of kit for outdoor work, especially where the dog is in the early and middle stages of training. It must only be used attached to a regular harness, not a collar. Your dog should not be allowed access to freedom in "scenty" areas without the long-line until he is much improved: allowing him to rehearse ignoring you will water your training down.
It can be very useful to get your dog "addicted" to a toy... Squeaky tennis balls are a regular favourite: play religiously with toys like this, attaching a cue word just before you throw the ball, or do anything that involves you producing the ball to interact with your dog. This cue word should become extremely powerful as an attention-grabber for your dog once the "addiction" is formed. The ball, once addictive, can then be hidden so that your dog can go find it, following your scent trail, one way of harnessing that nose.
Bear in mind that spaniels are meant to work near their handler and to be in constant contact with their handler.... Your dog does not need to be nor should be let do any long-ranging as other gundog breeds are expected to do. It is much harder to maintain control of them once they've gone too far away and contact is lost.
You could do worse than enlist the help of a good, experienced trainer too, just to help you put it all together coherently. But do make sure they're good!

fatmammycat

DBB wrote: »

Jayney fatmammycat, it's not often I disagree with you, but going straight for the jugular with an e-collar? As an opening gambit on a site where so many people come looking for recall advice? With a youngster who is unlikely to have been trained anywhere near fully at this stage?
I know quite a few gundog men and women, and not many of them use e-collars... Those that do are almost invariably those who are not good at training dogs.
OP, cockers are working dogs (do you know is yours from working lines?), following a scent is, for them, as natural and as necessary as breathing. A fella working a cocker or Springer will dedicate a lot of their training to teaching the dog a stop... Whether that's to literally stop moving forward, or a sit, or a down. They will start the dog off in the easiest of environments, and work and work on this (as well as other commands, no harm in you doing the same for your dog to satisfy those genetic urges and harness that nose), gradually building in distractions, new scents etc. A long-line (not a retractable lead) is a vital bit of kit for outdoor work, especially where the dog is in the early and middle stages of training. It must only be used attached to a regular harness, not a collar. Your dog should not be allowed access to freedom in "scenty" areas without the long-line until he is much improved: allowing him to rehearse ignoring you will water your training down.
It can be very useful to get your dog "addicted" to a toy... Squeaky tennis balls are a regular favourite: play religiously with toys like this, attaching a cue word just before you throw the ball, or do anything that involves you producing the ball to interact with your dog. This cue word should become extremely powerful as an attention-grabber for your dog once the "addiction" is formed. The ball, once addictive, can then be hidden so that your dog can go find it, following your scent trail, one way of harnessing that nose.
Bear in mind that spaniels are meant to work near their handler and to be in constant contact with their handler.... Your dog does not need to be nor should be let do any long-ranging as other gundog breeds are expected to do. It is much harder to maintain control of them once they've gone too far away and contact is lost.
You could do worse than enlist the help of a good, experienced trainer too, just to help you put it all together coherently. But do make sure they're good!

It wasn't really straight to the jugular, so much as answering a question asked, and that piece I quoted is very much the last part of a much longer process with parts one and two outlined first.I take your point though, and let me clarify OP, the e-collar was not touted as a first port of call solution.

That said, I'm actually not against e-collars being used if used properly, I'd rather a bomb proof recall than an injured, lost or shot dog.
I no longer believe there is a one size fits all method to dog training and while I'm a huge advocate of positive training, and indeed have trained my own dogs thus, I also believe there is a place for adversive/ pressure -release training which would be dog dependent - but if you feel this is not the forum for it I will of course, respectfully, not mention it again.

tk123

There's a good few working dogs - springers especially - walked in a park we go to. All of them trained to whistle and hand signals.. so i can be done even when they're on a scent! The park in question if full of rabbits lol !

DBB

fatmammycat wrote: »

That said, I'm actually not against e-collars being used if used properly, I'd rather a bomb proof recall than an injured, lost or shot dog.
I no longer believe there is a one size fits all method to dog training and while I'm a huge advocate of positive training, and indeed have trained my own dogs thus, I also believe there is a place for adversive/ pressure -release training which would be dog dependent - but if you feel this is not the forum for it I will of course, respectfully, not mention it again.

