What happens if People decide enough is enough and take to the streets?

UNP3

I often hear people say lets take to the streets and show this government that the people have the power etc etc. BUt lets be realistic. What happens after we do this? Do we boot out the government and allow the military take over like in Egypt or do we tear up the constitution and let some revolt leaders assume power. Do they dismantle the now corrupt gardai and implement martial law unti a new force is established.

Obviously this new power will have to rescind bank debt payments so that will ruin are ability to get loans off nations in the future leaving Ireland standing on its own restoring are soverignty no doubt. The instability will see investors running out of this country. Of course there would be debt forgiveness on all mortgages too which would ruin all the financial institutions leaving are currency in ruins which would cause a run on the banks meaning the cost of items goes up. The ATMS would have no money because the banks would not have access to capital. This is just my view but can someone enlighten me to an alternative other then taxes and pay cuts. I mean we all know how corrupt the government is but does anyone have a realistic alternative to the folks that we have in there at the moment?

I personally think in terms of power fianna fail are as basd as ever and sadly I do not like the agenda that goes with Sinn Fein at this time. I think the independents are a laughing stock and labor have shown how meek they are. While I am not the biggest fan of Fine Gael as of Late I cannot see who else can lead us. Can anyone enlighten me.

renegademaster

the problem is not really who's in the government, it's more to do with the fact the people refuse to hold them to account, by saying "oh i'm going to vote them out in april 2016 when next general elections come round again!!" you do know what kind of signal this sends to corrupt individuals????????????

carry on cos nobody gives a $hit and afterwards even though the people knew we were lying and the knew that we knew they knew, they did nothing and not we got full term pensions!

UNP3

renegademaster wrote: »

the problem is not really who's in the government, it's more to do with the fact the people refuse to hold them to account, by saying "oh i'm going to vote them out in april 2016 when next general elections come round again!!" you do know what kind of signal this sends to corrupt individuals????????????

carry on cos nobody gives a $hit and afterwards even though the people knew we were lying and the knew that we knew they knew, they did nothing and not we got full term pensions!

But if we hold them to account, who do we have to replace them? While we all have our personal choices for who is good or bad we can see the majority of our politicians are quite corrupt. In an election the same type of people get voted in so it seems to be a culture within the political worlds. How can we fix this?

renegademaster

UNP3 wrote: »

But if we hold them to account, who do we have to replace them? While we all have our personal choices for who is good or bad we can see the majority of our politicians are quite corrupt. In an election the same type of people get voted in so it seems to be a culture within the political worlds. How can we fix this?

people who'd want to do a better job, or else they're out on the a$$ imediately, eventually it would weed out the corrupt and selfserving, doing nothing nothing to chalenge corruption since removing cowens government and waiting til april 2016 cos enda says so doesn't cut it, not by a longshot

comongethappy

renegademaster wrote: »

people who'd want to do a better job, or else they're out on the a$$ imediately, eventually it would weed out the corrupt and selfserving, doing nothing nothing to chalenge corruption since removing cowens government and waiting til april 2016 cos enda says so doesn't cut it, not by a longshot

How do you measure "better"?

Permabear

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jmayo

I think it apt to quote Thomas Jefferson...

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all.

I would say Irish people are generally an apathetic bunch when it comes to our government and state.

Maybe we have just as a race picked up a few things, like apathy, lack of civic pride, not rocking the boat, the promotion of the chancer who screws the powers that be, as well as the inbuilt desire to owner property at all costs from our years of colonisalism and disenfranchisement.

Permabear

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Good loser

renegademaster wrote: »

the problem is not really who's in the government, it's more to do with the fact the people refuse to hold them to account, by saying "oh i'm going to vote them out in april 2016 when next general elections come round again!!" you do know what kind of signal this sends to corrupt individuals????????????

carry on cos nobody gives a $hit and afterwards even though the people knew we were lying and the knew that we knew they knew, they did nothing and not we got full term pensions!

Political life attracts people interested in power. Money is an aspect of power. Therefore people interested in one are almost always interested in the other; acquiring money when/if in politics prolongs the power into life after politics. Ever and always.

Going Forward

jmayo wrote: »

I think it apt to quote Thomas Jefferson...



I would say Irish people are generally an apathetic bunch when it comes to our government and state.

