State vs fee-paying - teacher pay

Mr Pseudonym

Apologies for this thread which only seeks to have a query of mine answered.

My understanding was that fee-paying schools may hire extra teachers (on top of their 23:1 allocation) but that they were required to comply with the national pay scale. Someone said something to me which, if correct, would prove what I understood to be the case false. Can anyone clarify for me?

evolving_doors

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Apologies for this thread which only seeks to have a query of mine answered.

My understanding was that fee-paying schools may hire extra teachers (on top of their 23:1 allocation) but that they were required to comply with the national pay scale. Someone said something to me which, if correct, would prove what I understood to be the case false. Can anyone clarify for me?

No.. Judge ruled in employment case in 2010 the privately paid was a private arrangement between the schooland the teacher, the school could write whatever contract the liked. which flies in the face of employment law if you ask me. Two people doing same job/same qualifications/same length of service but different pay...

Previously the schools had an agreement with asti to have pay parity, soooo it depends what your contract says now! Pension in private paid is zero also.

Only thing though is if you switch from private to dept. the dept. recognise your service for increments.

So I think the answer to your question imo is...
It depends!

Mr Pseudonym

Armelodie wrote: »

No.. Judge ruled in employment case in 2010 the privately paid was a private arrangement between the schooland the teacher, the school could write whatever contract the liked. which flies in the face of employment law if you ask me. Two people doing same job/same qualifications/same length of service but different pay...

Previously the schools had an agreement with asti to have pay parity, soooo it depends what your contract says now! Pension in private paid is zero also.

Only thing though is if you switch from private to dept. the dept. recognise your service for increments.

So I think the answer to your question imo is...
It depends!

Thank you very much for that!

I don't know where I stand on the state-support-for-fee-paying-schools debate - I have concerns both ways. But, one of the arguments I used always to make was that, although fee-paying schools could hire extra teachers to decrease class size and increase range of subjects, they could not hoard talented teachers (at least, not with financial incentives). As you seem to suggest, the private contracts are being used as a way of hiring teachers more cheaply. At present, all that differentiates fee-paying schools is (usually) better facilities and smaller class sizes. But, if that were to change, and the general standard of instruction became superior, I would feel more uneasy.

highly1111

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Thank you very much for that!

I don't know where I stand on the state-support-for-fee-paying-schools debate - I have concerns both ways. But, one of the arguments I used always to make was that, although fee-paying schools could hire extra teachers to decrease class size and increase range of subjects, they could not hoard talented teachers (at least, not with financial incentives). As you seem to suggest, the private contracts are being used as a way of hiring teachers more cheaply. At present, all that differentiates fee-paying schools is (usually) better facilities and smaller class sizes. But, if that were to change, and the general standard of instruction became superior, I would feel more uneasy.

Don't forget however that although the money may be better on a private contract, you don't get the same pension benefits as you would with the department.

Mr Pseudonym

highly1111 wrote: »

Don't forget however that although the money may be better on a private contract, you don't get the same pension benefits as you would with the department.

Well, what I understood from Armelodie's post was that the pay may in fact be worse. I went to a fee-paying school, and there was quite a turnover of younger staff, while that of senior teachers remained static. I suspect the reason may be that younger teachers will work for less in order that they can step onto the increments ladder, before then finding work in state-sector or getting a Department contract.

highly1111

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Well, what I understood from Armelodie's post was that the pay may in fact be worse. I went to a fee-paying school, and there was quite a turnover of younger staff, while that of senior teachers remained static. I suspect the reason may be that younger teachers will work for less in order that they can step onto the increments ladder, before then finding work in state-sector or getting a Department contract.

There's two sides to the argument. With the massive over-supply of teachers, private schools may well negotiate cheaper salaries. However, I had a private contract with a private school where I got paid more than I would have with the department. There were several reasons for this - it was a boarding school with Saturday lessons and there were also extra duties which you wouldn't have otherwise had with your standard public school. Also, private schools may offer more to deter their best teachers from taking up department jobs and therefore have to compensate for lack of permanency and less beneficial pensions.

