Third Scottish Team

odin_ie

Sponsor keen for new Pro12 rugby team in Aberdeen

A major sports sponsor says it would like to back the creation of a third Pro12 rugby team for Scotland - based in its home town of Aberdeen.
Aberdeen Asset Management already sponsors major events like sailing's Cowes Week and the Scottish Open golf.
"I'd love to see a rugby team there of the calibre of Edinburgh or Glasgow, a professional team," chief executive Martin Gilbert told BBC Scotland.

"Because I think, in rugby, Scotland still needs more professional teams."
The Scottish Rugby Union disbanded the Border Reivers in 2007 in order to concentrate funds on Edinburgh and Glasgow Warriors.
But the future of the game in the country has again come into focus with the international team once more finishing second bottom of the Six Nations table and ending their campaign with a record defeat in Wales.
Ahead of the 51-3 defeat in Cardiff, former England captain Lewis Moody warned that Scotland, presently ranked 10th in the world, could disappear as a rugby force because it only has two professional sides from which to pick its players.

The city of Aberdeen showed its capability to support its football team on Sunday, when more than 40,000 fans turned out to watch Derek McInnes's side beat Inverness Caledonian Thistle in the Scottish League Cup final in Glasgow.

Gilbert, whose company has sponsored Edinburgh in the past, thinks the north-east would also give its backing to a Pro12 rugby team.
"I think it would be supported up there because you'd get everywhere north of Dundee supportive of that sort of strategy," he said.
"It would be great and we would love to be involved in something like that.
"I think we do need to do something pretty radical.
"We've sponsored Edinburgh and we'd love to have a professional set-up in the north east."
Gilbert's company was Edinburgh's sponsor from 2008 until 2013, when it was outbid by BT Sport.
As well as sailing and golf events, Aberdeen Asset Management, an international investment management group with offices around the world, sponsors racing driver Paul Di Resta, Scottish Hockey, golfers Paul Lawrie and Catriona Matthew, plus ski schools.
Gilbert admits he has not been party to any discussions with the SRU about establishing a professional rugby team in Aberdeen.
However, the chief executive fears that the governing body might instead drop one of the two present professional teams because of tightening finances.

"My worry is they'll go the other way and cut even more," he said.
A Scottish Rugby spokesman suggested it would like to create a third team - but only if there was sufficient funding.
"We welcome any dialogue with any individual/s that would enable us to expand our investment in professional teams," he said in a statement.
"Clearly, at present, there would be a number of hurdles that we would have to surmount, including financial and other considerations, to increase from our existing two professional teams."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/26616760

bilston

If the Scots can make it work then great, but I'm not sure they can.

who_me

If the money is there, they'll find the players. I'm not sure about the fanbase though, if it's sufficient to keep another team going.

It probably would be a good thing to have though. As it stands the rugby base in Scotland is very limited, to just two cities with the rest of the nation ignored. As bad if not worse than Wales in that regard. We often don't realise how lucky we are in how the provinces already were setup.

Larbre34

The Pro13? I wouldnt be flying to any matches, thats for sure!

Leinster already had to play 33 games last season. Asking the top sides to play potentially 35 games is too much, unless the extensive B&I competition was reduced.

Micky Dolenz

The Italian teams will be out from next season?

.ak

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The Italian teams will be out from next season?

Nah they've re-committed I think.

connemara man

If it's possible that wouuld be great. It would be good for Scottish rugby and sure the French can handle 14 teams

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

An extra two games for the provinces wouldn't make any difference.

iDave

Wouldn't like an odd number of teams in the Pro12. It would mean one team would be left with no game every Pro12 weekend.

Neil3030

odin_ie wrote: »

Sponsor keen for new Pro12 rugby team in Aberdeen

"I'd love to see a rugby team there of the calibre of Edinburgh or Glasgow...."

Not exactly setting the bar very high, are they? :pac:

Seriously though, a 13th team would then create the need for a 14th, how about Sky start lobbing cash at London Irish??

