Dog barking - but only when I am away

Ms Tootsie

Ok so here is a strange one. I travel for work a bit and my OH has discovered that Frodo barks incessantly when I am away. Even when my OH is there is the house.

He barks at anything that passes the house barks at the wind and hell, even barks at nothing. Apparently the other day he was sitting upstairs and he came barrelling down barking like crazy for no reason. :rolleyes:

He also barked for two hours in the middle of the night last night. The OH is knackered! So I was wondering, any suggestions on how we can curb this barking mad habit? I have tried looking stuff up online but can only find stuff relating to barking when a dogs owner is away and they are left alone.

Hooked

Can I ask what breed and how old?

Neutered?

Also - how often is he exercised (out of the house)? And for how long/what distance?

What's his training routine?

Is he crated or has he a room/area to himself (indoors)?

Best give as much info so the guys and gals in here can advise...

Ms Tootsie

He is male and neutered. He is 2 1/2 and is a soft coated wheaten. He gets a 20 minute walk in the morning and another 30 - 40 one in the evening. Every other evening instead of a walk he goes for a 25 - 30 min run with my OH.

When I come in after work we do some training for about 20 minutes - reward based command training. In the mornings when we leave for work we hid some food which he has to find. Although after two years he has all the hiding places down to a T :rolleyes:

He has a crate and is crate trained and he has an area where the crate is which he uses when he wants time to chill out from us and that is very much 'his space'. He likes to chill out at the bottom of the stairs or on the sofa with us. Although the OH has said he doesnt seem to want to sit on the sofa as much while I am away - preferring to be at the bottom of the stairs where he can see the front door.

borderlinemeath

I wonder does he hear a car in the distance that is similar or the same as your car (assuming you drive) and thinks you're coming home? Cue the excitement?

Ms Tootsie

Could be! We drive a very very common car. The only thing is I dont take it with me and it is parked in the driveway.

It really is very strange.

Popescu

Your dog is clearly psychologically dependent on you and cannot tolerate the separation. When the leader of the pack is away, he becomes anxious and the barking is calling you back, letting you know that he is "here". My 12-year-old dog does the same thing and always did. There is not a thing you can do about it.

Nody

Popescu wrote: »

Your dog is clearly psychologically dependent on you and cannot tolerate the separation. When the leader of the pack is away, he becomes anxious and the barking is calling you back, letting you know that he is "here". My 12-year-old dog does the same thing and always did. There is not a thing you can do about it.

First of all there is no leader of the pack, alpha male etc. and secondly yes it can be dealt with but it takes a lot of time to deal with seperation anxiety in general and a good and qualified behavourist can help develop the plan how to do it.

Popescu

Nody wrote: »

First of all there is no leader of the pack, alpha male etc. and secondly yes it can be dealt with but it takes a lot of time to deal with seperation anxiety in general and a good and qualified behavourist can help develop the plan how to do it.

Stop contradicting people without supporting your statements and if you know so much tell us all how to stop a dog barking when his primary owner is away instead of referring the poster to an expert.

DBB

Hi OP, whilst I'm pretty sure you know that science does not support the notion that your dog is barking because he's lost his "leader", it is entirely possible that he's barking when you're gone because he's lost the emotional security he feels when you're there. Is he, by any chance, particularly attached to you? Does he follow you about the house, but not (or less so) your OH? Does he start getting anxious before you leave?
If so, it's not that he's missing his leader, more that he's missing his mam, if you see the important distinction!
And contrary to what another poster has said, of course there is something you can do about it, but I'll say no more until you can confirm, or not, what I've asked you here :-)

Ms Tootsie

Would it be separation anxiety? He doesnt bark excessively when we both are out at work during the day, only when the post man arrives (I have nosy neigbours who would waste no time in making sure we knew if he did).

We have put him in home boarding before when we went on holidays and were told he was fine. And when we went on honeymoon for 3 weeks my parents took him and said he was fine. So I dont know if it is seperation anxiety as would that not present itself when we are both away?

Ms Tootsie

Thanks DBB.

