Car manufacturing in Ireland

bear1

I was reading an article online about the UK's possible referendum on leaving the EU and that 90% of the car manufacturers are against it.
So it got me thinking, if the UK did decide to leave the EU what are the odds some manufacturers would look to Ireland to move manufacturing?
I believe the space is there, the tax incentives are there, the language is there, minimal red tape and an adequate infrastructure.
Anyone think it could be a possibility?

ba_barabus

No chance. We have no workers skilled and no support industries to help manufacturing. The actual car factories are only a small part of the production process.

bear1

ba_barabus wrote: »

No chance. We have no workers skilled and no support industries to help manufacturing. The actual car factories are only a small part of the production process.

Possible relocation opportunities?

Old diesel

bear1 wrote: »

Possible relocation opportunities?

in any case - I think its showboating by the manufacturers - presumably the Uk will still be able to trade freely into and from the EU if it left.

Pretty sure Scania, Volvo and Saab were trading into the likes of the Uk when Sweden was NOT AN EU member - but of course im open to correction on that as im not sure when precisely Sweden joined the EU

Turkeys not an EU member - yet isn't that where Transits are built now - they closed down the Southhampton plant.

Its obviously easier for car manufacturers to trade to EU countries from an EU based factory - hence why they are making noises.

But do people seriously think that Nissan would shut down Sunderland for example just because the UK leaves the EU.

Gives Pro EU people a trill as it demonstrates EU awesomness.

Trouble is however - im not sure how its in the EU interest to restrict trade from Uk into EU in event of Uk leaving EU.

The only reason for it imo - would be the EU behaving like petulant little children

bear1

Old diesel wrote: »

in any case - I think its showboating by the manufacturers - presumably the Uk will still be able to trade freely into and from the EU if it left.

Pretty sure Scania, Volvo and Saab were trading into the likes of the Uk when Sweden was NOT AN EU member - but of course im open to correction on that as im not sure when precisely Sweden joined the EU

Turkeys not an EU member - yet isn't that where Transits are built now - they closed down the Southhampton plant.

Its obviously easier for car manufacturers to trade to EU countries from an EU based factory - hence why they are making noises.

But do people seriously think that Nissan would shut down Sunderland for example just because the UK leaves the EU.

Gives Pro EU people a trill as it demonstrates EU awesomness.

Trouble is however - im not sure how its in the EU interest to restrict trade from Uk into EU in event of Uk leaving EU.

The only reason for it imo - would be the EU behaving like petulant little children

That's a valid point.
I know our geographical position isn't as good as the UK's, just thought with our competitiveness it may make up for it.

Old diesel

bear1 wrote: »

That's a valid point.
I know our geographical position isn't as good as the UK's, just thought with our competitiveness it may make up for it.

Well to be fair im assuming the muppets in EU - won't be petulant children and won't hinder Uk exporting in anyway if it leaves the EU.

Someone made the point that we don't have the support expertise etc - for car manufacturing.

That may well be true - but the reality is - Ireland should be trying to attract and develop new industries.

If we don't have the expertise - then the alternative - is to develop the expertise.

Im not saying that car manufacturing is suitable for Ireland - but at same time - I don't feel that lack of skills now should hinder what we do in the future - IF we could develop the skillset in the country over time.

It would all take a lot of planning - but even if you could get ONE decent size car factory into Ireland - it would be well worth developing the skillset.

So im pro the idea of developing car manufacturing in Ireland - but sadly it won't happen because it would be seen as too impossible to develop the skillsets needed.

bear1

Didn't Enda (I know, I know) suggest to the boss of Tesla to have the EU manfucturing of their cars located in Ireland?
Something to possibly watch out for.
As you said, the skills would need to be catered for.
We all had to start somewhere, IT etc. So I think we could also have the skills in this sector.
With the prospect of having high oil reserves we could get a fairly good step into sectors which previously would never have been possible.

Boskowski

Not sure about our actual competitiveness. Aren't manufacturing companies running for da hills last few years what with high wages, unions, rates, infrastructure, insurance, energy costs and whatnot? Could we realistically manufacture a car that can be competitively priced?