Larbre34

London Irish are struggling as it is and probably only get a decent gate for the London derbies, it wouldnt make sense to join a league from which they are remote. Even the Italians have each other for a bit of a niggle.

razorblunt

If they wanted an additional team in there, they could look at a Spanish or Romanian crowd who are in the Amlin.

kooga

a few seasons ago london welsh thought about joining the pro 12.

they couldn't sustain the border reviers in the border area where rugby traditional played it will hardly last in aberdeen

Neil3030

Larbre34 wrote: »

London Irish are struggling as it is and probably only get a decent gate for the London derbies, it wouldnt make sense to join a league from which they are remote. Even the Italians have each other for a bit of a niggle.

My thinking would be that with the amount of Irish living in London, they'd get decent gates for at least the Leinster, Munster and Ulster matches, and probably a good gate for Connacht too. They'd also probably have a less competitive avenue to European competitions.

That would probably offset against the gates they'd receive against the remaining Pro 12 teams (especially the Italians), and the drop in TV money from leaving the Premiership.

BUT, if Sky can sweeten the deal for them, you never know. They had a strong hand in the development of the soccer Premiership, the PDL darts and the Heineken Cup; they know what they are doing in this area, and I'm sure they could make it both the league and LI's best interest...

odin_ie

On a slightly related topic, I wonder will the IRFU start looking to bolster links with London Irish considering the recent change in management over there, could be a good place to blood Irish players and develop a few more in the LI academy.

Losty Dublin

Non story.

As it stands, the SRU as parent body of Scottish rugby, are responsible for ensuring that Glasgow and Edinburgh are kept going. As it stands, they are struggling to keep their own two francises afloat financially and crowds are not brilliant. How they could justify backing a third franchise in an area without a large rugby tradition is idiocy. If Mr Gilbert is willing to pay for it out of his own pocked then perhaps but until then....

Losty Dublin

odin_ie wrote: »

On a slightly related topic, I wonder will the IRFU start looking to bolster links with London Irish considering the recent change in management over there, could be a good place to blood Irish players and develop a few more in the LI academy.

In the years since Irish rugby teams moved away from picking English based players and ensuring that talent stays at home, our teams have improved massively domestically and internationally. The less we encourage our players to emigrate the better IMO.

Beery Eyed

Neil3030 wrote: »

Seriously though, a 13th team would then create the need for a 14th, how about Sky start lobbing cash at London Irish??

This is all a bit far-fetched at the moment, but going down this imaginary road, if there was an extra team to be added to make up a 14 team league, I fully believe that we now produce enough quality players at this point in time to support another professional team.

The issue isn't the players though, it's that there's probably nowhere viable to play & sustain another team in Ireland. with the provinces so naturally established, & a relatively small population outside of the cities already involved, it would be very difficult to envisage an additional location. Perhaps a team based in the midlands? (Westmeath, Laois, Longford, Offaly) Playing out of Dubarry Park in Athlone? Probably around 300,000 in that area and Athlone is already a decent rugby hub with a 10,000 stadium.

I'm not talking about a team that would instantly be Heineken level of course, but perhaps good enough to be competitive in the league (if only against the Italians & Aberdeen;) ), and it might just give an added opportunity to Irish fringe players to prove a point that they're good enough for professional level.

When you consider in recent years that large numbers of young Irish players have moved to other leagues in order to get professional gametime (Niall Morris, Robin Copeland, Eamonn Sheridan, Chris Farrell, James Hart, Mark Flanagan, Brian Hayes, John Andress, Jamie Hagan, Ian Whitten, Sean Scanlon, Gareth Steenson, etc.), as well as the large group of players who are currently playing British & Irish Cup games regularly, but can't quite break through to the full league team. Within that group of players there would already be enough to field a competitive squad at league level.

We've never produced rugby players in Ireland, in terms of numbers or consistent quality, to the level that are coming through with regularity now. Despite their inconsistency, Connacht are now very competitive, which has been proven even more so by their Heineken wins in recent years. However many people still see them as a "development" side, when in truth they are a fully professional, competitive side in their own right. What they need now is more top-quality players, not the fringe players from other squads. Perhaps adding another side could serve this purpose?