Sometimes he sits away from us in the evenings on the stairs or in his crate. But mainly he is on the sofa in the room with us. If he is on the sofa with us and I get up he will follow me. Also when I have a shower and I am drying my hair he hates the hairdryer but he will sit at the very edge of the landing and watch into my room. As far away as he can get from the hairdryer while still watching me lol. He will do this some evenings even if my OH is in the living room.

He doesnt like when he sees suitcases - they only come out when both my OH and I are going on holiday, when I am visiting my parents or when I am travelling for work. He doesnt bark at them but becomes almost sullen.

DBB

Do you feel that he shadows you generally? Does he follow you at other times other than when you're on the sofa in the evening?
And is it only when you're gone away travelling for work when he does this, rather than when you're just gone during regular working days?

Ms Tootsie

Some days he would be pretty heavy on the shadowing. Others not as much. During the working day he doesnt bark - well bar barking at the postman - our neighbours would be quick to let us know. He does goes nuts on the enthusiasm when I get in but it seems fairly normal. No more than a jumps, essential licks before running off to his bowl as he knows its dinner time.

When we are away on holidays he isnt in our house as he goes to my parents or home boarding. Neither have had any issues with the barking so it does seem to be resigned to our house.

Ms Tootsie

We are keen to know how to react to it so that my OH isnt inadvertently encouraging him.

DBB

Sorry to be a pain here, but can you specifically say, with confidence, that he only barks a lot when you have gone away travelling, on your own?

Ms Tootsie

He barks as well when we are there but it's barking overload when I am away. This time it is worse with the night barking.

I should mention we had an awful hassle with nick knackers for a few weeks - coming up and thumping / kicking the door. That sent the poor guy nuts. Could that be why it is worse now as he maybe is a bit jumpy from that?

DBB

kaza2710 wrote: »

I should mention we had an awful hassle with nick knackers for a few weeks - coming up and thumping / kicking the door. That sent the poor guy nuts. Could that be why it is worse now as he maybe is a bit jumpy from that?

Absolutely possible. Little brats. It could explain why he's so reactive at the window to passers-by now, or worse than he was.
As for the barkiness whilst you're away, I think there's a possible connection between him seeing your suitcases or travel bags, acting as a predictor for him that you're going away, which makes him anxious.
So, travel bags + kaza leaving + kaza's OH still at home =Kaza's gone for ages.
And the knowledge that kaza's going to be gone for much longer than normal, even overnight for feck sake, has him on Kaza-watch overdrive.
I'd say the problem, for him at least, is specific to your home, and all the things associated with your home (including the bratty kids), which is why it's not an issue when he goes to your folks or home boarding.
Does that fit the picture, do you think?

emeldc

I wonder do you live over the fence from me :mad: :rolleyes:

Ms Tootsie

That sounds like it exactly DBB!!!

Ms Tootsie

emeldc wrote: »

I wonder do you live over the fence from me :mad: :rolleyes:

Eek. I hope not! We are in Meath so hopefully it wasnt our guy wrecking your head.

emeldc

kaza2710 wrote: »

Eek. I hope not! We are in Meath so hopefully it wasnt our guy wrecking your head.

Nah, you're alright. I have two neighbours at the back of me, two dogs in one house, one in the other. They fight each other through the fence ......... all day, while owners are at work. I complained nicely but it fell on deaf ears. Wont take much more of it. Solicitors letter next.

Ms Tootsie

emeldc wrote: »

Nah, you're alright. I have two neighbours at the back of me, two dogs in one house, one in the other. They fight each other through the fence ......... all day, while owners are at work. I complained nicely but it fell on deaf ears. Wont take much more of it. Solicitors letter next.

Our guy is indoors while we are at work. Usually snoozing thankfully!!