I'm not trying to stifle opinion, but I do feel that use of any aversive training, if you're that way inclined, needs to be done with enormous care and consideration to prevent abuse and welfare issues, and most of all, with a level of skill that's just not appropriate for many pet owners.
To advocate the use of training that requires such skill and precision to be done properly, without causing too much lasting harm, in a general forum where people just need help with their oul pet dog, well, there's a time and a place, and when it comes to pet dog owners on an internet forum, I don't believe that this is the time or place. We have a responsibility, as ethical dog trainers, to do no harm.
I'm not a one-size-fits-all trainer either, I use an extremely wide variety of techniques, but they are always ethical, and are not open easily to abuse, as pressure/release training can be (as it relies on negative reinforcement). In the very, very worst cases of predatory chasing or livestock-chasing, having gone through an intensive, ethical rehabilitation, the vast majority of dogs can be cured. For the ones that still chase animals at the end of it all, there is one final step to take which is aversive, but it is done with extreme care and consideration by a highly practised behaviourist, never the owner, it is highly transitory, and it does not involve the use of any electric shock.
Besides which, the link you provided speaks of being the "leader", using "check cords", fails to appreciate the nuances nor drawbacks of aversive training, and is actually pretty poor at describing how to effectively teach the recall in the early stages... It's very woolly indeed. Were I trying to advocate the methods used, I wouldn't be using this guy's site as a starting point.

223vmax

Don't just jump to the e-collar but repeatedly work on recall in your garden. Use a check cord if the dog doesn't respond positively 100% of the time and use treats when the dog return - not just food treats but heavy praise every time he comes back to you.

I have a couple of springer spaniels that are trained to flush game and retrieve on command - not just when dog thinks he can. Majority of folks in this forum hate e-collars, however, when used correctly they work extremely well for training in this situation.

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

Majority of folks in this forum hate e-collars, however, when used correctly they work extremely well for training in this situation.

It irks me when people cast out this "folks here hate e-collars" line. There's a reason they're disliked. Actually, many reasons. I'm not getting into yet another debate about it here, but the biggest factor to consider is this line used so often by advocates of aversive training gear or methods:

"When used correctly they work extremely well"

The problem is that when not used correctly, they cause abuse and welfare issues. And critically, they are all too often and all too easily not used properly. That is the bottom line.
When training dogs, particularly when advising owners how to train their dogs, the methods owners are taught need to be robust enough that even if they're not used quite right, they can do no harm.
Which brings me back to the line that anyone who's advising others on how to train their dogs has one over-arching responsibility, particularly when advising unknown people on an internet forum: whatever you do, do no harm.

223vmax

Its not hard to use one correctly.

Someone that uses one incorrectly in an abusive fashion is also just as likely to take a stick and beat a dog. Bottom line here is that many dog owners have used them correctly and got excellent results.

I remember a thread on here a while ago where a user had a similar problem. The guy was at his wits end with his dog and thinking about giving him up. He mentioned on here about using an e-collar. Most people reverted in an alarming manner. "what ever you do don't use an e-collar"...Eventually after trying other methods for a while he bought an e-collar. Problem solved after a few days!!

Roycropper63

am quite surprised that mine has such a prey drive,,,thought it would have been bred out of her as she was not from shooting stock so to speak..

my springer man is going to continue working with her on recall... when not on hunt will come back to whistle and sit.. so i guess stick with the training. again thanks for the replies

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

Its not hard to use one correctly.

Every single site that describes how to use them, describes how they must be used with "perfect" timing, that "timing is vital". Having taught thousands of owners and their dogs, in my experience the single most important thing that people don't master straight away, is timing. Quite besides that, when your dog is taking off after a herd of cattle, how many owners know at what moment the shock should be delivered in order to achieve maximal learning, thus reducing the number of shocks the dog has to get before he stops chasing? Is it when the dog first notices the cattle? Is it when he has just taken off? Is it when he ignores the owner's call? Is it when he's right next to the cattle? Is it when he grabs hold of a cow? If ten average owners of dogs trained with e-collars can answer this question correctly, I'll concede that the timing of the average owner is better than I have experienced. I don't believe this is going to happen.
So, I beg to differ that it's not hard to use them correctly.