Tea 1000

bear1 wrote: »

Didn't Enda (I know, I know) suggest to the boss of Tesla to have the EU manfucturing of their cars located in Ireland?
Something to possibly watch out for.
As you said, the skills would need to be catered for.
We all had to start somewhere, IT etc. So I think we could also have the skills in this sector.
With the prospect of having high oil reserves we could get a fairly good step into sectors which previously would never have been possible.

Ya, he did, more than once in that conversation, to no reply from yer man, who was too nice to say "No Enda, I won't be doing that".

Tea 1000

Boskowski wrote: »

Not sure about our actual competitiveness. Aren't manufacturing companies running for da hills last few years what with high wages, unions, rates, infrastructure, insurance, energy costs and whatnot? Could we realistically manufacture a car that can be competitively priced?

This is true, and is the reason why they won't come here. Especially since they could set up a sales plant here to avail of the tax benefits with none of the wage drawbacks of a manufacturing plant.
Manufacturing is too expensive in this country, and I type this while I work in one!

mickdw

I can just see it now. Government bring Nissan over here with a promise of low taxes and half a million qashqai sales over 10 years.
They can then bring in the new car tax of 5k per year across the board and supply a new qashqai to each family every 10 years. Families with 2 working will have to pay twice but get one car while families on welfare will be entitled to a free car.
Seems fair.

bear1

Boskowski wrote: »

Not sure about our actual competitiveness. Aren't manufacturing companies running for da hills last few years what with high wages, unions, rates, infrastructure, insurance, energy costs and whatnot? Could we realistically manufacture a car that can be competitively priced?

I would have agreed pre-recession times but things have changed.
Wages are lower and infrastructure is progressing well.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-manufacturing-sector-is-top-eurozone-performer-30146665.html

Ireland's main problem is remaining cost competitive and access to finance needs to be easier which I think are the key factors.

bear1

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Ya, he did, more than once in that conversation, to no reply from yer man, who was too nice to say "No Enda, I won't be doing that".

Did some Googling on that, and the only thing so far that I can find is that possibly Tesla will have showrooms here.
So you may be right.
I think our electric car sector might make more sense seeing as it is growing here. As we are a relatively small country the infrastructure needed to cater for it would not be as extensive as in other countries.
Already you can see charge points located throughout Dublin so maybe here is a key area?

Old diesel

Boskowski wrote: »

Not sure about our actual competitiveness. Aren't manufacturing companies running for da hills last few years what with high wages, unions, rates, infrastructure, insurance, energy costs and whatnot? Could we realistically manufacture a car that can be competitively priced?

that's a fair point.

IF you buy into the wind energy argument (I don't but im not an expert) then the claim is that Irelands drive to wind energy will help drive down energy costs.

How are we doing for wages at the moment - certainly they were too high in Celtic tiger era

Not sure what the way forward for Ireland is though - wind energy is been touted as way forward - but im sceptical about it delivering the numbers on jobs - in the long term.

I know that's moving away from the topic (apologies ) but I suppose rather then saying "can't be done" - it would be better to ask - how do we create the environment for new industry (not neccessarly car manufacturing but new industry in general) - to come into Ireland and/or be created in Ireland.

Old diesel

One thing im curious about - is how okay - Ireland is uncompetitive for manufacturing (of cars) but less then 50 miles away across the sea the next door neighbours can make it work.

Raises the question of how (as a country) we could develop our competitiveness better in the future

Marcusm

bear1 wrote: »

That's a valid point.
I know our geographical position isn't as good as the UK's, just thought with our competitiveness it may make up for it.

What competitiveness? No existing assembly operation, no components operation, no significant steel or aluminium manufacturer, equivalent or higher electricity costs, no significant surplus electricity supply, no skilled engineering or CAM workforce. To be honest, ireland would not compete with any European location (probably not even Luxembourg which has a steel history) for a single car plant not to mind a host of them.

Successive governments and industrial development authorities have focused on greenfield manufacturing opportunities (Apple, Compaq, Dell, Intel) because a workforce and supply chain would have to be created irrespective of location.