Anyway, that's just my mind wandering off into the theoretical possibilities, since the topic of extra teams was brought up! Feel free to slate/lambaste as required

Neil3030

Beery Eyed wrote: »

This is all a bit far-fetched at the moment, but going down this imaginary road, if there was an extra team to be added to make up a 14 team league, I fully believe that we now produce enough quality players at this point in time to support another professional team.

The issue isn't the players though, it's that there's probably nowhere viable to play & sustain another team in Ireland. with the provinces so naturally established, & a relatively small population outside of the cities already involved, it would be very difficult to envisage an additional location. Perhaps a team based in the midlands? (Westmeath, Laois, Longford, Offaly) Playing out of Dubarry Park in Athlone? Probably around 300,000 in that area and Athlone is already a decent rugby hub with a 10,000 stadium.

I'm not talking about a team that would instantly be Heineken level of course, but perhaps good enough to be competitive in the league (if only against the Italians & Aberdeen;) ), and it might just give an added opportunity to Irish fringe players to prove a point that they're good enough for professional level.

When you consider in recent years that large numbers of young Irish players have moved to other leagues in order to get professional gametime (Niall Morris, Robin Copeland, Eamonn Sheridan, Chris Farrell, James Hart, Mark Flanagan, Brian Hayes, John Andress, Jamie Hagan, Ian Whitten, Sean Scanlon, Gareth Steenson, etc.), as well as the large group of players who are currently playing British & Irish Cup games regularly, but can't quite break through to the full league team. Within that group of players there would already be enough to field a competitive squad at league level.

We've never produced rugby players in Ireland, in terms of numbers or consistent quality, to the level that are coming through with regularity now. Despite their inconsistency, Connacht are now very competitive, which has been proven even more so by their Heineken wins in recent years. However many people still see them as a "development" side, when in truth they are a fully professional, competitive side in their own right. What they need now is more top-quality players, not the fringe players from other squads. Perhaps adding another side could serve this purpose?

Anyway, that's just my mind wandering off into the theoretical possibilities, since the topic of extra teams was brought up! Feel free to slate/lambaste as required

Well the irish for province is cúige for a reason! Though the 5th province was Meath if I remember correctly....

who_me

I wonder if an extra team (or teams) is good or bad for the league & the Irish teams? If the (mostly TV) revenue generated per-game exceeds the costs, then the more the merrier. But it's hard to think of any potential team that could bring in a big TV audience. A second team in Dublin? Cardiff? Italy has the population, but does it have the interest/cash? A defector from another league? ("We don't want to drop down into the 1st/2nd division, let's hop over to the Pro12-ish instead!")

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well the irish for province is cúige for a reason! Though the 5th province was Meath if I remember correctly....

Though I would say that Connacht would need to be qualifying consistently for the HEC before the idea is even considered. Though they are, as you say, a professional outfit, they are still a great deal behind the big three, principally in the quantity of f**ks about them given by the IRFU.

CatFromHue

Not sure how competitive Connacht are just yet, they've never finished in the top half of the table for example.

If you break the table down into 1-4 top, 5-8 middle, and 9-12 bottom then you could say they're a lower mid table team/upper bottom table team (9th, 8th, and 8th have been their last three finishing positions).

LeinsterDub

Even if the 4 provinces where consistently in the last 4 of the European Cup where would the money for a 5th team come from.

stephen_n

Connacht aren't even properly funded at the moment, the thoughts of another team from Ireland would be moot, till that situation was rectified.

Beery Eyed

Neil3030 wrote: »

Though I would say that Connacht would need to be qualifying consistently for the HEC before the idea is even considered.

Really? I don't see why that would be a requirement. With the new setup there will only be one Irish team guaranteed a HEC spot, while the others will have to finish in the top 6or7 to qualify. So I don't think we would be in a position to demand them to qualify each year, given that it will be extremely difficult for 4 Irish teams to get in.