Maybe we have just as a race picked up a few things, like apathy, lack of civic pride, not rocking the boat, the promotion of the chancer who screws the powers that be, as well as the inbuilt desire to owner property at all costs from our years of colonisalism and disenfranchisement.

+1

Markcheese

If you get enough people out, and keep getting them out then more and more of the general public will protest ... Law and order and commercial life will suffer as protests spread and continue ..
Eventually(if a government does nothing) the radicals will force regime change ... A small group of radicals will take over claiming popular support ... And a different group of arseholes will now be in charge... Possibly to the detriment of the general population..

fr336

Absolute power corrupts absolutely

Boulevardier

I think that if the public mood were strong enough, it could lead to something like the Maidan protests in Kiev. These culminated in the mass-occupation of government buildings. Once that happens, the government must choose between repression and collapse.

Mind you, in Kiev there were already a number of very militant groups who were ready to stir up trouble. Im not sure thare are such groups in Dublin.

For this to happen here, the public mood would have to be one of deep anger and frustration. It may be out there, but if so it is not being channelled.

renegademaster

Markcheese wrote: »

If you get enough people out, and keep getting them out then more and more of the general public will protest ... Law and order and commercial life will suffer as protests spread and continue ..
Eventually(if a government does nothing) the radicals will force regime change ... A small group of radicals will take over claiming popular support ... And a different group of arseholes will now be in charge... Possibly to the detriment of the general population..

you are correct but only if the people who brought about change just go straight back to sheep, if people can remove fianna fail from government i don't see why we couldn't have forced a better deal from fine gael/labour.

if something like you mentioned above played out for real then people would be expected to challenge the radicals until nee electiosnw ere called. the Ukrainian peoples mistake was first to let the nutters take over, second was to leave them at it after they took over, look at where they are today because of lack of action.

we haven't even begun our struggle yet!!

PeadarCo

renegademaster wrote: »

if people can remove fianna fail from government i don't see why we couldn't have forced a better deal from fine gael/labour.

Because unlike keyboard warriors, Fine Gael/Labour/Fianna Fail/Sinn fein actually listen to people they take on board peoples concerns but also acknowledge the reality of the situation. Even Sinn Fein the most extreme of the major parties do this(See the Northern Ireland economy). They don't go around calling people sheep etc or sitting around doing nothing. They listen to people.

People will take to the streets when they feel the major political parties have failed them and stop listening to them. At this stage that hasn't happened and probably won't if the upward curve continues. That's democracy and the political system in action as unsavory as it is to a small number of people.

It is fairly amazing after a number of threads and countless posts none of the keyboard warriors here have moved beyond a Father Ted type protest.

Permabear

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renegademaster

Permabear wrote: »

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they share a belief alright, not to say that they're correct, unemployment is not going down, jobsbridge and the lieks are increasing, college is finished soon so that will see a rise in the figures again, the EU is slipping into an abyss again regarding growth, house prices going up again isn't a sign of real recovery ffs!!

jebus wept

raymon

Your protest is likely to be infiltrated and hijacked by Fianna Fail ( or Ogra) . I wouldnt to be seen on a Fianna Fail protest march.

It is also likely to be infiltrated and hijacked by Eirigi. Again I wouldnt want to be see on an Eirigi protest march.

It is also likely to be infiltrated by people like Jerry Beades ( an ex Fianna Fail developer and ex member of the FF ard comhairle)

The problem with the protest marches is that they are usually infiltrated by people with vested interests masquerading as bona fidae protesters.

Not for me - thanks

Permabear

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emo72

Permabear wrote: »

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thats the message that the government are trying to get out,that things are improving. i can honestly say that since the new year i have never seen the retail sector as bad. im talking the worse ive seen since ever. im shocked when figures are released showing improvements.

as for unemployment figures, they should also release jobsbridge and other such schemes also. the true figure may be closer to 500k?

remember a couple of weeks ago FG spent a week of dail time pushing the positives they had achieved? that was to try impress on us how good things are coming up to the locals. well things are dire. and the true state of things will be hidden for as long as possible. i never realised spin had gotten so big in ireland.

Permabear

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COYW

emo72 wrote: »

remember a couple of weeks ago FG spent a week of dail time pushing the positives they had achieved? that was to try impress on us how good things are coming up to the locals. well things are dire. and the true state of things will be hidden for as long as possible. i never realised spin had gotten so big in ireland.