Mr Pseudonym

highly1111 wrote: »

There's two sides to the argument. With the massive over-supply of teachers, private schools may well negotiate cheaper salaries. However, I had a private contract with a private school where I got paid more than I would have with the department. There were several reasons for this - it was a boarding school with Saturday lessons and there were also extra duties which you wouldn't have otherwise had with your standard public school. Also, private schools may offer more to deter their best teachers from taking up department jobs and therefore have to compensate for lack of permanency and less beneficial pensions.

That's interesting. Thank you for your experience. How did you find working in the fee-paying school? How does it compare with subsequent experiences?

evolving_doors

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Well, what I understood from Armelodie's post was that the pay may in fact be worse. I went to a fee-paying school, and there was quite a turnover of younger staff, while that of senior teachers remained static. I suspect the reason may be that younger teachers will work for less in order that they can step onto the increments ladder, before then finding work in state-sector or getting a Department contract.

You'll porobably have found that most if not all the senior teachers were on regular dept. pay. The extra fees probably went to sports coaches etc. The private paid would also be used for the 'extra' junior staff to keep the class sizes low... thenwhen the oldies left the dept. positions would be transferred. Then again I'm not an expert but that would be my reckoning.

How about this?
Google downsizes and sheds 500 jobs, big deal.
Fee paying schools cut equivalent amount due to changes in ptr and its considered a 'win' for Ruari..(despite all his preaching he doesn't mind if certain education ministers went to fee paying schools and didnt mind sending their kids own there either!).

Id be delighted if our school switched over to dept. .. Better ptr, big capitation every year, more dept jobs...

doc_17

If you have a private contract then you don't accrue pension entitlements. But since you would pay PRSI Class A1 would you be entitled to the state pension instead? Those of us who were sold out (ie post 04) pay Class A1 and the pension/levies sober are taxed on the double.

Mr Pseudonym

doc_17 wrote: »

If you have a private contract then you don't accrue pension entitlements. But since you would pay PRSI Class A1 would you be entitled to the state pension instead? Those of us who were sold out (ie post 04) pay Class A1 and the pension/levies sober are taxed on the double.

I wonder if you could tell me roughly what you reckon the difference in pension would be for a career teacher on Dept contract vs private one? I tried to find out myself, but it proved quite complicated.

highly1111

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

That's interesting. Thank you for your experience. How did you find working in the fee-paying school? How does it compare with subsequent experiences?

I've worked in one of the poshest most expensive schools in the country and I've worked in DEIS schools in extremely disadvantaged areas in Dublin - and a lot in-between.

The main advantage of a private school is that they can expel students much more easily. I know that sounds harsh and I may get bashed for it but having the option to remove a student who is that disruptive is a blessing.

However, what I've come to learn since I started teaching 5 years ago is that the quality of a school all depends on the quality of management. I've worked in schools in "good" areas where the principal has been brutal and the monkeys were running the zoo and I've worked in "bad" areas where the schools were excellent and there were very few discipline issues and the kids were really motivated.

I've 3 kids and we only have the eldest down for some secondary schools - however, I wouldn't make a decision on where to send my child until the time actually comes. Schools go through cycles - a bad principal can ruin a school (and its reputation) - I really don't understand these parents who say that they're sending their 2 year old to X school.... so much can happen in the meantime.

The best school I ever worked in was a private school - but I think if you had the same principal in any school - I would have the same sentiment. Someone I aspire too.

doc_17

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I wonder if you could tell me roughly what you reckon the difference in pension would be for a career teacher on Dept contract vs private one? I tried to find out myself, but it proved quite complicated.

What do you mean by private pension? How would you contribute it?

Mr Pseudonym

doc_17 wrote: »

What do you mean by private pension? How would you contribute it?

Excuse me: I meant, Dept contract vs Private (fee-paying) pension-less contract. In other words, how much more is a teacher pension than the state pension?

Mr Pseudonym

highly1111 wrote: »

I've worked in one of the poshest most expensive schools in the country and I've worked in DEIS schools in extremely disadvantaged areas in Dublin - and a lot in-between.

The main advantage of a private school is that they can expel students much more easily. I know that sounds harsh and I may get bashed for it but having the option to remove a student who is that disruptive is a blessing.

