NCT passed but car not roadworthy ?

aquarius10

My 20 yr old son bought a 1998 car for €1000 recently through done deal and paid cash. it had just passed the NCT And looked ok. You'd think it would be a Safe bet ?

He has since put it up on a lift and checked by a mechanic who cannot believe it recently passed an NCT due to the amount of rust & corrosion on the chassis underneath. It will need a lot of work done to pass the next NCT.

The person who sold the car works in the local NCT centre. Alarm bells ringing in my head !

Before we phone the seller, have we any comeback ? Is there an ombudsman or what should we do ... I honestly think he has pulled a fast one, advice please

handlemaster

aquarius10 wrote: »

My 20 yr old son bought a 1998 car for €1000 recently through done deal and paid cash. it had just passed the NCT And looked ok. You'd think it would be a Safe bet ?

He has since put it up on a lift and checked by a mechanic who cannoti believe it recently passed an NCT due to the amount of rust & corrosion on the chassis underneath. It will need a lot of work done to pass the next NCT.

The person who sold the car works in the local NCT centre. Alarm bells ringing in my head !

Before we phone the seller, have we any comeback ? Is there an ombudsman or what should we do ... I honestly think he has pulled a fast one, advice please

Did you Google for similar stories ?? I think you will find something. If I were you I'd go with your mechanics report to the nct centre. Then get your money backfrom the seller

coylemj

handlemaster wrote: »

Did you Google for similar stories ?? I think you will find something. If I were you I'd go with your mechanics report to the nct centre. Then get your money backfrom the seller

So you get the guy sacked, then you expect him to give the OP his money back?

Better to talk to the seller, threaten to go to the NCT centre and report it if he doesn't refund the money, that might be a better strategy.

aquarius10

Yes private sale but you'd think a recent NCT would ensure its roadworthy ? Isn't that why NCT exists ?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

coylemj wrote: »

So you get the guy sacked, then you expect him to give the OP his money back?

Better to talk to the seller, threaten to go to the NCT centre and report it if he doesn't refund the money, that might be a better strategy.

He deserves the sack, printing off a cert for his car and it in sh*te.

But yeah, I'd threaten to cause a fuss at his place of work first, which will hopefully make him refund you.

freshpopcorn

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

He deserves the sack, printing off a cert for his car and it in sh*te.

But yeah, I'd threaten to cause a fuss at his place of work first, which will hopefully make him refund you.

Are you sure the mechanic is telling the truth?

mickdw

Fiestas of that age tend to be rotten. Still it may just have been acceptable. You seem to think it should be guaranteed to be good enough to pass another test. That is a mistake. Rust should have been first issue for inspection when buying one of those.

ironclaw

handlemaster wrote: »

Did you Google for similar stories ?? I think you will find something. If I were you I'd go with your mechanics report to the nct centre. Then get your money backfrom the seller

Private sale = No comeback.

I appreciate the car sold was unroadworthy but the onus is on you to prove that and its going to be costly i.e. Solicitors, Engineering Reports (From a chartered Engineer, not a mechanic) and Court. If it was me, I'd stop spending money and don't go threatening people. The issue is between you and the seller, you have no right to turn up to his place of work to cause a fuss. Calmly present the evidence to the seller in addition to a subtle 'Well, your an NCT tester etc'. If they offer a refund (Which I doubt they will) I'd take it. If not, its a €1000 lesson. A mechanic inspection before the sale would have been €100 or so. You can't trust whats written in a service book or on the windscreen. Is it even a genuine NCT disk?

micraX

Paint it, be grand

There could be a big scam here.
What if a worker in an NCT centre bought hopeless cars or even failed cars and then gets them a pass in his centre?
This is a serious crime and worse could get people killed. A worker at an NCT centre should not be allowed to use their centre to test cars, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they were forbidden to do this.
If I was you I would chat to the Gardai about this. Peoples lives are more important.

Sobanek

With the amount of leaks my car had (fixed now) and the state of the rear brake discs and pads, my mechanic said it wouldn't surely pass the NCT three weeks ago.
It's not not roadworthy but it definitely wouldn't pass.

It's not that hard to get an NCT on a car, if you know what I mean.

Stavros Murphy

Sobanek wrote: »

With the amount of leaks my car had (fixed now) and the state of the rear brake discs and pads, my mechanic said it wouldn't surely pass the NCT three weeks ago.
It's not not roadworthy but it definitely wouldn't pass.

It's not that hard to get an NCT on a car, if you know what I mean.

I'm lead to believe that an NCT is €150 for a guaranteed pass. I had thought this sort of guff was over and done with, but no, it seems it has just evolved a bit. Ah well.

DaveJac

very easy for him to pass it with something like rust just ignore it, it can pass everything perfect just be rotten, id give the seller a ring if no joy there ring get in touch with the RSA and NCT. Is the rust very bad as in poke your fingers through the floor? or is it all surface rust?

rebel.ranter

ironclaw wrote: »

Private sale = No comeback.

This is not true, why do people continually quote this? Previously there has been case law quoted that directly contradicts this. Financially it may not make sense to go after the seller about a €1k car but the seller in general does have some liability when selling a car.

From citizens information website:

The seller is required to give you accurate and truthful information in answer to any questions that you ask. However, a private seller does not have to provide information that is not requested. If you have a grievance after buying a car you should complain to the seller first. If you are not satisfied with the response you may be able to take legal action against the seller.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html

You can take legal action against a private seller of a car albeit in limited circumstances. I think in this particular case the seller cannot plead ignorance as to the condition of the car given his proffession.

djimi

aquarius10 wrote: »

Yes private sale but you'd think a recent NCT would ensure its roadworthy ? Isn't that why NCT exists ?

No, NCT is not a guarantee of roadworthiness at any point apart from maybe as it is rolling out the door of the test center. Even with an NCT you should still check the car fully before you buy. Granted, this issue should not have passed the NCT, but likewise had the car been checked properly before purchase this issue would most likely have been spotted.

Stella Virgo

aquarius10 wrote: »

My 20 yr old son bought a 1998 car for €1000 recently through done deal and paid cash. it had just passed the NCT And looked ok. You'd think it would be a Safe bet ?

He has since put it up on a lift and checked by a mechanic who cannot believe it recently passed an NCT due to the amount of rust & corrosion on the chassis underneath. It will need a lot of work done to pass the next NCT.

The person who sold the car works in the local NCT centre. Alarm bells ringing in my head !

Before we phone the seller, have we any comeback ? Is there an ombudsman or what should we do ... I honestly think he has pulled a fast one, advice please

the likes of of you get up everyone's hole with your stupidity. you go out and buy a pile, for a grand cash.believe everything that your told like a gullible fool. then AFTER :pac: getting the car, put it up on the rack and find loads of problems, how many ****ing times do the likes of you need to be told to inspect the car BEFORE you buy it. its everybody's fault except your own.....:rolleyes::pac::pac:

beetlebailey

Stella Virgo wrote: »

the likes of of you get up everyone's hole with your stupidity. you go out and buy a pile, for a grand cash.believe everything that your told like a gullible fool. then AFTER :pac: getting the car, put it up on the rack and find loads of problems, how many ****ing times do the likes of you need to be told to inspect the car BEFORE you buy it. its everybody's fault except your own.....:rolleyes::pac::pac:

Nice helpful attitude Stella,very helpful to OP:rolleyes:

h3000

Stella Virgo wrote: »

the likes of of you get up everyone's hole with your stupidity. you go out and buy a pile, for a grand cash.believe everything that your told like a gullible fool. then AFTER :pac: getting the car, put it up on the rack and find loads of problems, how many ****ing times do the likes of you need to be told to inspect the car BEFORE you buy it. its everybody's fault except your own.....:rolleyes::pac::pac:

You sound like such a nice chap :rolleyes:

I'm not too interested in getting a ban so I'll have to leave it at that :mad:

Kenny Logins

I think this thread should be moved to AH.

ironclaw

rebel.ranter wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html

You can take legal action against a private seller of a car albeit in limited circumstances. I think in this particular case the seller cannot plead ignorance as to the condition of the car given his proffession.

Sorry, my statement was sweeping with 'Private Sale = No Comeback' it probably should have read 'Private Sale = Expensive Comeback' unlike going after a business your going after an individual. And personal in this day and age, I wouldn't go knocking on too many doors for €1000. Just not worth it. If he sold a dodgy car do you honestly think he's going to want to hand back €1000 too easy?

And whilst Stella Virgo didn't put it the most eloquently, his overall point is very true. Ignorance ins't an excuse in this day and age. Even on YouTube, there are plenty of series about how to buy a car (There are a few videos from myself even), how to inspect and its generally accept unilaterally (Unless your buying from a main dealer or similar enterprise) that you have the car checked out by professional. I'm sure many people here would consider themselves very knowledgable about cars but I'd be hesitant to inspecting a car for a friend to buy. I'd still insist they get it put on a ramp with a proper mechanic no matter how sure I was. I don't understand how this concept it new to people?

I know €1000 could mean the world to someone, but there is no excuse when a €100 cash in hand check at your local mechanic would have saved you the €900. Which you'll most likely have to spend double trying to get back off the seller through the legal system. A solicitor alone could be €250+

People just need to use common sense in these situations. A car that costs €1000 should have alarm bells ringing like a fire station on Halloween.

slimjimmc

ironclaw wrote: »

Private sale = No comeback.

Nobody neither private seller or dealer can sell a dangerously defective vehicle to the public without making them aware of the dangers.
The buyer has a lot of comeback under the Sale of Good and Supply of Services Act. And it's not just limited to the buyer, anyone using the car can have a claim against the seller if anything happens as a result of the car's condition.

It's up to the seller to prove the car was safe at the time of sale.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0013.html#sec13

(2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.
(3) Subsection (2) of this section shall not apply where—
(a) it is agreed between the seller and the buyer that the vehicle is not intended for use in the condition in which it is to be delivered to the buyer under the contract, and
(b) a document consisting of a statement to that effect is signed by or on behalf of the seller and the buyer and given to the buyer prior to or at the time of such delivery, and
(c) it is shown that the agreement referred to in paragraph (a) is fair and reasonable.
:
(5) Where an action is brought for breach of the implied condition referred to in subsection (2) by reason of a specific defect in a motor vehicle and a certificate complying with the requirements of this section is not proved to have been given, it shall be presumed unless the contrary is proved that the proven defect existed at the time of delivery.
:
(7) A person using a motor vehicle with the consent of the buyer of the vehicle who suffers loss as the result of a breach of the condition implied by subsection (2) in the contract of sale may maintain an action for damages against the seller in respect of the breach as if he were the buyer.

[Edit]
just saw IronsClaw's post above after finished typing mine. I agree, even with a legitimate claim against the seller it's could be tough getting the money back even if you got a court judgement.

The issue of a fake NCT (if that is the case) or wrongly issued NCT is a serious matter.
[/Edit]

h3000

ironclaw wrote: »

Sorry, my statement was sweeping with 'Private Sale = No Comeback' it probably should have read 'Private Sale = Expensive Comeback' unlike going after a business your going after an individual. And personal in this day and age, I wouldn't go knocking on too many doors for €1000. Just not worth it. If he sold a dodgy car do you honestly think he's going to want to hand back €1000 too easy?

And whilst Stella Virgo didn't put it the most eloquently, his overall point is very true. Ignorance ins't an excuse in this day and age. Even on YouTube, there are plenty of series about how to buy a car (There are a few videos from myself even), how to inspect and its generally accept unilaterally (Unless your buying from a main dealer or similar enterprise) that you have the car checked out by professional. I'm sure many people here would consider themselves very knowledgable about cars but I'd be hesitant to inspecting a car for a friend to buy. I'd still insist they get it put on a ramp with a proper mechanic no matter how sure I was. I don't understand how this concept it new to people?

I know €1000 could mean the world to someone, but there is no excuse when a €100 cash in hand check at your local mechanic would have saved you the €900. Which you'll most likely have to spend double trying to get back off the seller through the legal system. A solicitor alone could be €250+

People just need to use common sense in these situations. A car that costs €1000 should have alarm bells ringing like a fire station on Halloween.

In fairness though the OP bought the car in good faith that it had just passed the NCT. The real problem is how could it have possibly passed the NCT if it had that much corrosion? Yes you should be very careful when your buying a car but a lot of people use the NCT as a gauge on how good the car is and in fairness you can understand why they would. Particularly with a €1k car.

Slutmonkey57b

beetlebailey wrote: »

Nice helpful attitude Stella,very helpful to OP:rolleyes:

It's an entirely valid point though. Phrased improperly, perhaps.

Red Kev

Whatever about the OP failing to check the car properly, or Stella's opinion here, the fact is that some NCT employee is passing cars as being perfectly roadworthy when they are in fact rusted junk, and this with the sole ambition of making a few bob for themselves.

That person deserves to lose their job because of this*. OP: go to the Guards, media or whatever but I don't see why this should be allowed to continue.

*Before somebody starts giving me grief about me not knowing the NCT tester and he may have kids, mortgage etc., the NCT tester should have though about that before he started fcuk acting around with NCT's. The guy is in a position of trust and responsibility and they should know that.

goz83

ironclaw wrote: »

People just need to use common sense in these situations. A car that costs €1000 should have alarm bells ringing like a fire station on Halloween.

Nonsense. There are plenty of older cars in great condition for €1000 and less. The car in question is a 98. Most average cars of that vintage would be around 1k. I myself bought a 2005 mondeo this week with 13 months nct for €1300.

ironclaw

h3000 wrote: »

In fairness though the OP bought the car in good faith that it had just passed the NCT. The real problem is how could it have possibly passed the NCT if it had that much corrosion? Yes you should be very careful when your buying a car but a lot of people use the NCT as a gauge on how good the car is and in fairness you can understand why they would. Particularly with a €1k car.

NCT proves that on the ramp, on that day, the car was roadworthy. The second it leaves the centre, the very moment after, its a black box again. It would be incorrect to suggest to people that an NCT is a certificate of a good car. It should be present on the windscreen, it should be reviewed by the buyer but thats it. Its only a tick in a box, not a certificate of 'Yeah, all is grand. Part with your cash'

I can understand why the general populous would view it this way, but common sense prevails in these instances. We've all cheated on a test at some point in our lives, the NCT is a test, so human nature and intuition should be to check the results for themselves i.e. Independent mechanic.

But I agree with you, there is a lot unanswered here besides!

h3000

ironclaw wrote: »

NCT proves that on the ramp, on that day, the car was roadworthy. The second it leaves the centre, the very moment after, its a black box again. It would be incorrect to suggest to people that an NCT is a certificate of a good car. It should be present on the windscreen, it should be reviewed by the buyer but thats it. Its only a tick in a box, not a certificate of 'Yeah, all is grand. Part with your cash'

I can understand why the general populous would view it this way, but common sense prevails in these instances. We've all cheated on a test at some point in our lives, the NCT is a test, so human nature and intuition should be to check the results for themselves i.e. Independent mechanic.

But I agree with you, there is a lot unanswered here besides!

I agree with what you are saying about an NCT in general. But in this particular case something is very wrong. Severe corrosion does not happen overnight.

goz83

ironclaw wrote: »

NCT proves that on the ramp, on that day, the car was roadworthy!

In fairness, it proves nothing. It suggests only that the tester didn't spot a fail. The chassis number on one of my cars is off by one digit and only been spotted once in 3 ncts. There is also the fact that there is still corruption within the ncts. And it would appear likely that the car the op speaks about should not have an nct cert and perhaps it only does because of the seller working for ncts

kirving

Forget going back to the seller, you're wasting your time and not getting to the root of the problem. Get a engineers report, and go straight back to NCTS, and the Gardai. He should lose his job, and probably be convicted if possible. RTE did similar when Prime Time Investigates exposed this a few years ago. Technically the test is only valid on the day, in case the driver damages the car the next day themselves, but chassis corrosion like you describe doesn't happen in a day or a week.

It might be €1000 this time, but what happens when it's an overlooked airbag light or dangerously corroded brake line?

christy02

aquarius10 wrote: »

My 20 yr old son bought a 1998 car for €1000 recently through done deal and paid cash. it had just passed the NCT And looked ok. You'd think it would be a Safe bet ?

He has since put it up on a lift and checked by a mechanic who cannot believe it recently passed an NCT due to the amount of rust & corrosion on the chassis underneath. It will need a lot of work done to pass the next NCT.

The person who sold the car works in the local NCT centre. Alarm bells ringing in my head !

Before we phone the seller, have we any comeback ? Is there an ombudsman or what should we do ... I honestly think he has pulled a fast one, advice please

Also remember op that the seller may not be aware of the rust underneath any more than you were.
Just because you are selling a car does not mean that you are aware of all its faults.

How do you know he works at the nct test centre?

christy02

goz83 wrote: »

Nonsense. There are plenty of older cars in great condition for €1000 and less. The car in question is a 98. Most average cars of that vintage would be around 1k. I myself bought a 2005 mondeo this week with 13 months nct for €1300.

That's rubbish. I myself am selling a car for little over 1k that is in good shape for miles and year.
It is my family car and am just after a change.

I always sell and buy my cars privately and "touches wood" have never bought a dud.

The one dud I did buy was from a dealer and I lowered my gaurd a bit thinking this guy must be selling good cars.

Plenty of bargains out there, however been realistic the amount of 98 fiestas without rust is fairly small. A bit of research before buying would have told you that.

goz83

christy02 wrote: »

That's rubbish. I myself am selling a car for little over 1k that is in good shape for miles and year.
It is my family car and am just after a change.

I always sell and buy my cars privately and "touches wood" have never bought a dud.

The one dud I did buy was from a dealer and I lowered my gaurd a bit thinking this guy must be selling good cars.

Plenty of bargains out there, however been realistic the amount of 98 fiestas without rust is fairly small. A bit of research before buying would have told you that.

I'm scratching my head wondering what you're on about. Your post in essence only serves to validate my point.

With regards to the post you're quoting; i was responding to another poster who did not mention the fiesta specifically, but rather the price of a car (€1000) causing alarm bells to ring.

And i am not the op. I didn't buy the fiesta. A bit of research would have told you that.

slimjimmc

christy02 wrote: »

Also remember op that the seller may not be aware of the rust underneath any more than you were.
Just because you are selling a car does not mean that you are aware of all its faults.

How do you know he works at the nct test centre?

You may not know every fault but ignorance of a dangerous defect does not absolve you of any responsibility for the consequences of selling a dangerously defective car.

The OP's son should to get a engineer's formal report on the car and if the car is confirmed as dangerous then at the very least he is entitled to his money back or have it repaired at no cost.

christy02

goz83 wrote: »

I'm scratching my head wondering what you're on about. Your post in essence only serves to validate my point.

With regards to the post you're quoting; i was responding to another poster who did not mention the fiesta specifically, but rather the price of a car (€1000) causing alarm bells to ring.

And i am not the op. I didn't buy the fiesta. A bit of research would have told you that.

I was agreeing with you. No need to be so smart.

If I was buying a fiesta of that vintage I would research common problems is all I was saying.

goz83

christy02 wrote: »

I was agreeing with you. No need to be so smart.

If I was buying a fiesta of that vintage I would research common problems is all I was saying.

Hence the head scratching. Your opening line seemed to disagree with my post and it looked like you thought i had bought the fiesta. No harm so:pac:

colm_mcm

I'd find it hard to believe an nct tester would tell you they were one if they were selling a car with a dodgy test.

the culture of deference

Contact NCT head office and explain the situation.

Get them to arrange for someone to inspect the rust and tell you if it should have passed.

Get the NCT investigator to go back to where it was NCT tested and see what happens.

colm_mcm

Isn't there a good chance that the OP will just end up with a car without NCT then?

They could just say the rust mightn't have been there before and there's nothing they can do?

Granted the disc doesn't make the car roadworthy.

goz83

colm_mcm wrote: »

Isn't there a good chance that the OP will just end up with a car without NCT then?

They could just say the rust mightn't have been there before and there's nothing they can do?

Granted the disc doesn't make the car roadworthy.

They couldn't rescind the current cert, could they?

colm_mcm

goz83 wrote: »

They couldn't rescind the current cert, could they?

I know they don't do that if you bring in a car for test with remaining test and the car is deemed unsafe to drive

kona

People should treat the nct for what it is, another tax. It's not even a road worthiness test

colm_mcm

kona wrote: »

It's not even a road worthiness test

How is it not a roadworthiness test? Is that not exactly what it is?

Honestcars

OP I doubt the Nct cert is genuine, ring the Nct centre in the morning with the car reg, they will verify it. Also i doubt the seller works for the local Nct centre, have you tried to contact him since? Was the log book in his name? My guess is hes a bit of a wheeler dealer, Google his mobile number
I agree with some of what Stella Virgo is saying, too many people tend to go by an Nct cert to judge the overall condition of a car.
All the Nct means is that the car is deemed roadworthy by the tester at the time of testing.

goz83

Honestcars wrote: »

All the Nct means is that the car is deemed roadworthy by the tester at the time of testing.

kona

colm_mcm wrote: »

How is it not a roadworthiness test? Is that not exactly what it is?

A racket tbh, they call it a road worthiness test but there's so much bull**** from them it just makes it look like it a scam.

Since when is a vin number a road worthiness item for example? ( now I know your going to say prevents ringing, BUT I wouldn't class it as road worthiness tbh)
Another is two cars pass the same test on the same day, one gets 6 months the other 2 years.
Another is the op example.
Pre 80 doesn't need it , 80- +10 years is a year, under ten is two years. Why does the same test have different lengths of validity?

Then another is if you've a LSD fitted and they lash it on the brake tester and destroy it.

To be fair it has removed alot of ****e from the road but IMO it leaves alot to be desired.


Sorry bout the smiley above don't know how it got there!

Guy:Incognito

kona wrote: »

Since when is a vin number a road worthiness item for example? ( now I know your going to say prevents ringing, BUT I wouldn't class it as road worthiness tbh).

So what?, never bother checking Vin numbers on cars? Let people ring cars, swap plates and do as they please? If your sold a car that's a cut and shut then a vin most definitely becomes a roadworthiness item.

The NCT is the handiest place to have various things checked while they are in for a test. a car that's in order is never going to fail on a Vin number issue so whats the problem? It makes the most sense. But don't let that get in the way of a good moan.

Would you rather have to go in for a second test to check all the things you don't think should be done on a roadworthiness test?

kona wrote: »

Then another is if you've a LSD fitted and they lash it on the brake tester and destroy it.

The NCT wrecking your car in error is irrelevant to a rant about it being a tax.


You seem to just want to give out, but don't have a proper direction for it. A periodic check for cars is a good thing, end of.

Cars over 10 years getting a one year cert will happen either way, regardless of what younger cars get . Would you rather it was a 1 year cert from the time the car turns 1? I have a feeling that regardless of the make up of it, you'll find something to give out about.

corktina

your example of one car getting 6 months and another 2 years has an obvious flaw. The guy who got6 months is long overdue for the test . You can do it three months early there's no excuse for doing it 6 months late.(with the exception of a newly registered import)

Kenny Logins

The reason for checking the VIN is to confirm the car's identity. I thought that was obvious.

kona

corktina wrote: »

your example of one car getting 6 months and another 2 years has an obvious flaw. The guy who got6 months is long overdue for the test . You can do it three months early there's no excuse for doing it 6 months late.(with the exception of a newly registered import)

That's totally irrelevant in the case of a "test". Both cars should get the same time, also it's to do with your year of registration not how overdue it is.

Nct is enforced and lack of punished by road traffic acts not the nct themselves.

kona

Kenny Logins wrote: »

The reason for checking the VIN is to confirm the car's identity. I thought that was obvious.

It is obvious

blackplum123

aquarius10 wrote: »

My 20 yr old son bought a 1998 car for €1000 recently through done deal and paid cash. it had just passed the NCT And looked ok. You'd think it would be a Safe bet ?

He has since put it up on a lift and checked by a mechanic who cannot believe it recently passed an NCT due to the amount of rust & corrosion on the chassis underneath. It will need a lot of work done to pass the next NCT.

The person who sold the car works in the local NCT centre. Alarm bells ringing in my head !

Before we phone the seller, have we any comeback ? Is there an ombudsman or what should we do ... I honestly think he has pulled a fast one, advice please

can I ask what part of the country the car was purchased in. I am in a similar kind situation.

Regards