Marcusm

bear1 wrote: »

Did some Googling on that, and the only thing so far that I can find is that possibly Tesla will have showrooms here.
So you may be right.
I think our electric car sector might make more sense seeing as it is growing here. As we are a relatively small country the infrastructure needed to cater for it would not be as extensive as in other countries.
Already you can see charge points located throughout Dublin so maybe here is a key area?

It's true that Ireland is a fairly small country in geographical so but it's also at a lower density than most other countries which is the greater factor. Israel and Denmark were chosen by Better Place to trial battery switching technology (a potential answer to range anxiety) because of density of population. That company is now being restructured despite being highly financed and a production deal with Renault/Nissan.

bear1

Marcusm wrote: »

What competitiveness? No existing assembly operation, no components operation, no significant steel or aluminium manufacturer, equivalent or higher electricity costs, no significant surplus electricity supply, no skilled engineering or CAM workforce. To be honest, ireland would not compete with any European location (probably not even Luxembourg which has a steel history) for a single car plant not to mind a host of them.

Successive governments and industrial development authorities have focused on greenfield manufacturing opportunities (Apple, Compaq, Dell, Intel) because a workforce and supply chain would have to be created irrespective of location.

I'd agree also with this, but the UK had to start somewhere.
By competitiveness I meant that we do have a skilled workforce in general, our taxes for companies are low, the infrastructure is coming to a good standard, we have the English language on our side and minimal red tape.

Old diesel

Marcusm wrote: »

What competitiveness? No existing assembly operation, no components operation, no significant steel or aluminium manufacturer, equivalent or higher electricity costs, no significant surplus electricity supply, no skilled engineering or CAM workforce. To be honest, ireland would not compete with any European location (probably not even Luxembourg which has a steel history) for a single car plant not to mind a host of them.

Successive governments and industrial development authorities have focused on greenfield manufacturing opportunities (Apple, Compaq, Dell, Intel) because a workforce and supply chain would have to be created irrespective of location.

What your saying is perfectly valid - and its fair to say that we wont see car manufacturing here for exactly the reasons you describe

It does however raise questions as to how Ireland can drive itself forward - because if we rule ourselves out of everything on the basis of what we don't have now - we end up with a narrow focus on certain industries.

At some point been the sort of country we are - we are going to have to accept that we will have to help ourselves by creating support infrastructure/supply chains/other needed

Btw - I think it is worth noting in the context of this thread - that the moffat Mounty forklift trucks (the yokes you see on the back of trucks or trailors - which truckers can use to load/unload themselves) were built in Dundalk - maybe they still are - I don't know.

There is also a trailor manufacturer in Kildare (Dennisons) and Liebherr make Cranes down in Killarney

I realise obviously those are specialist jobs - but worth noting in the context of how we approach creating new industry in Ireland in the future - and how we as a country plan for that.

Again - im sorry for off topic but just responding to points raised.

I fully realise of course we won't ever have a car industry but I hate ruling a country out of industries

bear1

I'm glad this thread is turning into an interesting fact provider

Old diesel

Btw - heres the Dennison crowd


http://www.dennisontrailers.com/history.html

Marcusm

bear1 wrote: »

I'd agree also with this, but the UK had to start somewhere.
By competitiveness I meant that we do have a skilled workforce in general, our taxes for companies are low, the infrastructure is coming to a good standard, we have the English language on our side and minimal red tape.

The UK got to start the industrial revolution and carry through with iron smelting, steel manufacturing, steam engines, locomotives, a large urbansied workforce and consumer base following through up until (probably) the 1950s. This creates a competitive advantage (depth and breadth of engineering talent and supplier base) which eroded in the 60/70s but has to an extent found its niche now in the luxury end. Sunderland (Nissan) is to an extent an aberration (positive industrial development strategy) but which benefitted from a large heavy manufacturing based workforce which Ireland has never had.

Car manufacturing is not the sort of industrial manufacturing which I would like to see the Irish government focus on as inherently the only "input" in Ireland will be labour market dependent but which is completely out of whack with prices on Czech/Slovak republics, Poland etc. The type of subsidiaies which would need to be provided upfront would need to be there forever.