However, what I've come to learn since I started teaching 5 years ago is that the quality of a school all depends on the quality of management. I've worked in schools in "good" areas where the principal has been brutal and the monkeys were running the zoo and I've worked in "bad" areas where the schools were excellent and there were very few discipline issues and the kids were really motivated.

I've 3 kids and we only have the eldest down for some secondary schools - however, I wouldn't make a decision on where to send my child until the time actually comes. Schools go through cycles - a bad principal can ruin a school (and its reputation) - I really don't understand these parents who say that they're sending their 2 year old to X school.... so much can happen in the meantime.

The best school I ever worked in was a private school - but I think if you had the same principal in any school - I would have the same sentiment. Someone I aspire too.

Thank you for that detailed response! So, King's Hos, Columba's, Clongowes..?

I attended a school which is known for being academic. But, from the inside, and speaking as one who is very interested in innovative pedagogy and curriculums, the standard of teaching was distinctly average. That's not to disparage, and one or two of my teachers were exceptional. But, in general, there was little in terms of teaching that would distinguish it from an average school - teachers relying on textbooks, little multimedia use, etc. Every classroom had a projector, yet only two of my, say, thirty teachers during my time there would use one regularly. I left the year before every classroom was fitted-out with an interactive whiteboard, so maybe that has since changed. I stress that I don't speak as an aggrieved nor mindless past pupil, and I'm aware that I didn't experience many of the teachers. But, those that I did were as would be expected, and stayed well within the confines of the course. Many JC subjects are sufficiently light as to enable deviating from the course, yet I experienced none of that.

I also attended the best-known grind school (:o) for a repeat year, and what I experienced there was far-in-a-way superior. The school in question has a very negative reputation, but while I did encounter some 'teaching-to-the-test', my overwhelming experience of the school was that the students, rather than the teachers, were responsible for its reputation. The notes handed-out (most subjects don't require a text book), though concise, were exhaustive in their content. Don't bother asking for a prediction because almost all teachers will fudge the question. The school showed innovation that my first one hadn't: for instance, splitting English into four components (Writing, Single Text, Comparative, and Poetry) with each being taught by a different teacher, allows teachers to specialise, and students to experience different styles, etc. There are other advantages, such as avoiding the silly conflation of literature and creative writing.

I am not griping! Just highlighting what appears to me to be the fact that the standard of education is often not much, if any, superior. This is in contrast with the UK, where in the top echelons of private (Public) schools - Westminster, St Paul's, etc - the education is, from what I've read and heard, noticeably superior.

What you say, highly1111, about exclusion is an important point (I presume you mean from class, rather than school). In my school, a teacher could "exclude" someone, which would require the student to leave the classroom, go to a supervised study-area for the rest of the period, and attend detention the next Wednesday. Without the ability to do that, it must be incredibly debilitating. Effectively, the teacher has the power to click their fingers and the misbehaviour is gone!

Mr Pseudonym

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

In general, there was little in terms of teaching that would distinguish it from an average school - teachers relying on textbooks, little multimedia use, etc.

Please don't think for a moment that I am implying that most teachers in the country teach in that way! Just that, I too experienced underwhelming teaching!

Supersonic42

Pretty sure I've read somewhere that if a teacher in a private school moves to a state school they will be viewed as a new entrant and subject to the new pay scales

donegal11

Supersonic42 wrote: »

Pretty sure I've read somewhere that if a teacher in a private school moves to a state school they will be viewed as a new entrant and subject to the new pay scales

They'd be classed as a new entrant for pay scales only if the never thought post qualification in a public school pre 2011, for pension after 26 weeks out of the public sector your on the new pension scale.

doc_17 wrote: »

If you have a private contract then you don't accrue pension entitlements. But since you would pay PRSI Class A1 would you be entitled to the state pension instead? Those of us who were sold out (ie post 04) pay Class A1 and the pension/levies sober are taxed on the double.

Class A1 prsi has been in place since 1995 and even before that reduced prsi was payable.If you have a non working spouse when you reach pension age you'll also able to claim 200ish euro for them, on the old system they would receive nothing so it isn't all bad.