Besides, the science shows that using electronic devices on their lowest setting at first, as recommended by most e-collar manufacturers, is most likely not to work, that invariably the intensity of the shock in many cases, has to be increased again and again. Why? Because low-level aversion is quickly habituated to. Once habtuated, its aversive effects become limited, and learning is no longer happening. If aversion is to be used to greatest effect, it must be quick, and it must be nasty for that individual dog. However, this point is glossed over by both manufacturers and users... Sure if it works, isn't it grand?!

Someone that uses one incorrectly in an abusive fashion is also just as likely to take a stick and beat a dog.

Utter, utter straw-man argument there.
For starters, I don't know too many people who use shock collars that also beat their dogs.
And for seconders, and critically, a huge amount of the problem is that people do not know they are using the collar incorrectly, but believe they are using it correctly
To illustrate, a local gunman to me, who also trains Gundogs and is held as some sort of oracle of dog training by many a gunman who knows no better, uses the e-collar as a recall aid: he presses the button when his dogs are in cover so that their squeals tell him where they are. He sees no problem with this. He also does not beat dogs. He sends out all his clients doing the same thing, much to the amazement of my hunting contacts who, as it happens, neither beat their dogs nor shock them, rather they use good old-fashioned brain power, and win all before them at gundog trials :-)

Bottom line here is that many dog owners have used them correctly and got excellent results.

I never dispute that results can be got. But invariably, that's at quite a price for many a dog, and in the absence of using a robust, diligent, ethical method, is inexcusable and lazy. Many a good gundog was ruined even with the "correct" use of the collar. It's a funny anomaly that gundog men are so quick to use e-collars and take advice from self-titled trainers who are largely clueless, yet I have not yet met a sheepdog trainer who would ever use a shock collar to control a dog who's performing a far more "up close and personal" job with livestock than any pet dog or gundog ever will.

I remember a thread on here a while ago where a user had a similar problem. The guy was at his wits end with his dog and thinking about giving him up. He mentioned on here about using an e-collar. Most people reverted in an alarming manner. "what ever you do don't use an e-collar"...Eventually after trying other methods for a while he bought an e-collar. Problem solved after a few days!!

Ah good! Use one example where a guy got results! Excellent! He may have got results, but without actually being there to assess his dog, nobody here can say that he genuinely did so without any cost to the dog.
And that's the real bottom line. Justify it how you like, if electric shock is used as a training aid, when effective, ethical (but more time consuming... And this is where the laziness creeps in) methods are available, then the trainer has just let the dog down with their lack of proper understanding of how animals most effectively learn.
There's simply no need for them. It's as simple as that.

223vmax

DBB wrote: »

Every single site that describes how to use them, describes how they must be used with "perfect" timing, that "timing is vital". Having taught thousands of owners and their dogs, in my experience the single most important thing that people don't master straight away, is timing. Quite besides that, when your dog is taking off after a herd of cattle, how many owners know at what moment the shock should be delivered in order to achieve maximal learning, thus reducing the number of shocks the dog has to get before he stops chasing? Is it when the dog first notices the cattle? Is it when he has just taken off? Is it when he ignores the owner's call? Is it when he's right next to the cattle? Is it when he grabs hold of a cow? If ten average owners of dogs trained with e-collars can answer this question correctly, I'll concede that the timing of the average owner is better than I have experienced. I don't believe this is going to happen.
So, I beg to differ that it's not hard to use them correctly.

Besides, the science shows that using electronic devices on their lowest setting at first, as recommended by most e-collar manufacturers, is most likely not to work, that invariably the intensity of the shock in many cases, has to be increased again and again. Why? Because low-level aversion is quickly habituated to. Once habtuated, its aversive effects become limited, and learning is no longer happening. If aversion is to be used to greatest effect, it must be quick, and it must be nasty for that individual dog. However, this point is glossed over by both manufacturers and users... Sure if it works, isn't it grand?!