The real thing which needs to be fostered is innovation. The tech companies have brought large workforces but with the exception of Intel, I'm not convinvced that much of it is long term. Look at Dell as an example, it was an assembly opoeration for components manufactured elsewhere. It was planned pre GATT/WTO meaning that an EU base was necessary to ensure expansion of sales in Europe. Going forward that is little relevant and the labour for final assemply can be sourced cheaper elsewhere.

It's one of the forces of globalisation, we all want more goods and cheaper ones. To maintain an employed labour market we need to target what we can do efficiently.

I'm not personally convinced that back offices processing for global financial firms and outsourced multi lingual contact/support centres for IT giants is the solution either.

bear1

Marcusm wrote: »

The UK got to start the industrial revolution and carry through with iron smelting, steel manufacturing, steam engines, locomotives, a large urbansied workforce and consumer base following through up until (probably) the 1950s. This creates a competitive advantage (depth and breadth of engineering talent and supplier base) which eroded in the 60/70s but has to an extent found its niche now in the luxury end. Sunderland (Nissan) is to an extent an aberration (positive industrial development strategy) but which benefitted from a large heavy manufacturing based workforce which Ireland has never had.

Car manufacturing is not the sort of industrial manufacturing which I would like to see the Irish government focus on as inherently the only "input" in Ireland will be labour market dependent but which is completely out of whack with prices on Czech/Slovak republics, Poland etc. The type of subsidiaies which would need to be provided upfront would need to be there forever.

The real thing which needs to be fostered is innovation. The tech companies have brought large workforces but with the exception of Intel, I'm not convinvced that much of it is long term. Look at Dell as an example, it was an assembly opoeration for components manufactured elsewhere. It was planned pre GATT/WTO meaning that an EU base was necessary to ensure expansion of sales in Europe. Going forward that is little relevant and the labour for final assemply can be sourced cheaper elsewhere.

It's one of the forces of globalisation, we all want more goods and cheaper ones. To maintain an employed labour market we need to target what we can do efficiently.

I'm not personally convinced that back offices processing for global financial firms and outsourced multi lingual contact/support centres for IT giants is the solution either.

I like your posting style, intriguing.

Old diesel

Marcusm wrote: »

The UK got to start the industrial revolution and carry through with iron smelting, steel manufacturing, steam engines, locomotives, a large urbansied workforce and consumer base following through up until (probably) the 1950s. This creates a competitive advantage (depth and breadth of engineering talent and supplier base) which eroded in the 60/70s but has to an extent found its niche now in the luxury end. Sunderland (Nissan) is to an extent an aberration (positive industrial development strategy) but which benefitted from a large heavy manufacturing based workforce which Ireland has never had.

Car manufacturing is not the sort of industrial manufacturing which I would like to see the Irish government focus on as inherently the only "input" in Ireland will be labour market dependent but which is completely out of whack with prices on Czech/Slovak republics, Poland etc. The type of subsidiaies which would need to be provided upfront would need to be there forever.

The real thing which needs to be fostered is innovation. The tech companies have brought large workforces but with the exception of Intel, I'm not convinvced that much of it is long term. Look at Dell as an example, it was an assembly opoeration for components manufactured elsewhere. It was planned pre GATT/WTO meaning that an EU base was necessary to ensure expansion of sales in Europe. Going forward that is little relevant and the labour for final assemply can be sourced cheaper elsewhere.

It's one of the forces of globalisation, we all want more goods and cheaper ones. To maintain an employed labour market we need to target what we can do efficiently.

I'm not personally convinced that back offices processing for global financial firms and outsourced multi lingual contact/support centres for IT giants is the solution either.

Your right innovation is a key important area to be driven forward in Ireland.

You are also right - on targeting what we can do well (efficiently).

I do worry however that what Ireland can do well - covers too narrow an area at the moment.

And we need to develop the countries skillsets and capabilities going into the future - so that we can widen what we can do.

