Calling all window suppliers!!!

lilmissabc

Ok at the end of my tether with this really beginning to think nobody wants to work any more!!!!

Wanted: 11 windows 2 doors and 1 patio door. Wanted in triple glaze PVC.
Job is in Thurles. This is a refurbishment not a new build.

5 companies later they either don't call or don't turn up for the callout.

Superdaddy

I know the feeling, impossible to get quotes.

bertie 56

Strangely enough, people don't have too much customers there... :rolleyes:

galwaytt

bertie 56 wrote: »

Strangely enough, people don't have too much customers there... :rolleyes:

Eh ???? Please expand. ..

bertie 56

galwaytt wrote: »

Eh ???? Please expand. ..

It's out of topic completely, but if you compare the reactivity of some companies here and somewhere else, you can arrive to the conclusion that some companies seems to need customers to do business , where some others , apparently, don't need much customers to do business.

I find the UK companies more reactive and more prone to sell, in general, than here. It's my own experience, maybe it's linked with what I buy as well ?

But when you ring/Email a company 4 or 5 times for a substancial order and you don't get any reply, I think there is a problem somewhere, no ?


Saying this, I don't have much solutions for the OP...

alfa beta

hey - I'm looking at changing a few windows - not a big job - sent off a message on the contact page on the <snip> site late one sunday night and the next day got an email back followed by a phonecall and quotes on different products later that day.....seemed very good and friendly.

haven't progressed with the job as of yet but found the initial responsiveness and friendliness and info very good.

dunno if you've tried em or not, but might be worth a buzz. (I've no connection to the company or anything, just liked their approach.)

joeirish

I too have had the same problem. Some companies are very good and quick, others don't seem to give a damn. My windows will work out at over 22k so very surprising that this is considered not to be worth bothering with.

Same with metal gutter suppliers, insulated roofing sheets and other materials.

And don't get me started on trying to get a quotation for traditional cavity wall construction. Timber frame companies excellent at giving detailed quotes. But one builder wanted 800 plus vat just to give a quote! Now I know it takes time to do this but as a customer I'm just not going to pay two or three thousand just to get some quotes. So the message from me is, you don't even get to be considered for my 175k + build.

I also spent several months trying to get prices for clay block build method and in the end have decided not to use this because it was impossible to get realistic quotes comparable to the detail from TF companies.

And your right that UK companies seem to be far more interested in supplying materials than many Irish companies.

Really annoying.

BryanF

joeirish wrote: »

I too have had the same problem. Some companies are very good and quick, others don't seem to give a damn. My windows will work out at over 22k so very surprising that this is considered not to be worth bothering with.

Same with metal gutter suppliers, insulated roofing sheets and other materials.

And don't get me started on trying to get a quotation for traditional cavity wall construction. Timber frame companies excellent at giving detailed quotes. But one builder wanted 800 plus vat just to give a quote! Now I know it takes time to do this but as a customer I'm just not going to pay two or three thousand just to get some quotes. So the message from me is, you don't even get to be considered for my 175k + build.

I also spent several months trying to get prices for clay block build method and in the end have decided not to use this because it was impossible to get realistic quotes comparable to the detail from TF companies.

And your right that UK companies seem to be far more interested in supplying materials than many Irish companies.

Really annoying.

Joe as was explained to you in another thread some time back, and as you highlight above, pricing work does take time & expertise so therefore costs a small contractor the guts of a weeks wages. So that's why it's best if your own Qs assess such costs.

galwaytt

BryanF wrote: »

Joe as was explained to you in another thread some time back, and as you highlight above, pricing work does take time & expertise so therefore costs a small contractor the guts of a weeks wages. So that's why it's best if your own Qs assess such costs.

I've been thinking about all these things for some time, so I might just start a new thread rather than derail this one.

Suffice to say for now that there's merit in all sides but you make a valid point one often missed. That is, that the job of pricing something as large as a house in itself is exactly that - a job. It involves time and expertise: and ultimately whoever is doing it has to be paid by someone.

Where non calculated pricing is obtained by a client , then he needs his professionals: QS for example, to check it.

And guess what ? He has to be paid too ...

4Sticks

Superdaddy wrote: »

I know the feeling, impossible to get quotes.

With a €300 set of working drawings I would expect so

4Sticks

For the best chance of multiple qoutes - employ an architect or architectural technician to prepare a Windows Schedule and specification and letter of invitation to tender.
Without that you may come across as a tyre kicker. In recession companies don't waste resources on them.