Political parties in power tend to do this kind of thing. Pointing out all the things that have not gone so well, in the hope of getting votes in the upcoming election, wouldn't really make sense.

According to the books things are getting better, more people are working, house prices are on the up again in certain parts of the country, new car sales are up. The government are well within their right to quote this in their defence. It is the job of the opposition to point out the flaws in their claims. Welcome to politics.

joe swanson

You will not see mass protests in this country any time soon. This is because the situation has actually started to improve after the fianna fail mess. IM no fan of fg but most people recognise the mess they inherited.

secondly, protests in this country are hijacked by the usual suspects eg the loony left and "professional protesters" Most decent people don't want to associate with these people.

renegademaster

joe swanson wrote: »

You will not see mass protests in this country any time soon. This is because the situation has actually started to improve after the fianna fail mess. IM no fan of fg but most people recognise the mess they inherited.

secondly, protests in this country are hijacked by the usual suspects eg the loony left and "professional protesters" Most decent people don't want to associate with these people.

there's a very small minority that would fit into your description above, jebus save us if the country stays at home from protests because of a handful of people.

fcuk me!!

hatrickpatrick

Permabear wrote: »

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Those are all economy based protests. No one has started a movement yet which is specifically about political reform and clamping down on wrongdoing and low ethics among government members - so you can't automatically say it won't garner any support at all. Let's give it a try first before we pre-judge the outcome.

Good loser

emo72 wrote: »

thats the message that the government are trying to get out,that things are improving. i can honestly say that since the new year i have never seen the retail sector as bad. im talking the worse ive seen since ever. im shocked when figures are released showing improvements.

as for unemployment figures, they should also release jobsbridge and other such schemes also. the true figure may be closer to 500k?

remember a couple of weeks ago FG spent a week of dail time pushing the positives they had achieved? that was to try impress on us how good things are coming up to the locals. well things are dire. and the true state of things will be hidden for as long as possible. i never realised spin had gotten so big in ireland.

What then about the latest exchequer figures? Aren't they independent proof of an improving economy?

emo72

Good loser wrote: »

What then about the latest exchequer figures? Aren't they independent proof of an improving economy?

yeah. im still shocked though. i just cant believe it. some friends of mine lost their jobs this week as their shopped closed. talking to other guys in the retail trade they are hanging on by their fingertips, and many dont think they will last much longer. not disputing the figures. its just the opposite to what im observing.

da6xsi

Im very surprised no-one has mentioned this yet..

But then again a media black out was enforced on the story to make sure other countries didnt get any ideas

Anyways last year the country of iceland revolted after large banking fraud was revealed in the country

The people protested,bankers were jailed,all government members were forced to resign, a new government is to be voted in and constitution to be re-written to make sure national banks never do it again

Plenty of info on youtube,reputable web news sites

Amazingly no main-stream media coverage yet most people swear by the tripe served by rte as relevant news

Obviously RTE would never show this as news im sure pressure was put on them by the government not to report the story same as lot of countrees.

Link here

http://guardianlv.com/2013/12/icelanders-overthrow-government-and-rewrite-constitution-after-banking-fraud-no-word-from-us-media/

a quick google search shows up plenty of information anyways


In my opinion theirs nothing to stop a revolution it only takes people to stand together and say enough is enough. Id love to see something happen in ireland like this as our government is a joke and is nowhere near capable of managing this country correctly.

hatrickpatrick

da6xsi wrote: »

Im very surprised no-one has mentioned this yet..

But then again a media black out was enforced on the story to make sure other countries didnt get any ideas

Anyways last year the country of iceland revolted after large banking fraud was revealed in the country

The people protested,bankers were jailed,all government members were forced to resign, a new government is to be voted in and constitution to be re-written to make sure national banks never do it again

Plenty of info on youtube,reputable web news sites

Amazingly no main-stream media coverage yet most people swear by the tripe served by rte as relevant news

Obviously RTE would never show this as news im sure pressure was put on them by the government not to report the story same as lot of countrees.

Link here

http://guardianlv.com/2013/12/icelanders-overthrow-government-and-rewrite-constitution-after-banking-fraud-no-word-from-us-media/

a quick google search shows up plenty of information anyways


In my opinion theirs nothing to stop a revolution it only takes people to stand together and say enough is enough. Id love to see something happen in ireland like this as our government is a joke and is nowhere near capable of managing this country correctly.