Zoney

It's not as though there's zero expertise or involvement in the automotive sector in Ireland. Chips that go into cars are not only designed but manufactured here (this requires more extensive knowledge of automotive industry than just electronics), small scale R&D and individual parts of internal car mechanics are designed here. There's a lot could be built upon, and of course having the bottom end of the process more local (heavy industry/assembly) would support even more high-level knowledge economy activity as well as services sector (automation support, etc)

bear1

I think energy wise we could do seriously well.

ednwireland

Marcusm wrote: »

Sunderland (Nissan) is to an extent an aberration (positive industrial development strategy) but which benefitted from a large heavy manufacturing based workforce which Ireland has never had.

sorry what do you mean aberration

Honda build the crv,jazz and civic in swindon, toyota the avenis and auris in burnaston (near derby), mini in cowly, vauxhall astra luton, jag landrover in liverpool/solihull

+ all the high end and niche stuff

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2210199/Britain-producing-MORE-cars-Germany-How-UK-car-production-capital-Europe.html

Old diesel

ednwireland wrote: »

sorry what do you mean aberration

Honda build the crv,jazz and civic in swindon, toyota the avenis and auris in burnaston (near derby), mini in cowly, vauxhall astra luton, jag landrover in liverpool/solihull

+ all the high end and niche stuff

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2210199/Britain-producing-MORE-cars-Germany-How-UK-car-production-capital-Europe.html

While certainly we won't be making cars over here - I do think that the Uk success in the car industry - does highlight the importance for Ireland for planning its future industries/economic/development as a country.

Car industry works well for Uk because it has developed its ability in that area.

Ireland needs to develop its strong points - for example we are quite good at (for example) dairy farming.

But we can't depend on simply a small arena of industries so need to look at developing the skills of our people in a way that allows us to diversify and not be overly reliant on a small number of industries like tourism, Agri and FDI.

And we need to develop our countries resources/infrastructure - to give us the chance to develop as many jobs as we can in as wide a range of industries as we can.

ba_barabus

Somebody raised a point earlier about manufacturing Tesla cars here earlier. My understanding of the approach being taken by Tesla is that cars will be assembled locally using CKD kits. In other words the cars will only be screwed together, not actually made. Local content will be kept to a minimum. While training is needed for this it's not particularly difficult to do and also not hugely profitable if wages are high.

The examples being given of manufacturers in the UK outsource work such as design and development of the cars, have setup and maintained long term investment in UK Universities to ensure a future supply of graduates, the outsource leather work to specialists who have worked with leather products far longer than the motorcar existed and in general work with a range of engineering companies which support the production of the cars.

These plants have been located near all of these support industries and to actually come up with a green field site in Ireland for such a huge range of manufacturing when we have little or no history in it would be a very costly, risky and unnecessary waste of resources. For recent history on it look at DMC as they faced all of these issues when the selected Belfast. The overcame some and failed at others.

bear1

ba_barabus wrote: »

Somebody raised a point earlier about manufacturing Tesla cars here earlier. My understanding of the approach being taken by Tesla is that cars will be assembled locally using CKD kits. In other words the cars will only be screwed together, not actually made. Local content will be kept to a minimum. While training is needed for this it's not particularly difficult to do and also not hugely profitable if wages are high.

The examples being given of manufacturers in the UK outsource work such as design and development of the cars, have setup and maintained long term investment in UK Universities to ensure a future supply of graduates, the outsource leather work to specialists who have worked with leather products far longer than the motorcar existed and in general work with a range of engineering companies which support the production of the cars.

These plants have been located near all of these support industries and to actually come up with a green field site in Ireland for such a huge range of manufacturing when we have little or no history in it would be a very costly, risky and unnecessary waste of resources. For recent history on it look at DMC as they faced all of these issues when the selected Belfast. The overcame some and failed at others.

That was me
Still though, it puts our foot through the door shall we say.

ba_barabus

bear1 wrote: »

Still though, it puts our foot through the door shall we say.