4Sticks

joeirish wrote: »

one builder wanted 800 plus vat just to give a quote! Now I know it takes time to do this but as a customer I'm just not going to pay two or three thousand just to get some quotes. So the message from me is, you don't even get to be considered for my 175k + build.

You will spend many many multiples of the fee cost of a QS on your build if you do not hire a QS. I have seen this again and again and again over 30 years.

But I am sure you know what your doing of course. How complicated can it be - right

joeirish

I realise that it costs to have a price for a total build. I was just pointing out first that TF manufacturers don't seem to have a problem with doing this whereas others do. But on the matter of windows (which is where this thread started) I am still surprised that a very large window manufacturer just can't be bothered, so it seems, to give me a quote based on detailed drawings.

As for using a QS, I have already spoken to a couple. And guess what? The first question they ask is "What build method are you thinking of using, TF, cavity wall, single leaf with EWI or something else?". And it is impossible for me to answer that unless I have some idea of the relative costs of each. And after many months all I really have is some TF prices (in great detail so thanks to you all).

But on the tendering process, is it really the case that each tender requires the customer to pay for the quotation? That just seems odd to me.

joeirish

4Sticks wrote: »

With a €300 set of working drawings I would expect so

In my case already spent €6000 on architect drawings.:(

joeirish

4Sticks wrote: »

You will spend many many multiples of the fee cost of a QS on your build if you do not hire a QS. I have seen this again and again and again over 30 years.

But I am sure you know what your doing of course. How complicated can it be - right

See my reply above to this point. The QS wants to know what build method I am going to use. I need to have some idea of comparative prices to help me decision (and build within my budget). So what's the solution?

BryanF

joeirish wrote: »

See my reply above to this point. The QS wants to know what build method I am going to use. I need to have some idea of comparative prices to help me decision (and build within my budget). So what's the solution?

Joe i can't accept this.
the qs may well ask you what your preference is. BUT your quiet entitled to ask them what the cost difference is between these methods for your build. they are the cost experts;)

Superdaddy

What the QS says it will cost and what the builder charges are not always the same, if ever.
I got 4 prices to put in my road and prepare the site for foundations. I requested price for labor and materials. I met each of the contractors on site. They all got the same brief and spec. The difference in quotes was quite stark, between quality of quote to the difference in cost. The most detailed quote was fully itemised, very professional and worked out the cheapest, in fact he approached me at planning stage and asked to be considered for the job. He got the job.

Would you do your weekly shopping in a shop with no visible prices, you only find out the total after you enter your bank card PIN number?

galwaytt

We should go back to the name really: Quantity Surveyor.

The job is twofold: First part :He establishes Bills of Quantities, based on indicative plans, from which pricing may be sent out for tender for. Any pricing you get in advance of any tender you have to allow for the fact that a QS has to prepare costs for you based on realistic expectations in the marketplace. There is no magic database to look it up on. A lot of this is based on experience and local knowledge.

This establishes a budget from which to work.
This guides you to whether you are in the ball park for your own use. Say like whether you need 200k or 400k.

Second part: However once the BoQ is done and tenders sent out and received back he then reconciles that the tenders received are correct and updates his information for your benefit. From this you make your determination.

The tender process only tells you what people are prepared to work for. Some people are happy to have loss leaders, others not.

It's an elastic process, not cast in stone.

Consider it a journey: unless you have a map, you won't know where to go. And a QS a cartographer.

4Sticks

Superdaddy wrote: »

I got 4 prices to put in my road and prepare the site for foundations. I requested price for labor and materials. I met each of the contractors on site. They all got the same brief and spec. The difference in quotes was quite stark, between quality of quote to the difference in cost. The most detailed quote was fully itemised, very professional and worked out the cheapest, in fact he approached me at planning stage and asked to be considered for the job. He got the job.

Now all you have to do is repeat that process with all the other build elements.

Pepsirebel

I disagree, I've worked as a qs with a number of specialist contractors over the years & would say that the way it's done is you give a quotation and where possible some alternative solution with costings.

These quotations were always free and would be included in in the cost of the project, if you were successful. It's a chance you take when pricing a job.

4Sticks

joeirish wrote: »

I too have had the same problem. Some companies are very good and quick, others don't seem to give a damn. My windows will work out at over 22k so very surprising that this is considered not to be worth bothering with.

How have you made contact joe?. What information do you use to seek qoutes?

joeirish

4Sticks wrote: »

How have you made contact joe?. What information do you use to seek qoutes?

I used the architect drawings. This worked for all companies who quoted. But just one has not (apparently their website contact form send details to somebody who left the firm several months ago!). So after three emails and a phone call, one response, finally, acknowledging receipt of my detailed plans, still no prices.

Oh and I told them the range of u values I required, what types if frames, the kind of openings. But as I say, it is now just his one (big) Irish glass company who have not given a quite for windows.

But the same issues raised by another poster here applies. Irish companies by and large are not as good at providing quiets as their UK of German counterparts. And I say this from experience trying to get prices for zinc guttering, timber cladding, clay blocks, wood stoves and other items.

joeirish

galwaytt wrote: »

We should go back to the name really: Quantity Surveyor.

The job is twofold: First part :He establishes Bills of Quantities, based on indicative plans, from which pricing may be sent out for tender for. Any pricing you get in advance of any tender you have to allow for the fact that a QS has to prepare costs for you based on realistic expectations in the marketplace. There is no magic database to look it up on. A lot of this is based on experience and local knowledge.

This establishes a budget from which to work.
This guides you to whether you are in the ball park for your own use. Say like whether you need 200k or 400k.

Second part: However once the BoQ is done and tenders sent out and received back he then reconciles that the tenders received are correct and updates his information for your benefit. From this you make your determination.

The tender process only tells you what people are prepared to work for. Some people are happy to have loss leaders, others not.

It's an elastic process, not cast in stone.

Consider it a journey: unless you have a map, you won't know where to go. And a QS a cartographer.

I understand all that. My point is really quite simple. Why can TF manufacturers give a fairly detailed quote FOC but those who build with other methods cannot when given the same architect drawings? It does not require any input from a QS or a BoQ to do this. As a customer I just find it odd.

sydthebeat

joeirish wrote: »

I understand all that. My point is really quite simple. Why can TF manufacturers give a fairly detailed quote FOC but those who build with other methods cannot when given the same architect drawings? It does not require any input from a QS or a BoQ to do this. As a customer I just find it odd.

Because TF is a closed homogeneous build type with very little room for variance, outside of the specificatIon available. Once it's erected on site that's it, No other input for the TF manufacturer.

Block builds are a lot more malleable in specification and one change can have a huge knock on effect to lots of other elements and trades.

It's quite obvious really.

bertie 56

There is two things there :

- asking for " how much would cost me this house with these plans , from scratch to turn-key condition "

or

-asking for " how much is a pallet of 50 sheets of 18mm WBP - 8'x4' "


I could understand a company that doesn't want to bother quoting the first question for free. A quantity surveyor might help in this case.


What I find hard is not to get an answer at the second question.
But yes, they might know better than me, they are the business men after all...

joeirish

sydthebeat wrote: »

Because TF is a closed homogeneous build type with very little room for variance, outside of the specificatIon available. Once it's erected on site that's it, No other input for the TF manufacturer.

Block builds are a lot more malleable in specification and one change can have a huge knock on effect to lots of other elements and trades.

It's quite obvious really.

Not quite obvious to a potential customer. I've given destiled drawings, dimensions, u values etc to builders to get a comparable quote as those I got for TF.

And why some builders will give quotes and others won't, why some suppliers will give quotes and others won't. Still good for TF manufacturers I suppose.

sydthebeat

joeirish wrote: »

1. Not quite obvious to a potential customer. I've given destiled drawings, dimensions, u values etc to builders to get a comparable quote as those I got for TF.

2. And why some builders will give quotes and others won't, why some suppliers will give quotes and others won't. Still good for TF manufacturers I suppose.

1. u values??? thats useless for a builder to price from, you need to give them the actual construction specification.

2. i cant answer why some wont quote you... could it be for the reason ive given above?


there are two kinds of specifications
performance specification dictates how the product will perform. It leaves a lot open to the manufacturer as to what to do wto meet the performance criteria.
Design specification (also called prescribed specification) dictate exactly what quality and quantity of materials to use.

The former is pretty useless to quote from, the latter is exactly what you need to compare "apples to apples" quotes.

A TF company can easily offer quotes on performance specifications, once their system is malleable enough to augment.



let me give you an example.....
if you say to a builder i want a wall U value of 0.21, go price away

well does the builder quote for a 200 cavity blown bead construction?? with a 400mm rising wall and 1200 wide foundation? specialist wall ties at non standard centres.... boxed in cavity closing at window opes, woodfibre eaves closers etc
or price for a 100 cavity with 60mm board insulation and internal drylining, with a 310 rising wall and 930 foundation??? standard wall ties at standard centres.... block cavity closers at jambs and eaves

do you see the difference and the knock on effect such a choice makes to the over all construction of a house??

galwaytt

joeirish wrote: »

Not quite obvious to a potential customer. I've given destiled drawings, dimensions, u values etc to builders to get a comparable quote as those I got for TF.

And why some builders will give quotes and others won't, why some suppliers will give quotes and others won't. Still good for TF manufacturers I suppose.

...but isn't that a perfect example of the difference between objective 'system' pricing, and subjective site-built stuff ? In most cases only the former is actually specifically calculated and price-fixed. The latter very often isn't.

Which is why, for instance in the UK generally, off-site manufacturing is set to become the norm, so reversing the traditional 'balance' of offsite to site. I was there on a site last week, and they can get neither brickie's nor actual bricks - yet building must still progress, so they are looking outside tradition.

joeirish

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. u values??? thats useless for a builder to price from, you need to give them the actual construction specification.

2. i cant answer why some wont quote you... could it be for the reason ive given above?


there are two kinds of specifications
performance specification dictates how the product will perform. It leaves a lot open to the manufacturer as to what to do wto meet the performance criteria.
Design specification (also called prescribed specification) dictate exactly what quality and quantity of materials to use.

The former is pretty useless to quote from, the latter is exactly what you need to compare "apples to apples" quotes.

A TF company can easily offer quotes on performance specifications, once their system is malleable enough to augment.



let me give you an example.....
if you say to a builder i want a wall U value of 0.21, go price away

well does the builder quote for a 200 cavity blown bead construction?? with a 400mm rising wall and 1200 wide foundation? specialist wall ties at non standard centres.... boxed in cavity closing at window opes, woodfibre eaves closers etc
or price for a 100 cavity with 60mm board insulation and internal drylining, with a 310 rising wall and 930 foundation??? standard wall ties at standard centres.... block cavity closers at jambs and eaves

do you see the difference and the knock on effect such a choice makes to the over all construction of a house??

Sorry, obviously not made myself clear. I went to builders specifically to get quotes for either cavity or single leaf with external insulation. Insulation companies gave me builders details who have installed their products. I asked same builders for approximate cost for cavity with sufficient depth for insulation to give me similar u values as for EWI do I could compare prices. I haven't had any builder not quote because of lack of spec from me, just that it costs them too much to do the quote for cavity or EWI (except for one very helpful guy). That is my issue. How can I make any sort of meaningful decision on the build method choice if I can't get some sort of comparisons on prices. And I'm only talking about walls and roof, foundations are a different item. And I have price for different insulation, air tightness etc.

I'm sure I'll get the information I require eventually, but it is a struggle (and maybe not important because I'll probably go down the off site construction approach in the end because I couldn't get adequate information from others).

Thanks

BryanF

Paying for advice or expecting advice for free. I'm very impressed that you'd go for off-site construction to spite the other options available to you. because the small building works contractor won't work for free.

I wish you the very best of luck on your build , please come back and tell us how you get on with your self build, Particularly all the things you got correct

Superdaddy

BryanF wrote: »

Paying for advice or expecting advice for free. I'm very impressed that you'd go for off-site construction to spite the other options available to you. because the small building works contractor won't work for free.

I wish you the very best of luck on your build , please come back and tell us how you get on with your self build, Particularly all the things you got correct

So how are you supposed to find out how much they charge? Slip them a blank cheque when you ask them for a quote and tell them to charge for pricing of their product and labor? Let me guess, we are supposed to hire a QS to estimate what the builder might charge? Maybe you could enlighten us foolish self builders or you could just post another sarcastic post like the rest of the pros here propping up the building industry.

4Sticks

Superdaddy wrote: »

So how are you supposed to find out how much they charge?

By formal tender using properly prepared documentation

Superdaddy wrote: »

hire a QS to estimate what the builder might charge

Before tenders are invited - yes. Based on his prep of BofQ compilation of drawings and specifications and form of tender document.

Then after tenders are back to examine them all and determine the best value tender which more often than not won't be the lowest bottom line amount.

Then during the build prepare progress valuations and also to assess variations.

joeirish

BryanF wrote: »

Paying for advice or expecting advice for free. I'm very impressed that you'd go for off-site construction to spite the other options available to you. because the small building works contractor won't work for free.