DBB

Ok! So, one way to reduce anxiety is to get rid of the cues that elicit it. So, you could make your pre-departure cues far less obvious, for example, send your OH out to walk the dog while you pack your bag and put it in the car.
You could also desensitise him to the appearance of suitcases by very regularly taking them out, but not going away! You could also feed him or play a favourite game with him when you take the cases out.
I'd also be inclined to leave items that smell very strongly of you. Some recent research has indicated that anxious dogs become anxious when the smell of their favourite owner starts to dissipate some hours after they've departed. If you tightly wrap some well-worn clothes into sealed bags, your OH could "refresh" your scent around the house, and I'd suggest near your dog's favourite resting spot, by unwrapping an item of clothing every 7-10 hours. I'd suggest using clothes you've slept in or exercised in!
It'd be very useful too to tire the dog out as much as you can (this'll be down to the OH or a dog walker while you're away), and train your dog now to settle down with stuffed kongs and the like: if he gets used to using kongs whilst relaxed, he's more likely to settle down with one during times of anxiety.
It might help if, when you're leaving, the OH brings him off for a walk so that it's not a matter of you being there, then suddenly gone and the dog standing there looking at the door you've just closed behind you (awww!)
I'd also suggest the usual anti-anxiety remedies, such as the Thundershirt, the Adaptil diffuser, and I'd be particularly tempted to try the nutraceutical Zylkene, which has been shown to be pretty effective in most dogs to reduce separation-related anxiety issues. It's not madly cheap, but you could use it in the run-up to and during trips away to keep costs down.

borderlinemeath

^^^
I was just thinking of that programme where the vizsla was on the lookout for his owner every day at the same time & the wife spread his scent around with his training gear & he was snoozing in his bed instead of waiting for him at the door when the owner came home.

Ms Tootsie

DBB this is all brilliant stuff. Thank you so much. Seems like very sound advice

Edited to say he does actually love stealing my PJs after I have slept in them and he lies on them. When we were on honeymoon he found PJs of mine in my parents house that I had worn before the wedding and he carted them off to his crate. Would suggest the clothes thing could be interesting.

DBB

If it's any consolation, and this is based purely on personal observation (though I could have read it somewhere too!), Wheatens seem to be more prone than other breeds to developing separation-related problems. Generally, terriers are less prone to it as they have that natural independence to them, but Wheaties are a bit of an exception in this regard!

Popescu

Don't worry. He misses you and always will. His barking is his way of showing anxiety and dependence on you, his master. After all the interrogation you are getting here, I wager you 100 to 1 that no-one will be able to change your dog's way of coping with your absences. Bear in mind that when he is at a kennel or your parents' house, he is not at home where you and he belong.

Ms Tootsie

DBB wrote: »

If it's any consolation, and this is based purely on personal observation (though I could have read it somewhere too!), Wheatens seem to be more prone than other breeds to developing separation-related problems. Generally, terriers are less prone to it as they have that natural independence to them, but Wheaties are a bit of an exception in this regard!

Why doesnt this surprise me! :rolleyes:

As a breed they are hard work. But then again I wouldnt swap our guy for the world :P

Ms Tootsie

Popescu wrote: »

Don't worry. He misses you and always will. His barking is his way of showing anxiety and dependence on you, his master. After all the interrogation you are getting here, I wager you 100 to 1 that no-one will be able to change your dog's way of coping with your absences. Bear in mind that when he is at a kennel or your parents' house, he is not at home where you and he belong.

As life gets in the way I cant always be at home. I am sure he misses me and I understand but I want to find a way to reduce the barking which seems to result from this.

iPink

Popescu wrote: »

Your dog is clearly psychologically dependent on you and cannot tolerate the separation. When the leader of the pack is away, he becomes anxious and the barking is calling you back, letting you know that he is "here". My 12-year-old dog does the same thing and always did. There is not a thing you can do about it.