LeinsterDub

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Really? I don't see why that would be a requirement. With the new setup there will only be one Irish team guaranteed a HEC spot, while the others will have to finish in the top 6or7 to qualify. So I don't think we would be in a position to demand them to qualify each year, given that it will be extremely difficult for 4 Irish teams to get in.

Fine we'll start off with them actually qualifying once instead of been defaulted in on Leinsters coattails

I am pie

Scottish rugby needs a rebrand, need strong teams to produce players and those teams really should have had stronger links to the existing established clubs.

I can't see anything other than decline for them now.

First Up

The traditional power base for Scottish rugby was the borders. That would still be a more logical - and far better supported - franchise than Aberdeen which has no rugby tradition worth speaking of. In fact I would take the franchise out of Edinburgh and base it in Hawick, Galashiels or Jedforest. The borders has a rugby ethos comparable to South Wales or Munster. Watching Edinburgh play in the cavernous empty Murrayfield is tragic. The SRU need their heads examined.

CatFromHue

Connacht beating Lanelli on the weekend won't mean they'll get into the RCC but it could be a big help for Edinburgh.

Having two teams in next years RCC must mean a bit of extra cash for them. Also Solomons was late starting with Edinburgh this season so who knows how he'll get on with them next season after a proper pre season.

Digifriendly

CatFromHue wrote: »

Connacht beating Lanelli on the weekend won't mean they'll get into the RCC but it could be a big help for Edinburgh.

Having two teams in next years RCC must mean a bit of extra cash for them. Also Solomons was late starting with Edinburgh this season so who knows how he'll get on with them next season after a proper pre season.

Alan Solomons was appointed in July 2013 but when he took up his post I'm not quite sure.

locum-motion

Back in the 90's, I lived in Aberdeen. There are many rugby clubs in the area, and also in Dundee, Inverness, and the smaller towns around the place such as Peterhead, Forfar, Montrose etc, but unfortunately they weren't really top division outfits. (Those were mostly in Glas & Edin, and in places like Galashiels in the Borders)

So there is a grass roots support in the area, and I think there's a natural franchise name for them that's just waiting to be taken - The Highlanders. If it manages to draw general support from the population North of the River Tay (ie from Dundee/Perth/Stirling northwards through Aberdeen and the Highlands to Inverness and beyond) then it might have a chance, but without that gerneral support it hasn't a chance.

Given that the Rievers failed in the Scottish rugby heartland, I'm not sure if the 'Highlanders' could cut it. I'd like to see an attempt, though.

Beery Eyed

locum-motion wrote: »

I'd like to see an attempt, though.

I'd agree. It's certainly worth assessing anyway, and maybe even worth the effort in the long run. Unfortunately the unions & many others involved in decision making for rugby in this general part of the world can often be far too conservative & bogged down with remnants from the amateur days. In that respect I'm very envious of the way the southern unions go about their business. They are always looking to advance the game. Creating new teams to spread the exposure of the sport into a new area is often a way of doing it.

They also don't always make decisions based purely on traditional "rugby strongholds". What are they anyway?? To be fair, rugby has been a minority sport for a long time, which is now in a significant period of growth. To ignore a growth opportunity on that basis alone would lead to no growth in the game whatsoever.

As for the argument of Aberdeen as opposed to the Borders. In an ideal world it wouldn't be a one or the other situation, but if they were to get the setup right in the north-east of Scotland they would potentially be targeting a much larger population. Aberdeen alone has over 200,000, and if it could pull in support from Dundee upwards it would be targeting around 500,000 people. Galashiels, on the other hand, where Borders were based, has a population of around 12,000. In total there's probably only around 100k people in the borders region, so it's a smaller group of potential supporters. If there was real passion for the team though, it could possibly be enough to sustain a professional team.

CatFromHue

Apart from the money do they have the players for another team?

Edinburgh have a good chunk of foreign players as it is.

