Buying an apartment rather than a house

FURET

Hi All,

My wife and I are weighing up the pros and cons of buying a 3-bedroom apartment vs a 3-bedroom house to live in as a permanent home.

• We have only one child and that's definitely not going to change, so we don't need the additional capacity that a house would provide.
• We could buy an apartment with cash and avoid a mortgage, but we couldn't do it the other way around.
• We speculate that maintenance costs associated with owning a house will outstrip the annual fees associated with owning an apartment.
• We would buy an apartment that's conveniently located, i.e. close to a park, a nice walk area, and offices, thereby mitigating the need for a garden and ensuring low commuting costs.
• We are thinking of using the money saved to buy an apartment in Spain where we could spend six months of the year when we retire. We'd definitely save a lot of cash by not buying a house.

We don't really have the mindset that owning a house is a "must".
I'd love for people here to give me a contrary point of view based on hard facts / problems associated with permanently living in an apartment. We really don't care about having a garden or a place to hang the clothes, or even much about resale value. It's other points that we're looking for.

ChuckProphet

FURET wrote: »

Hi All,

My wife and I are weighing up the pros and cons of buying a 3-bedroom apartment vs a 3-bedroom house to live in as a permanent home.

• We have only one child and that's definitely not going to change, so we don't need the additional capacity that a house would provide.
• We could buy an apartment with cash and avoid a mortgage, but we couldn't do it the other way around.
• We speculate that maintenance costs associated with owning a house will outstrip the annual fees associated with owning an apartment.
• We would buy an apartment that's conveniently located, i.e. close to a park, a nice walk area, and offices, thereby mitigating the need for a garden and ensuring low commuting costs.
• We are thinking of using the money saved to buy an apartment in Spain where we could spend six months of the year when we retire. We'd definitely save a lot of cash by not buying a house.

We don't really have the mindset that owning a house is a "must".
I'd love for people here to give me a contrary point of view based on hard facts / problems associated with permanently living in an apartment. We really don't care about having a garden or a place to hang the clothes, or even much about resale value. It's other points that we're looking for.

Are you sure about the garden? What age is your child? My kids are never out of the garden, especially this time of year. Also they don't really need supervision whereas in a park you'd have to go with them the whole time (if they were young).

I would also wonder about storage in an apartment compared to a house.

While maintenance costs would be less with a house, you'd probably have a maintenance fee in an apartment.

username123

I own and live in a 2 bed apartment for the past 8 years.

Unless you could get a 3 bed apartment in this country that is sufficiently spacious enough with enough community amenities such as you get in other countries with apartment living (like a nice common outdoor area) - I think you will simply find Irish apartments are not a great standard. Ive been in apartments in the US that were quite literally like the set of Friends - big spacious rooms, with a roof terrace accessible for all etc... You just dont get that here.

Anyway, my biggest issue with apartment living is noise. For the most part I have been lucky to have considerate neighbours but there have been situations with people renting in the same block where I live causing enormous problems. One set of tenants in particular made life hell for everyone for a full year with noise, ongoing parties that started at 9pm and went on until 3pm the next day etc... You really have no escape from something like that. Even the ordinary noise of living can be loud in apartments, people run washing machines and dishwashers after 11pm at night and the sound reverberates through the building, you can hear toilets flushing and tvs also.

Maintenance fees are an ongoing expense and what you get for them varies from managed development to managed development.

You are subject to the democratic process (which means every moron has a vote!) so for example - clamping has just been brought in where I live despite very strong objections from a number of residents, the majority were sheep who voted yes for it.

If you have a problem with the building itself it can be a long hard road to get any repair done particularly if the sinking fund is low. I have friends who are subject to roof leaks in apartment blocks with the management company saying there is no money for repairs but refusing to allow any resident have repair work done either.

Less bothersome for me but something that might bother a family with children, the transient nature of apartment living, neighbours come and go, people move on as they outgrow the place - its difficult to develop any sense of community when the faces constantly change.

The above are just my experiences.

Personally I cant wait to get out of apartment living and into a house where I am my own boss about what I am subjected to.

FURET

ChuckProphet wrote: »

Are you sure about the garden? What age is your child? My kids are never out of the garden, especially this time of year. Also they don't really need supervision whereas in a park you'd have to go with them the whole time (if they were young).

I would also wonder about storage in an apartment compared to a house.