Actually howling would be a more common way for a dog to call the pack or a member of the pack back. ..
I would suggest changing up your routine when you leave. .. For example do you always give him a treat, direct him to his crate & pat him on the head before leaving?
You would probably find that his anxiety is starting long before you actually physically leave just by reading your signs, which compounds his anxious state... this needs to be changed in some way... what about one of those treat toys that they have to work out how to get the treats out? Konga or something like that!
The backing is a part of his anxiety I would suggest & as you're are gone he feels like he needs to step up & be 'the boss' which he doesn't really feel equipped to do as he sees himself as no.2... This makes him more anxious. ..
Can your partner try to establish herself as higher up the pecking order than him. .. maybe do some training & work on more obedience with him. .. This should make him feel safer & calmer when you are not there. ..
Just a few thoughts op... hope you get out sorted but it will take some time & patience

DBB

Popescu wrote: »

Don't worry. He misses you and always will. His barking is his way of showing anxiety and dependence on you, his master. After all the interrogation you are getting here, I wager you 100 to 1 that no-one will be able to change your dog's way of coping with your absences. Bear in mind that when he is at a kennel or your parents' house, he is not at home where you and he belong.

God. In that case I'd better post on the behaviourist's forum that I'm a member of that the vast number of successes we've had in addressing separation anxiety in dogs must have been down to some sort of spontaneous self-cure administered by the dogs themselves!
It's an area I'm particularly interested in, and I can't recall a single case where behavioural intervention didn't bring about some improvement at least. But I must be just imagining that. I'd better give up altogether so :-D

Popescu

kaza2710 wrote: »

As life gets in the way I cant always be at home. I am sure he misses me and I understand but I want to find a way to reduce the barking which seems to result from this.

Birds tweet. Cats meow. Dogs bark. Some more than others. It is his way of coping and not harming him.

iPink

Popescu wrote: »

Birds tweet. Cats meow. Dogs bark. Some more than others. It is his way of coping and not harming him.

Yes but excessive barking especially at specific/inappropriate times is a sign of anxiety & as such a behaviour that could worsen over time. .. This would be harmful. The type of bark would also signify different emotions. .

DBB

For those in this thread that feel that dogs do the things they do because they are trying to be the leader of the pack, or are missing their leader of the pack, can I please urge you to read the following link, which describes why this notion is not correct, and not supported by any evidence.
www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

Edited to add: That link isn't working for some reason. Damn! Anyway... Some alternatives:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

Popescu

iPink wrote: »

Yes but excessive barking especially at specific/inappropriate times is a sign of anxiety & as such a behaviour that could worsen over time. .. This would be harmful. The type of bark would also signify different emotions. .

My dog is 12 years 4 months, barks when I go for a newspaper and the vets say he is one of the healthiest dogs they have come across.

borderlinemeath

iPink wrote: »

Actually howling would be a more common way for a dog to call the pack or a member of the pack back. ..
I would suggest changing up your routine when you leave. .. For example do you always give him a treat, direct him to his crate & pat him on the head before leaving?
You would probably find that his anxiety is starting long before you actually physically leave just by reading your signs, which compounds his anxious state... this needs to be changed in some way... what about one of those treat toys that they have to work out how to get the treats out?
The backing is a part of his anxiety I would suggest & as your are gone he feels like he needs to step up & be 'the boss' which he doesn't really feel equipped to do as he sees himself as no.2... This makes him more anxious. ..
Can your partner try to establish herself as higher up the pecking order than him. .. maybe do some training & work on more obedience with him. .. This should make him feel safer & calmer when you are not there. ..
Just a few thoughts op... hope you get out sorted but it will take some time & patience

Why do you have the opinion that he needs to step up and be the boss? Or that he thinks of himself as no.2? Dogs really don't think that way at all. Apart from the fact that science has disproved all the wolf theory behaviours that a lot of pet owners insist on projecting onto their dogs, I find it hard to believe that a domesticated dog has the thought processes or capability to think this way. While dogs are very clever animals, they're not clever enough to have that kind of thinking. They just miss their owner, plain and simple.

muddypaws

Popescu wrote: »

My dog is 12 years 4 months, barks when I go for a newspaper and the vets say he is one of the healthiest dogs they have come across.

And what canine behaviourial qualifications does your vet have?

Popescu

muddypaws wrote: »

And what canine behaviourial qualifications does your vet have?

Vets have an educational foundation and experience with dogs. My dog is doing very well and gets a lot of attention. I am lucky to have had him for so long.

muddypaws

Popescu wrote: »

Vets have an educational foundation and experience with dogs. My dog is doing very well and gets a lot of attention. I am lucky to have had him for so long.