Unfortunately in Ireland, the divide and rule tactics adopted by the establishment have been staggeringly successful. We spend so much time arguing amongst ourselves that they can literally get away with anything while they're doing it. Think of that scene in the Life of Brian where the two freedom movements are having a sword fight inside the roman palace, so the guards just have to stand and watch them kill each other and not actually get involved at all.

I'll be the feet to admit that there are plenty of people on my own pro-revolution side who don't help matters. We're conditioned as a country to adversarial politics, but it certainly does nothing to further a movement when people in it attack and belittle those who don't agree instead of using reasoned arguments to change their minds...

Permabear

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Chips Lovell

da6xsi wrote: »

Obviously RTE would never show this as news im sure pressure was put on them by the government not to report the story same as lot of countrees.

RTE did report on it extensively. As did the newspapers.

Good loser

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Unfortunately in Ireland, the divide and rule tactics adopted by the establishment have been staggeringly successful. We spend so much time arguing amongst ourselves that they can literally get away with anything while they're doing it. Think of that scene in the Life of Brian where the two freedom movements are having a sword fight inside the roman palace, so the guards just have to stand and watch them kill each other and not actually get involved at all.

I'll be the feet to admit that there are plenty of people on my own pro-revolution side who don't help matters. We're conditioned as a country to adversarial politics, but it certainly does nothing to further a movement when people in it attack and belittle those who don't agree instead of using reasoned arguments to change their minds...

So you're in favour of 'revolution' and 'reasoned argument'!!

Are guns to figure in your revolution? Or pikes?

hatrickpatrick

Good loser wrote: »

So you're in favour of 'revolution' and 'reasoned argument'!!

Why shouldn't I be? I'm in favour of revolution without resorting to attacking those who aren't in favour, especially attacking them with vitriol instead of actual debate - that's not how you win people over.
However, the anti-protest side is just as guilty of this if not worse. You're not going to convince us to leave the government alone by calling us names or generally being condescending

Are guns to figure in your revolution? Or pikes?

I don't see why they should? I think we're probably past the time in which a violent uprising is in any way necessary. I'm certainly open to debate on that but I certainly think it's an absolutely daft suggestion when revolution through peaceful protest and overhaul of the establishment hasn't even been tried yet...?

Jonny7

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

overhaul of the establishment hasn't even been tried yet...?

An overhaul of the establishment would be an election

The best that peaceful wide-scale protests could achieve is the step-down of the current government and an earlier election

Which party would you like to see take power in that scenario that you think would genuinely run the country better than the current government?

renegademaster

Jonny7 wrote: »

An overhaul of the establishment would be an election

The best that peaceful wide-scale protests could achieve is the step-down of the current government and an earlier election

Which party would you like to see take power in that scenario that you think would genuinely run the country better than the current government?

whichever party had the upmost respect for the country and the people living in it, a party that felt a real threat of not being allowed the same lengths of time previous corrupt governments were allowed to feather their own nests

when this happens we have a chance, if we don't put some fear into politicians then we're going to get people who thing the lack of action by the people means we fully support them and wish for more of the same

Jonny7

renegademaster wrote: »

whichever party had the upmost respect for the country and the people living in it, a party that felt a real threat of not being allowed the same lengths of time previous corrupt governments were allowed to feather their own nests

when this happens we have a chance, if we don't put some fear into politicians then we're going to get people who thing the lack of action by the people means we fully support them and wish for more of the same

So to conclude you believe there's no such party in Ireland at the moment?

Which means the emphasis is not on protest but on starting such a party

So the title of this thread is mute in that regard

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

An overhaul of the establishment would be an election

Not at all. That merely changes the people inside a bit of the establishment, not the structure and operation of the establishment itself.

The best that peaceful wide-scale protests could achieve is the step-down of the current government and an earlier election

Or they could force reform. Or they could force Shatter to resign. Why does it have to be "the whole government or nothing"?

Which party would you like to see take power in that scenario that you think would genuinely run the country better than the current government?

I don't think any of them would within the current governmental system to be honest - until that's reformed, changing the ruling party makes absolutely no difference. Reform of standing orders so as not to emphasize party whips, reform of the law regarding ethics while in public office, reform of laws to give the people more power over their government in between elections, etc etc etc are needed before parties will make any difference whatsoever.