We did a lot of that here up until the early 80's. The quality was dire however. Just ask anyone with an original Irish assembled Ford Esc rot

bear1

ba_barabus wrote: »

We did a lot of that here up until the early 80's. The quality was dire however. Just ask anyone with an original Irish assembled Ford Esc rot

Yeah true, but you also hear how the older Toyotas that were built in the UK were of bad quality.
Carina was it?

ba_barabus

bear1 wrote: »

Yeah true, but you also hear how the older Toyotas that were built in the UK were of bad quality.
Carina was it?

They weren't badly built, they just weren't as good as the ones built in Japan

Old diesel

ba_barabus wrote: »

They weren't badly built, they just weren't as good as the ones built in Japan

Bear in mind too - that "the ones built in Japan" were some of the best cars ever built for quality and reliability - so even if something was only 75 percent as good - youd still have a decently built reliable enough car tbh

Marcusm

ednwireland wrote: »

sorry what do you mean aberration

Honda build the crv,jazz and civic in swindon, toyota the avenis and auris in burnaston (near derby), mini in cowly, vauxhall astra luton, jag landrover in liverpool/solihull

+ all the high end and niche stuff

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2210199/Britain-producing-MORE-cars-Germany-How-UK-car-production-capital-Europe.html

An aberration in the sense that some of these transplants (I chose Sunderland) were some of the few success stories of the Conservative government initiatives of the 1980s, not that they're not laudable (they certainly are) but that most of their industrial development policy was a failure.

It's particularly sad that they lost out on the rolling stock side as there was a diversified manufacturing base which needed support, export support and orders from the domestic network. It was a heavy industry in which ongoing maintenance, refurbs and overhauls equal the upfront cost of the rolling stock. The indigineous manufacturing base should therefore have had a competitive advantage but this was lost.

I should also say the Astra is not built in Luton -it was moved to Ellesmere Port. Luton is only for vans now as far as I know.

Old diesel

Marcusm wrote: »

An aberration in the sense that some of these transplants (I chose Sunderland) were some of the few success stories of the Conservative government initiatives of the 1980s, not that they're not laudable (they certainly are) but that most of their industrial development policy was a failure.

It's particularly sad that they lost out on the rolling stock side as there was a diversified manufacturing base which needed support, export support and orders from the domestic network. It was a heavy industry in which ongoing maintenance, refurbs and overhauls equal the upfront cost of the rolling stock. The indigineous manufacturing base should therefore have had a competitive advantage but this was lost.

I should also say the Astra is not built in Luton -it was moved to Ellesmere Port. Luton is only for vans now as far as I know.

And just to illustrate how difficult it is to keep car manufacturing going - that Ellesmere Port plant has been threatened with closure twice in the last 6 years according to this weeks Autocar.

Also Ford don't make cars in Dagenham anymore (just engines), Pug no longer make cars in Coventry either.

Theres a tendency for manufacturers to try and have production at fewer sites for greater efficiencies as far as I know

ednwireland

bear1 wrote: »

Yeah true, but you also hear how the older Toyotas that were built in the UK were of bad quality.
Carina was it?

start up issues at the plant mainly i think, remember getting a carina e (93) when my corolla was in getting serviced (which they broke and needed a gearbox rebuild) and it wasnt great

i beleive they got a lot better after that ( i lived in derby when the plant was setup)

Voodoomelon

Can you imagine the Monday morning cars rolling off the line. The doors would be upside down and would have wing mirrors for windscreen wipers.

ba_barabus

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Can you imagine the Monday morning cars rolling off the line. The doors would be upside down and would have wing mirrors for windscreen wipers.

They'd all be 'MINT' and have the service book missing from new. As for windows and seats, SSCHUUURRRRRR DEYR EGGSTRAAAZZZZ

For Forks Sake

ba_barabus wrote: »

They'd all be 'MINT' and have the service book missing from new. As for windows and seats, SSCHUUURRRRRR DEYR EGGSTRAAAZZZZ

Will fly NCT.

hfallada

But these are the not the manufacturing jobs we want. They are going assembly a few parts here until our wages are too high and productions is moved elsewhere in European eg like Dell.

Where as high value which requires high levels of skill like Intel is the manufacturing we want in Ireland. Factories which pay brilliantly, are loyal to Ireland and have R&D here,