There are canine behaviourial qualifications, I asked which of those your vet possesses. I have no doubt he/she is medically trained.

Popescu

muddypaws wrote: »

There are canine behaviourial qualifications, I asked which of those your vet possesses. I have no doubt he/she is medically trained.

I have not interrogated any vet. I know my dog and I understand him. I wonder how long you have had your dog.

muddypaws

Popescu wrote: »

I have not interrogated any vet. I know my dog and I understand him. I wonder how long you have had your dog.

Which one, I have 12.

I merely asked, as you brought your vet into this discussion, saying that your dog barks when you go for the newspaper, and your vet says your dog is very healthy, there is a difference between being physically and mentally healthy, as I'm sure you know. Some of the people that have commented on this thread and offered the OP advice do actually have canine behaviourial qualifications, and so perhaps they, as well as the OP are able to see that the dog may need some help.

eisenberg1

DBB wrote: »

If it's any consolation, and this is based purely on personal observation (though I could have read it somewhere too!), Wheatens seem to be more prone than other breeds to developing separation-related problems. Generally, terriers are less prone to it as they have that natural independence to them, but Wheaties are a bit of an exception in this regard!

I have a Wheaten, neutered, 4yrs, great dogs, but IMO, they stay puppyish for a long time, and they crave company. I have two dogs, and the Wheaten was the second to come aboard and (again, just my opinion) not a dog that would do well alone, and he really needs the company of the second dog. Mine is not really a barker (only really barks when necessary), but again, this came with maturity, so stick with it and he will settle. Good luck OP

anniehoo

Popescu can you quit it with the argumentative undertone please. We've had several reported posts. The OP is getting excellent advice but for some reason you are contradicting everything that is being said even by a qualified behavioural expert.

This is your one and only warning, stay on topic and less of the attitude please.

Popescu

anniehoo wrote: »

Popescu can you quit it with the argumentative undertone please. We've had several reported posts. The OP is getting excellent advice but for some reason you are contradicting everything that is being said even by a qualified behavioural expert.

This is your one and only warning, stay on topic and less of the attitude please.

You wont hear from me again.

iPink

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Why do you have the opinion that he needs to step up and be the boss? Or that he thinks of himself as no.2? Dogs really don't think that way at all. Apart from the fact that science has disproved all the wolf theory behaviours that a lot of pet owners insist on projecting onto their dogs, I find it hard to believe that a domesticated dog has the thought processes or capability to think this way. While dogs are very clever animals, they're not clever enough to have that kind of thinking. They just miss their owner, plain and simple.

I don't have any canine qualifications but have worked and lived with many dogs my whole life. .. I have very successfully trained my own dogs and helped many people who have had problems with difficult dogs..!
Again, I stress that I don't have any qualifications (with animals! ) but I still stand by what I say... whatever 'science' says (which could be totally rebutted next month & again vice versa the next!) I still believe that dogs remain very close to their wolf ancestors just as I also believe that humans are basically one step up from cave dwellers ... I am a trained human psychologist & practising counsellor/psychotherapist by the way! !

Obviously the behaviour isn't totally the same...
I am sure there are quite a few (often contradicting) theories on animal/dog behaviour just as there are on human behaviour. .. Most are still quite valid!

For what it's worth, when it comes to dogs I tend to follow the teachings of Caesar Milan... Please don't shout too loud!! )

iPink

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Why do you have the opinion that he needs to step up and be the boss? Or that he thinks of himself as no.2? Dogs really don't think that way at all. Apart from the fact that science has disproved all the wolf theory behaviours that a lot of pet owners insist on projecting onto their dogs, I find it hard to believe that a domesticated dog has the thought processes or capability to think this way. While dogs are very clever animals, they're not clever enough to have that kind of thinking. They just miss their owner, plain and simple.

I also wouldn't put it down to clever thinking at all... it's instinct plain & simple. .. which to me makes way more sense than 'missing' someone. .. Now that I believe to be a very human emotion and anthropomorphism at it's core. .