First Up

Beery Eyed wrote: »

I'd agree. It's certainly worth assessing anyway, and maybe even worth the effort in the long run. Unfortunately the unions & many others involved in decision making for rugby in this general part of the world can often be far too conservative & bogged down with remnants from the amateur days. In that respect I'm very envious of the way the southern unions go about their business. They are always looking to advance the game. Creating new teams to spread the exposure of the sport into a new area is often a way of doing it.

They also don't always make decisions based purely on traditional "rugby strongholds". What are they anyway?? To be fair, rugby has been a minority sport for a long time, which is now in a significant period of growth. To ignore a growth opportunity on that basis alone would lead to no growth in the game whatsoever.

As for the argument of Aberdeen as opposed to the Borders. In an ideal world it wouldn't be a one or the other situation, but if they were to get the setup right in the north-east of Scotland they would potentially be targeting a much larger population. Aberdeen alone has over 200,000, and if it could pull in support from Dundee upwards it would be targeting around 500,000 people. Galashiels, on the other hand, where Borders were based, has a population of around 12,000. In total there's probably only around 100k people in the borders region, so it's a smaller group of potential supporters. If there was real passion for the team though, it could possibly be enough to sustain a professional team.

Dragging the rest of the league up to Aberdeen for matches while trying to drum up interest in a sport with shallow (at best) roots in the region. There has to be a better strategy for reviving the game in Scotland. The borders was always a very intimidating place to go - deep tradition (7's game invented in Melrose) and not that far from Edinburgh. Before the regional franchises, clubs like Hawick and Gala could draw pretty decent crowds. Even 5,000 committed and passionate fans in a small but atmospheric ground like Mansfield Park in Hawick or Netherdale in Galashiels wouldl make much more attractive viewing than the awful spectacles in Murrayfield, or trying to generate some hooplah with a team of imports in Aberdeen.

stephen_n

Without a serious sugar daddy, Scottish rugby could hardly afford to fund another franchise. People seem to forget the money involved and it's not like Scottish rugby is flush with cash, the way things are going, they'd be more likely to shed a franchise, than try grow another.

CatFromHue

First Up wrote: »

Dragging the rest of the league up to Aberdeen for matches while trying to drum up interest in a sport with shallow (at best) roots in the region. There has to be a better strategy for reviving the game in Scotland. The borders was always a very intimidating place to go - deep tradition (7's game invented in Melrose) and not that far from Edinburgh. Before the regional franchises, clubs like Hawick and Gala could draw pretty decent crowds. Even 5,000 committed and passionate fans in a small but atmospheric ground like Mansfield Park in Hawick or Netherdale in Galashiels wouldl make much more attractive viewing than the awful spectacles in Murrayfield, or trying to generate some hooplah with a team of imports in Aberdeen.

I don't know for exact myself but is Aberdeen a growing city due to the Oil and Gas industry up there?

First Up

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't know for exact myself but is Aberdeen a growing city due to the Oil and Gas industry up there?

Yes, a lot of it's growth and prosperity is due to those industries -it started in the early 1970's. I don't think it has much relevance to rugby. Scottish rugby was traditionally grounded in the old grammar schools and a lot of the clubs are Former Pupils oriented - some closed to others. The exception is the borders, where rugby is a working class game. Edinburgh and Glasgow have large professional classes that support the game. Aberdeen doesn't.

dregin

Any chance of Edinburgh moving out of Murrayfield for at least the Pro12 games?

First Up

dregin wrote: »

Any chance of Edinburgh moving out of Murrayfield for at least the Pro12 games?

I think the pitch has finally been re-done so they probably don't have a choice. It has been screaming out to be moved somewhere smaller but they seem to be stuck in some sort of deal. They previously used Meadowbank and while not ideal for rugby it was at least a more sensible size.

