Sabertooths and humans coexisted in Germany

Adam Khor

Or rather, scimitar cats (Homotherium, a genus with species up to 400 kgs ) and Homo heidelbergensis, 300.000 years ago:

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.mx/2014/04/humans-and-saber-toothed-tiger-met-in.html#.U0IqPKKGeSq

Kess73

I thought that all Homotherium that were discovered in Europe were in the 100kg to 250kg range? Or did you mean 400lbs rather than 400kg for the European species? Still would not fancy taking one on with a stick though


Open to correction here but I thought Smilodon populator was out on it's own as the only cat thought to have grown to 400kg or above in the wild.

Figured I had better put in the "in the wild" bit before anyone brings up some of the massive siberian tigers that were raised in captivity or one of the huge Ligers.

Manach

First, I recognise the snarl. On my cats if they are not feed on their waking so some of the smilodon gene remains.
Offhand, on the population, there was a programme last month on the La Brea Tar pits (US). From the bones found, they reckoned the US version were social pack animals, moving in family grounds - akin to African lions.

Adam Khor

Kess73 wrote: »

I thought that all Homotherium that were discovered in Europe were in the 100kg to 250kg range? Or did you mean 400lbs rather than 400kg for the European species? Still would not fancy taking one on with a stick though

Not so long ago, the remains of a HUGE specimen were found in the North Sea; it was estimated to weigh up to 400 kgs. It really doesn't surprise me, as Homotherium was very widespread and apparently, just as in modern tigers, bears etc, the ones living closer to the North Pole were bigger than the more southern populations (the Venezuelan Homotherium I believe was rather small).

Kess73 wrote: »

Open to correction here but I thought Smilodon populator was out on it's own as the only cat thought to have grown to 400kg or above in the wild.

Not anymore Xenosmilus too has been estimated at 400 kgs (it had an incredibly heavy build), and Amphimachairodus kabir was apparently over 400 kgs. Also, weights of over 400 kgs have apparently been estimated for Pleistocene tigers found in Russia, China and Indonesia.

Manach wrote: »

First, I recognise the snarl. On my cats if they are not feed on their waking so some of the smilodon gene remains.
Offhand, on the population, there was a programme last month on the La Brea Tar pits (US). From the bones found, they reckoned the US version were social pack animals, moving in family grounds - akin to African lions.

Yes, but their social structure was apparently different from that of lions; whereas lion prides are "ruled" by the much bigger but less numerous males, Smilodon fatalis (North American species) shows little to no sexual dimorphism and apparently males and females are found together in similar numbers. This has led some to suggest that their social unit could be more akin to that of wolves than lions...

Also, interestingly, the so called American lion (Panthera atrox) seems to have been either solitary or lived in small groups. The two major social predators back then were the sabertooth and the dire wolf- not unlike lions and spotted hyenas in modern day Africa.

Kess73

Adam Khor wrote: »

Not so long ago, the remains of a HUGE specimen were found in the North Sea; it was estimated to weigh up to 400 kgs. It really doesn't surprise me, as Homotherium was very widespread and apparently, just as in modern tigers, bears etc, the ones living closer to the North Pole were bigger than the more southern populations (the Venezuelan Homotherium I believe was rather small).



Not anymore Xenosmilus too has been estimated at 400 kgs (it had an incredibly heavy build), and Amphimachairodus kabir was apparently over 400 kgs. Also, weights of over 400 kgs have apparently been estimated for Pleistocene tigers found in Russia, China and Indonesia.

Good to know and gives me reason to seek out new reading material Was not aware that Xenosmilus had been put in the same size/weight class as S. Populator. Had been working under the assumption that S. Populator was still regarded as the known largest felid.


Amphimachairodus kabir I knew there were talks of how it might have been even larger than S. Populator, but thought they were still working off of one close to complete find for A. kabir. Would love to know more about A. kabir, and the others that fall under the Amphimachairodus genus, but there seems to be a lot of guesswork based on the fossils found whereas the likes of S. Populator and S.Fatalis have better data available on them thanks to more being found of them. Would really be something if A. kabir did turn out to be as large as the estimates because it would be heading into the same weight class as good sized grizzly bear. If the current estimates for length/height hold true, then it's build must have been truly massive for it.

Adam Khor

Kess73 wrote: »

Would really be something if A. kabir did turn out to be as large as the estimates because it would be heading into the same weight class as good sized grizzly bear. If the current estimates for length/height hold true, then it's build must have been truly massive for it.

I do wonder how it would compare to a grizzly when it comes to speed and agility. Despite its huge size, if it was anything like other Machairodus and Amphimachairodus species, it probably still had proportions more like a lion or a tiger than a bear... or a Xenosmilus...

For sure, it was too fast to outrun :pac:

Kess73

Adam Khor wrote: »

I do wonder how it would compare to a grizzly when it comes to speed and agility. Despite its huge size, if it was anything like other Machairodus and Amphimachairodus species, it probably still had proportions more like a lion or a tiger than a bear... or a Xenosmilus...

For sure, it was too fast to outrun :pac:

Well looking at the estimated length/height of it, it would be similarish to a large modern day lion but would be packing up to 300kg more mass than a big lion (wild lion rather than a captive one) would onto that length/height.

On paper it would suggest that it was an extremely heavily built powerhouse of an animal. Was not really comparing it to a grizzly in terms of build though, just in terms of size class.

As for outrunning it, just remember the same would hold true here as if you were being chased by fast zombies......you don't have to be faster that what is chasing you, you just have to be faster than whatever person is with you whilst being chased. :d

Of course if you were all alone when the chase started, then it would not be much of a chase methinks.

Fish Finger Pie

Wow! Just imagine Heidelbergensis wrestling one!

Wibbs

Well he wouldn't be on his own so oul Heidl would be a formidable enough foe as a group. Like Inuit sled dogs, catching the scent or crossing the tracks of a polar bear doesn't particularly freak them out, but the slightest whiff of a wolf does. They know he or she ain't alone. Safety in numbers. Heidelbergensis also had throwing spears so they could stand off and tackle big animals if it came to it. Long distance, the next best thing to being there.

Fish Finger Pie

Oh, yeah. Hominins weren't to be f*cked with. They could use weapons, fire, lived in packs and were smart enough to open doors! They must have been one of the scariest animals around.

I watched a program a few years ago that showed that Heidelbergensis was probably an apex hunter. A lot of people have criticized the idea that hominins were very good hunters and claimed they probably just scavenged off the kills of other predators like tigers and bears. On this program they showed that the stone tool scratch marks on animal bones were made BEFORE tooth marks from other predators. The tigers and bears were scavenging from the hominins, not the other way round!

Fish Finger Pie

Sorry, I mean wolves not bears. :rolleyes:

Wibbs

Fish Finger Pie wrote: »

I watched a program a few years ago that showed that Heidelbergensis was probably an apex hunter.

Highly likely I'd say alright. Ditto for Neandertals. What's interesting is although they were apex predators and around for a very long time, they caused no obvious extinctions where they lived. We come along and species start one of the biggest die offs in earths history, one that continues down to today.

Adam Khor

Fish Finger Pie wrote: »

The tigers and bears were scavenging from the hominins, not the other way round!

I would imagine it went both ways. Even today some African peoples scavenge from lion kills.

Galvasean

So Quest for Fire was right!

Manach

Which raises interesting questions on whether the origins of human language communications was a result of this small group behaviour or vice versa.