Let me be clear- I don't for one second think that dogs don't feel pain, hunger, fear etc but I do believe they live very much in the now so something like 'missing someone' is not the same as feeling an absence of their presence & the role they perform so therefore wishing to fill that void. ..

DBB

As a psychotherapist, do you not feel it to be somewhat anomalous that the evidence we have strongly supports the fact that dominance hierarches and resultant "pack leadership" models do not exist in either dogs or wolves? In addition, there is not a shred of evidence that has been found to date to support the pack leader model as relied upon by the unqualified, and resolutely resistant to taking on board any scientific evidence Cesar Milan?
Surely, as a psychologist, you have been trained towards going with what evidence is available, rather than going along with something that has no empirical support whatsoever? Surely it is contrary to codes of practise within your professional bodies to plough your own unsupported furrow?
Otherwise, it's just quackery, plain and simple!
It is also not quite right to say that dogs just obey instincts. Not only are they subject to the laws of associative learning, there is also increasing evidence to suggest that they are emotional creatures, feeling a similar range of emotions to any human being. This is why they're all so different, and why the pack leadership "one size fits all" method of diagnosis and treatment is not effective in a wide range of dogs.

borderlinemeath

iPink wrote: »

I don't have any canine qualifications but have worked and lived with many dogs my whole life. .. I have very successfully trained my own dogs and helped many people who have had problems with difficult dogs..!
Again, I stress that I don't have any qualifications (with animals! ) but I still stand by what I say... whatever 'science' says (which could be totally rebutted next month & again vice versa the next!) I still believe that dogs remain very close to their wolf ancestors just as I also believe that humans are basically one step up from cave dwellers ... I am a trained human psychologist & practising counsellor/psychotherapist by the way! !

Obviously the behaviour isn't totally the same...
I am sure there are quite a few (often contradicting) theories on animal/dog behaviour just as there are on human behaviour. .. Most are still quite valid!

For what it's worth, when it comes to dogs I tend to follow the teachings of Caesar Milan... Please don't shout too loud!! )

I'd echo DBB in saying I find it a bit odd that you follow the teachings of CM, himself a completely unqualified tv personality who's techniques are completely at odds with every ethical, well qualified canine behaviourist out there? Given that you yourself have a qualification in a field similar but in the human sphere? He's a guy who got a lucky break on TV and decided to base his show and every book thereafter on wolf behaviour without any formal education in the field. By the way, David Mech, the original, very well respected scientist on which the wolf behavioural theories were based even came out and said "I got it wrong".

The way I look at it if somebody said they based their dogs training and obedience on CM techniques I would ask them would they also go to an unqualified vet to treat their dogs medical ailments. CM professes to "growing up with dogs all my life" but that's as far as his canine education goes and that does not make him an expert. Apart from the fact that he's downright cruel and has the scars from the dogs he pushed too far to prove it.

Graces7

iPink wrote: »

I also wouldn't put it down to clever thinking at all... it's instinct plain & simple. .. which to me makes way more sense than 'missing' someone. .. Now that I believe to be a very human emotion and anthropomorphism at it's core. .

Let me be clear- I don't for one second think that dogs don't feel pain, hunger, fear etc but I do believe they live very much in the now so something like 'missing someone' is not the same as feeling an absence of their presence & the role they perform so therefore wishing to fill that void. ..

my two miss me. i was in hospital two days and the way they greeted me, far more so than when i am out a while.they attach so strongly to their person.no one else will do. nothing an.d no one can fill that void. the person who cares for them when i am away will second that

far more than your post suggests. there is no substitute for the owner. i hate anthropomorphism andthis is not that
this bonding is pure dog
a week on and rescue collie is still my stitched on shadow.

Mark.Smith90

Here is some info I got from a good blog on why dogs howl and how to stop it, thought it might be useful

<snip>
Mark.Smith90, as per the other threads, please do not quote from other people's blogs and websites unless you're prepared to appropriately credit the author and link to the original article.
Thanks,
DBB

robocode

iPink wrote: »

whatever 'science' says

why the inverted commas around science :rolleyes: