boiler stove pitching

maxpower07

hi guys i recently installed a firebird inset boiler stove it works great a bit too good maybe after about 2 hours of a decent fire ive noticed its pitching into the f and e tank .it heats everything great ,the rads and cylinder be roasting ive been thinking is it possible that because its rated for up to 12 rads while i have only 7 single and insulated cylinder and aswell im in a small 2 bed 2 story house thats its heated everything and thats why it pitching i would appreciate yer advise

shane 007

When cold, where is the level of water in the feed & expansion tank (small tank) in the attic?
Also where is the location of the circulation pump on the system, as in what pipe & where?

maxpower07

well shane thanks for you reply its about 5 and half inch deep and the pump is on the return of the ch pipe flowing into stove I used the four outlets of the stove 2 for ch and 2 for cylinder

shane 007

Is the vent straight up from the flow of the stove & is the feed & expansion pipe to the return of the cylinder.
Then nothing on the pump circuit where the pump is?

maxpower07

ya vent comes off flow and the feed and expansion on the return at the cylinder no there nothing after the pump before stove ,,I ve just in the past half hour changed the pump setting to 2 it was set to auto by electrician (tbh I dunno what auto means when it comes to operation of the pump when theres a pipe stat fitted ) and its stopped pitching so far

shane 007

Could be the issue but sort of shouldn't be, unless:
From the highest point in the system (cylinder coil flow connection or a high rad) to the level of water in the f & e tank, would that be more than 1.33m or more than 2.0m?
How old is the heating system?
If you were to bleed the rads what colour is the water?
If clear from the bleed screw, and you cracked open rad valve joint into the rad at the bottom, what colour would the water be there?

maxpower07

it would be around 3m from cylinder coil flow connection to water level in f and e tank .,,heating system is young enough about 12 years old , afaik its mostly qualplex with copper at key points it was fitted back then to take oil heating and I should also mention its setup now as a dual fuel linkup with dual coil cylinder with nrv on secondary circuit on stove side ....I have drained down the heating a couple of times lately and water is blackish alright but not thick black ....also shane I know stoves cant really be temperature controlled but if rads and cylinder are roasting hot is there anything I can do stop it from reaching these temperatures would it advisable to change a few rads to doubles or something

shane 007

Yes very true. Installing doubles will definitely help. If you have sludge, this will also limit the performance of the rads as if a 1,000 single outputs approx 1kw, a sludged rad would have a greatly reduced output.

You could also try lighting smaller fires & see if that helps.

By the sounds of it, the system parameters seem to be fine. I'm not a lover of any qualpex on any part of a solid fuel systems, but it is permissible on secondary circuits.

maxpower07

ya I think swap in a few doubles see if it helps ,. i know what your saying alright about the sludge but i think mine are ok on that end ...in fairness the fires im lighting aren't the biggest so far from about 4pm 1 ordinary sized bucket of coal and about 6 blocks a hell of a lot less compared to when it was an open fire which is great ....

i done what i could in copper nearly all 1 inch and the qualpex starts about 2 m away from stove on secondary circuit so hopefully should be ok ....

update on pitching aswell shane.... since i switched the speed to 2 if was working fine but then herself had a bath thus cooling down rads and waterso the pump stopped then after a short while it kicked in again
but pitchs straight away for a few minutes on then starts purring away after that ,would ya think its alright as it is

shane 007

maxpower07 wrote: »

update on pitching aswell shane.... since i switched the speed to 2 if was working fine but then herself had a bath thus cooling down rads and waterso the pump stopped then after a short while it kicked in again
but pitchs straight away for a few minutes on then starts purring away after that ,would ya think its alright as it is

No, something is amiss.
You have described a system with decent parameters, which should never pitch.
Is any of the primary circuit pipes in the attic & dropping down into hot press?

maxpower07

no all rise from ground level up bar about the 3 feet to come out of the side of fireplace should i lower the pipe stat temp from 55........it seems like it finds it easier to pitch first than to circulate the rads maybe a lower temp to start off with might prevent it

shane 007

No. 55C is fine. Is stat on the flow?
Vent is definitely off the flow of the cylinder coil?

esox28

Well lads, just a quick suggestion....try closing the feed valve, if the pitching stops then my suggestion would be to connect the feed into the vent pipe at the tank which eliminates tank circulation but my not help your pitching, but just by closing the valve temporarly will give you an indication.

maxpower07

stat is on flow alright ,,the top connection on the stove is going to the hotpress where it tees off to the top connection of cylinder on the same tee the top connection goes up to attic in 3/4 inch copper slants the roofline and drops into f and e tank

shane 007

Aye, combined f & vents can work but they are far from ideal. There also should never be a valve on the f & e but if there is, you could try this but do not forget to open back up & remove the head of the valve. Temporary things generally become permanent until something reminds you shouldn't have left it temporarily.

The issue does not make sense. F & vent on cylinder side of the stove & pump on the rad circuit. This should never have a pitching issue as the cylinder side is a perfect gravity circuit & would not be affected whatsoever by the pumped circuit. Even if opposite ends for flows & returns were not taken, it should not pitch.
To me there is another inherent issue going on & combining the feed & vent may only mask the issue.

shane 007

Perhaps some photos of the f & e tank & of the hot press pipework would help.

maxpower07

i ll have to give a good look at it 2moro and make sure the pipework is as it should be ,light a mild fire i suppose just keep an eye on it follow the hot water an see if i can learn anything from it and also try closing the valve temporarly see if it helps ..

the bed is calling ill sign off ,,thanks for your replys and time shane much appreciated ill update when i do my investigation cheers ..ya i can add some pics aswell 2moro

maxpower07

well lads i took a few photos of hot press and attic pipework ,if ye could have a look and point out to me if there is something i could to do to sort the pitching

maxpower07

pics

maxpower07

more pic

shane 007

How many vents have you?
I think I can count 3! Pics are very out of focus.

shane 007

I also don't like that valve on the feed.
What's the colour of the water in the tank?

shane 007

Is that qualpex coming as the vent from the cylinder coil?

maxpower07

ya 3 vents i dunno what the third one is about but it emptys into water storage tank ,the valve is only temp while im breaking the stove in ,that's the plan anyway..........

The water is a rusty brown color as for the qualpex as the vent that's the oil side of the cylinder it was like that before i changed the cylinder so i just left it as it was ,but i did use 1/2inch qualpex as the feed on stove side

shane 007

I reckon the pitching is something to do with all the vents. Looks like a bit of a mess.
You are probably better if you get somebody into have a look. Difficult to see remotely.

maxpower07

would you say the vent pipe with the insulation is acceptable

shane 007

It depends on where it's coming from. Very hard to see without being there looking at it.

maxpower07

i know what your saying...
i did have a few plumbers come out to fit the stove pipe work but they just wanted to tee into orginal single coil system so i couldn't have them back , i am nearly sure i took every precaution possible bar using qualpex at the feed instead of copper if stoves are so heat efficient is there any reason why the heat cant travel up the pipe and heat the f and e tank there is literally not one drop of cold water in the system and it then boiler over

skippy5

You seem to have two feeds coming from your expansion tank, the second one is more than likely feed your oil system, this could cause circulation in your tank meaning its acting like a rad and making the tank the highest point on your system. Also you may not need second vent (but get that checked out first) can happen that pump can suck it out of the tank and push it back up the oil system vent.

Fries-With-That

maxpower07 wrote: »

ya vent comes off flow and the feed and expansion on the return at the cylinder no there nothing after the pump before stove ,,I ve just in the past half hour changed the pump setting to 2 it was set to auto by electrician (tbh I dunno what auto means when it comes to operation of the pump when theres a pipe stat fitted ) and its stopped pitching so far

This has me confused (I'm not a plumber).

You say, the Vent comes off the flow and the feed and expansion are coming off the return.

I thought the vent (cylinder expansion)came from the top of the cylinder and the boiler Vent (expansion) came from the flow on the boiler pipe.

The feed would be on the return before the pump.

As I said, I'm not a plumber, don't be too harsh if this is incorrect.

shane 007

Fries-With-That wrote: »

This has me confused (I'm not a plumber).

You say, the Vent comes off the flow and the feed and expansion are coming off the return.

I thought the vent (cylinder expansion)came from the top of the cylinder and the boiler Vent (expansion) came from the flow on the boiler pipe.

The feed would be on the return before the pump.

As I said, I'm not a plumber, don't be too harsh if this is incorrect.

Me thinks you should stick to MacD's :-)!
Vent is off flow as this is the open safety vent pipe on not for expansion.
Feed feeds water into the system & is used for expansion of the system, hence called the feed & expansion pipe.

OP, do you have a solid fuel system or both oil & solid fuel?

Fries-With-That

shane 007 wrote: »

Me thinks you should stick to MacD's :-)!
Vent is off flow as this is the open safety vent pipe on not for expansion.
Feed feeds water into the system & is used for expansion of the system, hence called the feed & expansion pipe.

OP, do you have a solid fuel system or both oil & solid fuel?

Thanks for that, I thought he was indicating that he had an expansion (pipe open to header tank) on the flow and a feed pipe and another expansion (pipe open to header tank) pipe on the return, causing the water to recirculate back to the header tank in the attic when the pump was turned on.

So the pipe from the header tank to top up the system is called the feed and expansion pipe. The pipe that is looped over the header tank is the vent.

Much appreciated, I learn a lot from boardsies.

shane 007

Fries-With-That wrote: »

Thanks for that, I thought he was indicating that he had an expansion (pipe open to header tank) on the flow and a feed pipe and another expansion (pipe open to header tank) pipe on the return, causing the water to recirculate back to the header tank in the attic when the pump was turned on.

So the pipe from the header tank to top up the system is called the feed and expansion pipe. The pipe that is looped over the header tank is the vent.

Much appreciated, I learn a lot from boardsies.

Many people confuse the vent & the expansion. The hockey stick shaped pipe over the feed & expansion tank is the vent & not the expansion. Many people including plumbers miscall this pipe the expansion pipe. It is the open safety VENT pipe & is there for safety & venting only.
The smaller pipe is for expansion & feeding, hence called the feed & expansion pipe.