I wish you the very best of luck on your build , please come back and tell us how you get on with your self build, Particularly all the things you got correct

BryanF

Is that for me? Because I'm not sure what you mean.

joeirish

4Sticks wrote: »

By formal tender using properly prepared documentation



Before tenders are invited - yes. Based on his prep of BofQ compilation of drawings and specifications and form of tender document.

Then after tenders are back to examine them all and determine the best value tender which more often than not won't be the lowest bottom line amount.

Then during the build prepare progress valuations and also to assess variations.

But the problem is that we are recommended to get three or four tenders. And when each is going to cost around 1000 euros that is quite an expensive way just to find out which builder to use. I see contracts for tender (and these are big tenders) regularly advertised in the press by government departments, local councils, and I've submitted my tenders in the past. But there is no question of the customer paying for the tender, they just do a lot of work hoping to get some business. And you win some and you loose some. All I can say is that the builder who quoted me 800 plus vat didn't get the job. And won't be considered either. I can't afford to throw that type of money away.

Anyway thanks for all the interesting responses.

4Sticks

No you misunderstand. You get your QS to prepare the documents as I described - then you don't pay the builders anything for tendering.
And all are pricing exactly the same thing then.

4Sticks

joeirish wrote: »

All I can say is that the builder who quoted me 800 plus vat didn't get the job. And won't be considered either. I can't afford to throw that type of money away.

From the builders side he can't sensibly tender for a lets say €200k project without a very serious and measured study of what he is committing to. I was speaking to a builder who recently spend several thousands on several tenders and landed nothing. Not your problem you might say and many will agree.

But if you as the client invest in a proper description of your works meaning comprehensive working drawings , specifications , DEAP calculations , BofQ , schedules and letter of tender then

1. You will actually receive multiple quotes
2. The potential for disputes and misunderstanding during the works is almost eliminated

Superdaddy

4Sticks wrote: »

By formal tender using properly prepared documentation

Before tenders are invited - yes. Based on his prep of BofQ compilation of drawings and specifications and form of tender document.

Then after tenders are back to examine them all and determine the best value tender which more often than not won't be the lowest bottom line amount.

Then during the build prepare progress valuations and also to assess variations.

That's as reasonable a response as I've seen from you....

DOCARCH

Mod Note: I have done some 'cleaning up'. Please keep on topic (and stop winding each other up...you know who you are!).

Superdaddy

kkelliher

From a QS perspective, the reason you dont get prices back from builders is quite simple. The cost of tendering building projects is completely disproportionate to the margin they receive.

Send them a bunch of drawings and a specification and it will cost them on average about €1k to price the job and they may win 1 in 5/6 and they have no guarantee that their price will even be considered despite the fact that they tendered as their price may be higher than others but may also include for different items as a drawings and spec tender process ie very open ended.

If you employ a QS do produce a bill of quantities, it will cost a builder a couple of hundred euro to have it priced as no measurement is involved. Alot of builders will price it themselves. It lists every item and the builder knows that he will have a like with like comparison and therefore it is a more efficient tender system and process.

A timber frame company dont need to charge for pricing as they use automated systems. They are selling a prefabricated product and they have systems to price this quite quickly and easily. The same does not go for a builder who has to price a vast amount of different trades, materials and interactions.

If your not willing to pay for a QS to produce a comprehensive schedule when you cant complain if a builder does not wish to price it for you as why should he pay to have this done for you when you wont even pay to have it done for yourself?

Tefral

kkelliher wrote: »

It lists every item and the builder knows that he will have a like with like comparison and therefore it is a more efficient tender system and process.

Just want to back this point up as it's very important. If you don't get a BOQ done and you leave it up to the builder. Say they do decide to price it, the client is very unlikely to get what they want and more what the builder wants, they will pick materials etc that they can make a better margin on and these could be completely different to what the client might have wanted.

The only way to ensure everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet is to get drawings, specs and a BOQ done. A contractor is in the game to make money and if there is loop holes in documents etc they will exploit them.

Invest some money at the start and it will save multiples by the time the job is over.

4Sticks

cronin_j wrote: »

Invest some money at the start and it will save multiples by the time the job is over.

A QS will save multiples of his fee on a project every time.
That is what many - not all - first time self builder have trouble accepting.

kkelliher

4Sticks wrote: »

That is what many - not all - first time self builder have trouble accepting.

To be fair that is one of the many many things self builders have trouble accepting.....

bmm

i think this thread needs to be renamed to;

"Why should i pay for a quote??"

because it has nothing to do with Windows !

4Sticks

I can see right through it