While maintenance costs would be less with a house, you'd probably have a maintenance fee in an apartment.

Yes, we're really sure about the garden. It doesn't remotely justify the extra cost for us. We live in Dubai right now (will move back to Ireland in a few years) and know loads of people with small kids who live in apartments and who can't use green spaces anyway due to the heat for half the year. It's not a problem. So we have already carefully considered the-garden-is-important argument and rejected it.

The storage / lack of space argument is definitely worth thinking about though.

username123

Oh - I didnt realise you were talking about Dubai - some of my points may not be valid with a different standard of build in a different country.

dori_dormer

Yeah there really is no storage in apartments. Where do you store the christmas tree and decorations? The suitcases?

Other factors - noisy neighbours. Theres also the huge turnover of neighbours (usually) as tenants come and go. this can sometimes be a safety concern.

Also even with not caring about drying clothes etc sometimes you just want to have a barbeque! or sit outside without being over looked.

Management companies are a pain in the bum! If you own youll be part of this company. Also yearly fees tend to rise. whats 1000 a year this year might be 1200 next year. Also standards of the complex will drop if someone isnt paying their fees. Its infuriating to pay a huge chunk of money and suddenly be living in a sub standard complex.
eg. in our complex it was discovered in the roof space that there was a lot of moisture/damp occurring and we couldnt figure out why. Upstairs tenants were also complaining of mould on the ceilings/walls. Turns out neither upstairs tenant bothered to have the heating on all winter cos it was too expensive! (storage heaters - another pain) So they have caused huge damage to their apartments and the building itself and I have to part pay to have it fixed - infuriating!

I suppose you are really weighing up if you are ok living really close to others and in some respects depending on them, or if you value your privacy and quiet.


These are things I hate most about the apartment we live in. weve been here 8 years, and have a newborn and are desperate to leave!

Peregrinus

I see two issues with apartments:

One has already been mentioned - the lack of control. All the common areas, car parks, lifts etc are provided and maintained by a management company, and you have only a tiny amount of influence over its decisions. And you have next to no influence over the decisions of your neighbours about how much noise they will make and how many parties they will have etc. All these things do go your quality of life but, obviously, it's up to you to decide how much importance you attach to them.

The second is the well-entrenched Irish preferences for houses, which means that while you may see your apartment as your long-term home, your neighbours mostly will not. A great many of them will be relatively transient, with associated lifestyles and attitudes to neighbourly relations. As time goes on, you'll be more and more the middle-aged couple living in a community dominated by young singles and childless couples who don't expect to stick around. You may be fine with that, of course, but before you go down this route be sure you are. And think that your child may not have a lot of child neighbours, which I think is an issue, especially for an only child. The whole thing could be a bit isolating for him (or her), especially when he reaches the age where, if living in the suburbs, he'd be in and out of the neighbours' houses playing with the neighbours' children, but living in a more urban environment you can't really let him out to wander the streets.

username123

dori_dormer wrote: »

Yeah there really is no storage in apartments. Where do you store the christmas tree and decorations? The suitcases?

I do have storage space actually, but it is limited (although Ive got the xmas tree/decorations, suitcases and even a telescope stored ok!). In some ways it suits me as it stops me from hoarding - I simply dont have the space!

ted1

I wouldn't even consider an apartment over a house especially with a kid.

my 2 (2.5 and 4.5) are always out the back playing on the swings, slides etc. i can let them out there with out supervision, it enclosed and safe, if there out the front I have to be out there keeping an eye on them.

also the noise in apartments is an issue, irish apartments an no where near sound proof.

with regards maintenance fees over cot of running a household. You have to pay management fees even if you can't afford it, with a house you simply put off what needs to be done or do it yourself for free.

theres lots of parking issues with apartments as oppose to houses.

i could go on.

FURET

username123 wrote: »

Oh - I didnt realise you were talking about Dubai - some of my points may not be valid with a different standard of build in a different country.

No, we currently live in Dubai (and based on that we can see that people get by perfectly fine without gardens) but we are thinking of buying an apartment in Ireland when we get back in 3 years. Mind you, we might opt for the US or UK or Germany - we're not 100% sure yet, but Ireland is most likely.

Thanks for all your points above.

I lived in a really good apartment complex in Ballincollig called Classes Lake around 3 years ago. The floors, ceilings, and walls were all made of concrete, so it was an unbelievably silent place. I was amazed actually...it really made me reevaluate my opinion on apartments. It was also gated.

My chief concern is something that you mentioned: Irish apartments in general don't seem to be as good as, say, American apartments.

I've observed my own parents over the past 30 years or so pump tons of money into their house: redecoration, paving, tarmac, lawns, landscaping, extension, maintenance - and it's totally put me off owning a house. The fact that they built it 10km from the nearest town has also cost them scores of thousands over the years in transport costs. That's obviously a choice that you don't have to make (i.e. you can live in a city instead, and that's what we'll do). They'd be so much better off financially today if they'd made some other choices with regard to property.

So my wife and I see it as a case of "sure, by living in an apartment you sacrifice here, but you gain there" - and in our case, the gain we're focused on is money, which we can use to provide a good education for our child plus some pretty cool family vacations in the future too, along with (eventually) a larger portfolio of diversified assets and a second residence in a warm country in due course.

hfallada

OP I know of several developments in Dublin city some of which are luxury apartments and other basic apartment blocks. But none have owner occupiers. One development has 150 apartments with not a single owner occupier. Meaning the management fee is kept as low as possible as none of the owners care. The apartment block is severely run down and no one cares. All the owners care about is ensuring the management fee is low.

Living in an apartment means there is very little sense of community and there is rarely children in apartments blocks in Ireland. I know in areas of the city regardless if they are working class or upper middle class, they have community BBQs. I cant see that happening in an apartment block.

There are 3 Bed houses in nice Suburbs such as Drumcondra for 250k. They have small gardens and lots of parks in an area. If you renovate a house properly, it should need little maintenance.

Flippyfloppy

Reselling an apartment could pose difficulties.

Management companies sometimes don't do their jobs/raise their prices/change

Some poorer built apartments can be very noisy, in tandem with what a previous poster mentioned about the possible high turnover of tenants could prove irritating

Most Communal outdoor areas,if at all , tend to be outside sliding doors of those with ground floor apartments

Parking can be a nightmare, one complex I know residents have to part 50 metres from their apartment rather than outside

Maybe you could try renting an apartment where you'd like to buy first?

dori_dormer

Ah yes parking is also annoying! You generally only get one parking space. so if both of you drive that would be a problem, or even if you had visitors over theres an issue.

We are ground floor apartment so we have no storage at all other than a hall press for the hoover. My sister is top floor and has some attic space.
We have to rent a storage locker to hold everything we have.

Also think about bikes etc for your child. and having to bring them up and down stairs / the lift every other day.

We lived in an apartment in the US and it was much larger than your average Irish 2 bed, loads of storage. Also a 3 bed in Israel with huge balconies and privacy. ( this is the reason why we dont fit in our irish 2 bed anymore )

I would definitely say apartments in other parts of the world are designed better than here. People in Israel and America actually LIVED in their apartments, rather than used them as a stop gap to a house. so they were better designed storage wise and privacy wise.
Also with regard to not needing outside space - when the weather is crap 90% of the time here, as soon as its sunny (like this week) you want to be instantly out enjoying it, a garden is handy for that kind of thing, rather than one of you having to leave the other and trek down to the park with your child so they can have some fresh air.

Also most apartments have storage heaters - expensive, and if you have to use a tumble dryer to always dry your clothes thatll add to the cost too. My bills are way higher than my sisters 3 bed house.

cossiem0d0

My mum bought an apartment a few years ago and her experience seems to be a lot different to most of the people on here. In her block anyway, it seems to be mostly owner occupied (more older people than young) and there is definitely a sense of community there - the neighbours are so friendly and they even had a little Christmas drinks party last year. Parking isn't really an issue and there's kids running around playing outside all the time in good weather (there's a small safe area for them to play). She was very concious about storage when looking to buy and made sure she had enough space.

I think it really depends on the complex. I think my mums is really well run and hopefully it'll stay like that in the future. Of course, if a large number of people get into financial difficulty and can't pay their fees, she'll suffer which is a risk but overall she's very happy with her apartment.

Oh and her 2 bed apartment is bigger than my 3 bed house!

Mrs OBumble

Provided you choose a good apartment (sound-proofed, quality complex, well managed) not a potential slum, with adequate space, then the only issue I can see is the social stigma from your Irish colleagues and neighbours: they will look down their noses at you, even though as you say it's an economically sound decision.

If your kid is not used to having a back-yard, the s/he won't miss it.

You will save a lot of time by not having to mow lawns etc - time that you can use taking your kid to the park etc.

The_Morrigan

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Provided you choose a good apartment (sound-proofed, quality complex, well managed) not a potential slum, with adequate space, then the only issue I can see is the social stigma from your Irish colleagues and neighbours: they will look down their noses at you, even though as you say it's an economically sound decision.

If your kid is not used to having a back-yard, the s/he won't miss it.

You will save a lot of time by not having to mow lawns etc - time that you can use taking your kid to the park etc.

Please don't make sweeping generalisations like that here.

techdiver

hfallada wrote: »

There are 3 Bed houses in nice Suburbs such as Drumcondra for 250k. They have small gardens and lots of parks in an area. If you renovate a house properly, it should need little maintenance.

I wish.

Prices have gone crazy in Dublin at the moment.

This is the only result for Drumcondra for 3 bed houses under €250K

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/dublin-3/property-for-sale-in-drumcondra?type=37|38|39|40|45&maxprice=250000&minbeds=3

2 small terraced properties.

Depressing, I know.

Suppose it all depends on the budget the OP has, but €250k is going to get you very little in nice areas of Dublin.

ted1

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If your kid is not used to having a back-yard, the s/he won't miss it.

You will save a lot of time by not having to mow lawns etc - time that you can use taking your kid to the park etc.

your kid mightn't miss it, but it would benefit them.

it takes 5 minutes to mow an average size garden in Ireland, the kids can play in the garden in the process. if dinner is ready in 10 minutes they can play out back in this time, you won't get to the park and back in this time and prepare dinner (you'll have to accompany the kids)


your case for no garden is very weak

the_syco

FURET wrote: »

I've observed my own parents over the past 30 years or so pump tons of money into their house: redecoration, paving, tarmac, lawns, landscaping, extension, maintenance - and it's totally put me off owning a house.

All optional. You NEVER OWN the apartment (only a 999 year lease, or whatever), so can be limited to what you can do regarding the layout of your apartment.

FURET wrote: »

The fact that they built it 10km from the nearest town has also cost them scores of thousands over the years in transport costs. That's obviously a choice that you don't have to make (i.e. you can live in a city instead, and that's what we'll do). They'd be so much better off financially today if they'd made some other choices with regard to property.

Sounds like they didn't like living in the city. Look at Lucan in Dublin for a medium density area which has multiple bus routes into the main city centre.

FURET wrote: »

I lived in a really good apartment complex in Ballincollig called Classes Lake around 3 years ago. The floors, ceilings, and walls were all made of concrete, so it was an unbelievably silent place.

A lot of the apartments in Dublin allow you to hear your neighbours flush heir toilet.

Most apartments don't allow pets.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

then the only issue I can see is the social stigma from your Irish colleagues and neighbours: they will look down their noses at you, even though as you say it's an economically sound decision.

There's more of a chance that they'll look down at you over something stupid such as your postcode if they care about your apartment that much!

FURET

ted1 wrote: »

your kid mightn't miss it, but it would benefit them.

it takes 5 minutes to mow an average size garden in Ireland, the kids can play in the garden in the process. if dinner is ready in 10 minutes they can play out back in this time, you won't get to the park and back in this time and prepare dinner (you'll have to accompany the kids)


your case for no garden is very weak

Kids play in the garden for how many days per year for how many years? Suppose they play in the garden for 50% of the days of the year for 10 years before they grow out of it. Does the little garden justify a 20-year mortgage and all the additional maintenance costs that go with owning a house+garden vs a good apartment?

I mean, how deprived would they be without a garden? Do kids in other countries where apartment life dominates have happy childhoods without gardens? In Dubai they seem to. In Germany and Japan they seem to. I grew up on a property that had a huge garden. It was far from the making of my childhood. My wife grew up in a townhouse on the side of the street that had no garden at all. She's the most well-adjusted person I've ever met.

Genuine questions above. I think people massively overestimate the worth of a patch of lawn.

murphaph

Just make sure the apartment is in a really well built (thick concrete!) block and that it has lifts. Stairs are a major PITA with a child (we currently live 4th floor Altbau, no lift with a baby....so we're very much looking forward to our forthcoming house build with the resulting patch of lawn lol!).

In theory your plan is sound...but it's finding that quality development, preferably with like minded owner occupiers that will be tough in Ireland. In Germany I'd have much less hesitation..German tenants are just as houseproud as owners, so it generally doesn't make a difference what makeup the building occupancy has.

If Germany is really and option then a nice big 3 bed apartment is a very viable option over a house.

FURET

the_syco wrote: »

All optional. You NEVER OWN the apartment (only a 999 year lease, or whatever), so can be limited to what you can do regarding the layout of your apartment.

This I never knew. So when I see an apartment for sale for 100k, it's not really for sale? It's only for lease? What happens after the 99 years are up?

Sounds like they didn't like living in the city. Look at Lucan in Dublin for a medium density area which has multiple bus routes into the main city centre.

You're right, they didn't. But I do - at the very least close by - certainly not in the countryside... I am thinking of places like Passage West or Ballincollig (I'm not familiar with the districts of Dublin that much as I haven't lived there since 2002 and I'm sure it's changed a lot since then. I am open to living in either Dublin or Cork.

A lot of the apartments in Dublin allow you to hear your neighbours flush heir toilet.

We have the time and the money to shop around and avoid buildings with these kinds of flaws.

Most apartments don't allow pets.

Good point.

There's more of a chance that they'll look down at you over something stupid such as your postcode if they care about your apartment that much!

Hehe, maybe! Luckily we don't care about that kind of thing.

murphaph wrote: »

If Germany is really and option then a nice big 3 bed apartment is a very viable option over a house.

I'd love Germany (it would be Heidelberg if anywhere). I think it's a great place to raise a family. My wife is Filipino and an accountant. Her English is very good and she loves working in her profession, so she could easily work in Ireland or the UK. But she doesn't speak German, and it'd be a stretch to think she could learn it well enough within even four or five years (living as we do in Dubai) to be hired as an accountant in Germany. It would also be socially isolating for her...so it's the least likely option right now. But it remains an option.

techdiver wrote: »

I wish.

Prices have gone crazy in Dublin at the moment.

This is the only result for Drumcondra for 3 bed houses under €250K

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/dublin-3/property-for-sale-in-drumcondra?type=37|38|39|40|45&maxprice=250000&minbeds=3

2 small terraced properties.

Depressing, I know.

Suppose it all depends on the budget the OP has, but €250k is going to get you very little in nice areas of Dublin.

And to be honest, I hate everything about houses like that. We have bandwidth to service the mortgage for a decent house. But, we see such bandwidth as wasted if it's all pumped into a house over a long period. A house is a single, fixed, high-cost asset; and we don't feel the love for it that many other people seem to feel. We'd much rather make the money that we would save through owning an apartment work for us in more efficient ways, yielding a higher return over time and allowing us to enjoy a higher economic standard of living throughout life.

The replies so far have been very interesting. To me it seems that if you look at the question "house or apartment" purely in economic terms, it's a no-brainer. Apartment wins. But are the possible (likely?) annoyances of living in an apartment outweighed by the costs of living in a house? Maybe it's a very personal thing.

The fact is, my wife and I hate debt. We could buy an apartment with cash, saving tens of thousands, not just in mortgage repayments but also reduced maintenance costs, and use the saved money to do so much more.

I'm still on the fence here. I'm not quite as confident in the apartment option as I was at the start of the thread. But I can't shift the view that it's a better move economically to go with the apartment in that it gives us scope to grow our wealth over the next 30 years substantially more than would be possible if we committed to a house.

username123

FURET wrote: »

The fact is, my wife and I hate debt. We could buy an apartment with cash, saving tens of thousands, not just in mortgage repayments but also reduced maintenance costs, and use the saved money to do so much more.

I think you might be wildly underestimating the cost of the type of apartment you are talking about (spacious, 3 bed, not noisy etc..). If you got somewhere that ticked all those boxes you'd be looking at a high end place, and the price of an average 3 bed semi d would be similar.

I only know one place personally where the apartments are a really really high standard and they were 1.5 million + in boom times.

You could buy an ordinary 2 bed apartment in Ireland for cash but then you'd be stuck with all the issues that have been mentioned above.

Ray Palmer

I have got echo what is being said about apartments and price. You will be very lucky to find an apartment at the high level you are talking about that will be cheaper than a house. Maintenance costs that you seem to be suggesting you will save are actually very unlikely. The structures and management of apartment boards is open to a lot of issues. You will never have any real control of them.
Even if the block is managed well there can still be additional costs. I had to pay €10k one year as the sinking fund for the block was not enough for the roof replacement. They did have money for the work it was just building costs inflated. If they had been more attentive it still would have meant higher maintenance charges over the years.
I pay more in maintenance for an apartment than I do on any of the other houses. The apartment is older, larger and better built than recent builds with a cheaper charge.
Not sure why you think apartments are much cheaper to take care of with the extra layer of costs on management companies. You may just not be familiar with how it works here.

fricatus

This is a really interesting discussion. I would always have been biased towards apartment living for the reasons Furet sets out, but I ended up living in a suburban house with lawns front and back, hedges, a garage, etc. There's even a tarmac driveway!

My preference for apartments stems from time I spent living in Spain, and also all the hours I spent as a teenager cutting the lawn in my mother's place.

However I found myself moving with the herd and going for the "default option" because I just felt Ireland was not set up for apartment living. Any apartments I saw had all the issues that people have gone through in this thread.

The main thing is that most of your neighbours would be renters, and while that's not to pass judgement on anybody, there is a tendency for renting to be a temporary measure, and therefore rental properties are not usually well cared for by tenants.

There's an apartment complex near me which is full of hospital staff. It seems to be pretty well run and maintained, with plenty of nice cars in the car park. However it doesn't seem like it's anyone's actual home. Rather it just seems like student accommodation for grown ups.

I think if you lived somewhere like that, you wouldn't have much actual trouble, but you might feel a bit odd after a while being the only long-term fixture in an ever-changing landscape. You reckon this wouldn't bother you, but you don't know how you'd feel after 6-7 years of the experience.

One of the things that surprised me about my own experience is how I actually now enjoy cutting the grass, trimming hedges, trimming back trees and chopping them up for firewood. It's not exactly productive work, but in small doses it's very satisfying, and has the effect of making me very grateful that I don't have to do it 9-5!

borderlinemeath

I lived in a couple of apartments when I was renting in Dublin and it was fine at the start but became a chore fairly quickly. There's never enough storage space, even in the top floor where we had an attic to put stuff there was never enough room for anything even with multitudes of shelves for books and bits and photos etc. I could just imagine your child wanting a bike and it getting pretty tiresome to keep tripping over it in the hallway, or even just having toys out all over the living room floor.

The noise can be problematic, younger neighbours, late night parties, the first apartment I lived in was fairly well built and the noise from other apartments wasn't too bad ie you couldn't hear flushing toilets, but you knew when somebody in the block was having a party. The second one was better designed in that the apartment I was in was out on a "wing" and again top floor so it was only one side and below that we had to deal with. This block however had issues with damp and the owner occupier who I was renting a room from had huge issues with the management company with trying to sort it, there was also a structural defect on one of the walls and she had to engage a solicitor to deal with the management company.

While you don't miss having a garden now, in time you might. In all my years renting apartments I had small balconies for fresh air, but sometimes on a sunny day you just want to sit out in your own garden and relax. I wouldn't feel particularly safe in many parks in the city with just sitting down and relaxing, without worrying is somebody going to rob my bag if I dozed off (which I love to do sitting outside for some reason) The main reason I bought a house and not an apartment was because of my need for outside space, even though we're in a country where the weather can be miserable.

No pets is a downside, you might not want them but down the line your child might.
Little or no control about management fees.. At least you could control the maintenence of a house yourself, preventative measures as opposed to waiting for problems.

ted1

I don't see where your getting the high costs involved in owning a house V apartment. you listed you parents building an extension, this was to get more room. You wouldn't have the capability to create additional living space if you owned an apartment and so would have to move. this would bring additional costs.

In the last year my cost of house ownership were

Insurance €250
Bins €200
Paint etc €125
Boiler service €79
trip to dump with hedge cuttings €10
weed killer, fuit trees €45

asides from that all other expenses would be the same as an apartment.

hope this helps

username123

ted1 wrote: »

I don't see where your getting the high costs involved in owning a house V apartment. you listed you parents building an extension, this was to get more room. You wouldn't have the capability to create additional living space if you owned an apartment and so would have to move. this would bring additional costs.