Utter, utter straw-man argument there.
For starters, I don't know too many people who use shock collars that also beat their dogs.
And for seconders, and critically, a huge amount of the problem is that people do not know they are using the collar incorrectly, but believe they are using it correctly
To illustrate, a local gunman to me, who also trains Gundogs and is held as some sort of oracle of dog training by many a gunman who knows no better, uses the e-collar as a recall aid: he presses the button when his dogs are in cover so that their squeals tell him where they are. He sees no problem with this. He also does not beat dogs. He sends out all his clients doing the same thing, much to the amazement of my hunting contacts who, as it happens, neither beat their dogs nor shock them, rather they use good old-fashioned brain power, and win all before them at gundog trials :-)



I never dispute that results can be got. But invariably, that's at quite a price for many a dog, and in the absence of using a robust, diligent, ethical method, is inexcusable and lazy. Many a good gundog was ruined even with the "correct" use of the collar. It's a funny anomaly that gundog men are so quick to use e-collars and take advice from self-titled trainers who are largely clueless, yet I have not yet met a sheepdog trainer who would ever use a shock collar to control a dog who's performing a far more "up close and personal" job with livestock than any pet dog or gundog ever will.




Ah good! Use one example where a guy got results! Excellent! He may have got results, but without actually being there to assess his dog, nobody here can say that he genuinely did so without any cost to the dog.
And that's the real bottom line. Justify it how you like, if electric shock is used as a training aid, when effective, ethical (but more time consuming... And this is where the laziness creeps in) methods are available, then the trainer has just let the dog down with their lack of proper understanding of how animals most effectively learn.
There's simply no need for them. It's as simple as that.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Simple.

Its crazy you writing such a long reply when you know that e-collars can be used with success but wont admit it.

DBB

223vmax wrote: »

You have your opinion, I have mine. Simple.

Its crazy you writing such a long reply when you know that e-collars can be used with success but wont admit it.

Lol, Come off it 223vmax! You're going to find it hard to find any thread on this website where e-collars are discussed where I don't say they don't work! I never post stuff that's not true, even if it's unpalatable to me. I even said it in one post in this thread! But you appear to have completely missed the point of what I've actually said in the process, which is a pity :-)

223vmax

DBB wrote: »

I don't say they don't work! I never post stuff that's not true, even if it's unpalatable to me.

Fair play

Ashbx

DBB wrote: »

Lol, Come off it 223vmax! You're going to find it hard to find any thread on this website where e-collars are discussed where I don't say they don't work! I never post stuff that's not true, even if it's unpalatable to me. I even said it in one post in this thread! But you appear to have completely missed the point of what I've actually said in the process, which is a pity :-)

I defo think the both of you should just agree to disagree! Especially the moderator....a mod should be setting an example for the other posters and allow people have their opinions without shooting them down every single time.

Boards has a lot of feisty people on here!

tk123

Ashbx wrote: »

Boards has a lot of feisty people on here!

It also has a report button to press if you have a problem with a post

DBB

Ashbx wrote: »

I defo think the both of you should just agree to disagree! Especially the moderator....a mod should be setting an example for the other posters and allow people have their opinions without shooting them down every single time.

Boards has a lot of feisty people on here!

Ashbx, it's very unfair of you to make out that I'm not entitled to express my opinion just because I'm a mod! All mods are allowed to post just as every other poster does. Obviously, we should be careful to stick to the forum charter, and I do... I express my opinion clearly and without getting personal. To throw that old mod chestnut at me is unfair and uncalled-for.

This is a discussion forum, where people discuss things. Things can get heated, but as long as posters remain respectful of one another, that's fine. That's what discussion is all about, no? If we go down your route, threads would become pretty short!

With mod hat on for a moment, it's also inappropriate to bring such issues up on-thread... If you've got a problem, either report it or bring it to the feedback forum, where admin can adjudge whether I have done anything out of turn or outside my remit.


For the record, with regard to you saying I'm "shooting people down", it might help you to realise that there's a pretty big difference between shooting people down, and challenging people who continue to post unfounded, unresearched, unsupported advice, particularly when such advice is potentially damaging to the welfare of either dog or owner.
When I post on topics of dog behaviour, I'm not just pulling stuff out of a hat, and I'm not relying on hearsay, anecdote, nor tradition... I'm backed up by a whole lot of science, research, study, and experience. Some people continue to plough their own furrow and post stuff that could be done in a more ethical way, and despite the fact that they've nothing other than anecdote to back themselves up. As long as people do that here, I will continue to counter them with the facts, backed by research and evidence. If you don't like that, feel free to stick me on ignore :-)

Ashbx

DBB - Don't get me wrong, I don't have issues with the content of your comments! Will send you a personal email to explain my points above!