English Lurker

My impression is that Embra were stuck in Murrayfield to save costs for the SRU as it dealt with its debt mountain for renovating the place. That debt is down to GBP11.2m as of last June. Turnover up to GBP39.3m, profit of a mere 900,000 - but then they'd increased pro playing numbers at the cost of GBP1.5m. Don't know what their accounts will look like this year with only the two home 6N games. Can't see the SRU letting Embra move somewhere else anytime soon or them approving a new pro outfit - but not a million miles away.

As for Aberdeen vs Borders - even allowing for the history and passion for the game in the Borders, I think it'd be madness for the Scottish to put a third franchise anywhere other than Aberdeen. It'd be something of a grind to make it work, but if Scotland are to stay an elite rugby nation, then they need Aberdeen to show an interest and they need clubs that get 10k guys through the door every week to help balance the bills. Not saying it wouldn't be difficult in Aberdeen, but it would be a miracle in the Borders given the population density.

CatFromHue

First Up wrote: »

Yes, a lot of it's growth and prosperity is due to those industries -it started in the early 1970's. I don't think it has much relevance to rugby. Scottish rugby was traditionally grounded in the old grammar schools and a lot of the clubs are Former Pupils oriented - some closed to others. The exception is the borders, where rugby is a working class game. Edinburgh and Glasgow have large professional classes that support the game. Aberdeen doesn't.

I was actually think is there an expat community to tap into.

I was up there a few months ago and there was a good chunk of English, Irish, Kiwi's out. Dunno if that was just the night I was out but that could be a potential market.

pickarooney

They should have a second Edinburgh team and groundshare, build up some derby rivalry.

who_me

stephen_n wrote: »

Without a serious sugar daddy, Scottish rugby could hardly afford to fund another franchise. People seem to forget the money involved and it's not like Scottish rugby is flush with cash, the way things are going, they'd be more likely to shed a franchise, than try grow another.

True, but they're not going to get out of this trough just by cutting costs either. That ends up just being a spiral into oblivion - spend less on signings & marketing, fewer reasons for fans to attend. Less income at the gate. And even harder to attract big-money sponsors.

stephen_n

who_me wrote: »

True, but they're not going to get out of this trough just by cutting costs either. That ends up just being a spiral into oblivion - spend less on signings & marketing, fewer reasons for fans to attend. Less income at the gate. And even harder to attract big-money sponsors.

Guess that has to be balanced on how much they can afford to pay players, it might mean they have three teams who can all pay less, then all their best players head south, to get more money.

First Up

English Lurker wrote: »

My impression is that Embra were stuck in Murrayfield to save costs for the SRU as it dealt with its debt mountain for renovating the place. That debt is down to GBP11.2m as of last June. Turnover up to GBP39.3m, profit of a mere 900,000 - but then they'd increased pro playing numbers at the cost of GBP1.5m. Don't know what their accounts will look like this year with only the two home 6N games. Can't see the SRU letting Embra move somewhere else anytime soon or them approving a new pro outfit - but not a million miles away.

As for Aberdeen vs Borders - even allowing for the history and passion for the game in the Borders, I think it'd be madness for the Scottish to put a third franchise anywhere other than Aberdeen. It'd be something of a grind to make it work, but if Scotland are to stay an elite rugby nation, then they need Aberdeen to show an interest and they need clubs that get 10k guys through the door every week to help balance the bills. Not saying it wouldn't be difficult in Aberdeen, but it would be a miracle in the Borders given the population density.

I can't see a market for a third franchise. For me, best bet would be a team that somehow combined Edinburgh and the Borders. If it doesn't work in the heartland of Scottish rugby, I doubt it would work in a contrived situation, which is what Aberdeen would be.
Border folk obviously don't travel to support Edinburgh and if Edinburgh folk won't venture as far as Corstorphine, it's hard to see them going to Hawick.
But I still think that has a better chance than trying to create something in Aberdeen. Who would put their money into that?

Beery Eyed

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/26959943

Another small article today on the BBC site discussing a potential third Scottish team based in Aberdeen. It seems Martin Gilbert is keen to explore it further anyway, which is interesting. Initially I thought it might just have been a throw-away comment to gain some publicity, but either way it's interesting to see how it will develop.