In the last year my cost of house ownership were

Insurance €250
Bins €200
Paint etc €125
Boiler service €79
trip to dump with hedge cuttings €10
weed killer, fuit trees €45

asides from that all other expenses would be the same as an apartment.

hope this helps

Just for comparison my comparable figures for owning an apartment:

Management fees - 850 (this includes building insurance, bins, grounds maintenance, - in theory it also covers painting and buildings maintenance, in practice I havent seen any painting since Ive lived there).

Contents insurance - 150.

Ray Palmer

username123 wrote: »

Just for comparison my comparable figures for owning an apartment:

Management fees - 850 (this includes building insurance, bins, grounds maintenance, - in theory it also covers painting and buildings maintenance, in practice I havent seen any painting since Ive lived there).

Contents insurance - 150.

That is actually a low management fee. If the building is a high spec like required I would suspect it will be higher. Low maintenance charge is actually a very bad sign for the future of a development. Make sure they have a properly managed sinking fund. Flat roofs need to be replaced at some point and that is pretty expensive.

username123

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is actually a low management fee. If the building is a high spec like required I would suspect it will be higher. Low maintenance charge is actually a very bad sign for the future of a development. Make sure they have a properly managed sinking fund. Flat roofs need to be replaced at some point and that is pretty expensive.

There are no internal common areas, lifts or underground carpark - its all own front door low rise buildings.

harpsman

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Please don't make sweeping generalisations like that here.

The "sweeping generalisation" seems pretty justified based on what Ive read here and what I come accross.

harpsman

FURET wrote: »

Kids play in the garden for how many days per year for how many years? Suppose they play in the garden for 50% of the days of the year for 10 years before they grow out of it. Does the little garden justify a 20-year mortgage and all the additional maintenance costs that go with owning a house+garden vs a good apartment?

I mean, how deprived would they be without a garden? Do kids in other countries where apartment life dominates have happy childhoods without gardens? In Dubai they seem to. In Germany and Japan they seem to. I grew up on a property that had a huge garden. It was far from the making of my childhood. My wife grew up in a townhouse on the side of the street that had no garden at all. She's the most well-adjusted person I've ever met.

Genuine questions above. I think people massively overestimate the worth of a patch of lawn.

I agree. I live in an appartment in dublin-great location, well built,nice gardens,lifts,loads of parking,lots of young families. Sure a bit less storage space,but small 3 bed houses in Dublin dont have much storage either, and you cant dry your washing outside.Gardens are handy for toddlers running around I suppose,but there not much use to older kids for playing football and I can live without the barbecue once a year whn/if the sun shines. Tbh Id rather live near a park than have a small garden. Having said that we ve just bought a house down the road with a garden:cool:

the_syco

FURET wrote: »

This I never knew. So when I see an apartment for sale for 100k, it's not really for sale? It's only for lease? What happens after the 99 years are up?

Not sure. Also, as it's only a lease, if you act up, legally management can kick you out, although as the saying goes "you only fear the law if you follow the law"; the scumbags who should get kicked out are rarely kicked out.

FURET wrote: »

The fact is, my wife and I hate debt. We could buy an apartment with cash, saving tens of thousands, not just in mortgage repayments but also reduced maintenance costs, and use the saved money to do so much more.

Buy the house with cash, and you' may be still be paying €1000 a year on fees. If other people don't pay their fees, you'll be paying your €1000 but not get anything back, such as gardening, tree clipping, lighting, etc! Have seen a few threads over the last few months about apartment complexs not having lights on after a certain time to save on the electricity bills :rolleyes:

FURET wrote: »

But I can't shift the view that it's a better move economically to go with the apartment in that it gives us scope to grow our wealth over the next 30 years substantially more than would be possible if we committed to a house.

Another thing about a house; if it's semi-detached, you can add an extra room to it if you needed it. Or turn the garage to an office with it's own door, if your wife wants to do some consultancy work on the side, without having to rent another office. Your apartment value will always depend on the complex. Your house value will depend on how you look after it, and what you attach to it.

=-=

As for the garden that kids play in; there's also the road that they can play with other kids. Most apartments don't like kids playing (insurance costs). Some even ban ball games in the apartment grounds. So if they were to meet with friends, it'll be outside the apartment grounds. From 5 to about 15, I played a lot with other kids on my road who were the same age as me, so I'm biased in that regard.