Jonny7

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I don't think any of them would within the current governmental system to be honest - until that's reformed, changing the ruling party makes absolutely no difference. Reform of standing orders so as not to emphasize party whips, reform of the law regarding ethics while in public office, reform of laws to give the people more power over their government in between elections, etc etc etc are needed before parties will make any difference whatsoever.

Fair enough, which system in the world meets these standards do you think?

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

Fair enough, which system in the world meets these standards do you think?

I'm pretty sure there isn't one yet. Given how screwed up most of the world is, why the obsession with looking to copy someone else's model...?

Jonny7

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there isn't one yet. Given how screwed up most of the world is, why the obsession with looking to copy someone else's model...?

Surely then the focus should be on creating said system/party before protests take place..

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

Surely then the focus should be on creating said system/party before protests take place..

Baby steps IMO. Shatter needs to go and the government needs to have constant, unrelenting pressure piled on them until they finally break ranks and do what's right by the country rather than what's right by their mate. His continued presence in the DOJ makes an absolute mockery of the concept of justice.

Of course, there's no reason we can't do that while formulating the new system, which is in fact what I've been advocating...

raymon

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Baby steps IMO. Shatter needs to go and the government needs to have constant, unrelenting pressure piled on them until they finally break ranks and do what's right by the country rather than what's right by their mate. His continued presence in the DOJ makes an absolute mockery of the concept of justice.

Of course, there's no reason we can't do that while formulating the new system, which is in fact what I've been advocating...

So who would be your dream team cabinet?

Jonny7

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Of course, there's no reason we can't do that while formulating the new system, which is in fact what I've been advocating...

Surely if I press you on what this "new" system will entail - it will likely just be a fine-tuning, amendment of the current system - with just harsher penalties for and enquiries into law-breaking by politicians and officials..

Good loser

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why shouldn't I be? I'm in favour of revolution without resorting to attacking those who aren't in favour, especially attacking them with vitriol instead of actual debate - that's not how you win people over.
However, the anti-protest side is just as guilty of this if not worse. You're not going to convince us to leave the government alone by calling us names or generally being condescending



I don't see why they should? I think we're probably past the time in which a violent uprising is in any way necessary. I'm certainly open to debate on that but I certainly think it's an absolutely daft suggestion when revolution through peaceful protest and overhaul of the establishment hasn't even been tried yet...?

Do you know what you're talking about? Your definition of 'revolution' bears no resemblence to the normal meaning of that word.

With the likes of you revolutioning I'd prefer my chances with the Govt any day.

emo72

Good loser wrote: »

With the likes of you

lovely phrasing.

im with hatrickpatrick. much better reasoned argument, and nicer to boot.

Good loser

emo72 wrote: »

lovely phrasing.

im with hatrickpatrick. much better reasoned argument, and nicer to boot.

So will there be guns in your revolution?

old hippy

I notice that the idea of revolution at home and in the UK (where I live) is routinely dismissed and laughed at but encouraged further afield. Is it because, compared to other places we are relatively (and I stress relatively) a lot better off?

I'm not saying deconstructing the current establishment is necessarily a bad thing, given the state of things but it's unlikely to happen, isn't it?

Jonny7

old hippy wrote: »

I notice that the idea of revolution at home and in the UK (where I live) is routinely dismissed and laughed at but encouraged further afield. Is it because, compared to other places we are relatively (and I stress relatively) a lot better off?

I'm not saying deconstructing the current establishment is necessarily a bad thing, given the state of things but it's unlikely to happen, isn't it?

We don't actually need a revolution, we enjoy a standard of living and a level of; rights, equality, stability, education, health, average salaries, infrastructure, opportunities, etc that a large majority of people in the world can only dream of

But people will never be satisfied - the current system can always be improved - and there'll always be corrupt politicians/officials/scandals to focus on/complain about

Permabear

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old hippy

Permabear wrote: »

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Ah, now this is the other extreme. Attempting to dismiss 1916, 1798 and such forth. Attempting to dismiss all the political movements for reform and such in both countries, followed by the hoary old chestnut on how Che Ernesto Guevara was a bad 'un and sure isn't political dissent the domain of t-shirted wearing youths who just need to grow up.

I'd rather be eternally youthful than a miserablist cynic like those who dismiss social and political change.

Permabear

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