dog killed a lamb today

puddles22

Ok I was packing the car today next thing I know the dog had opened the front door of the house herself and away she bolted, I took after her in car no luck she is very very fast, anyhow got a phone call a few minutes later saying my dog ess in a field and had killed a lamb, this to me was one of those unlucky incidents,I consider myself very responsible when it comes to my dog, she is never off lead outside, doors are locked when she is inside because I know she likes to open them, this all happened in a couple of seconds, I phoned the sheep owner immediately, apologised offered to pay for the lamb, conversation started ok but then he started getting a bit over heated, threatening to do something about the dog,the thing is he lets his sheep roam everywhere, they go through people's garden, they trample and **** everywhere, I know that the land the lamb was killed on wasn't his and the sheep had just roamed on to it, I get he's pissed but does he not have a responsibility to control his livestock to?

Pretzill

puddles22 wrote: »

Ok I was packing the car today next thing I know the dog had opened the front door of the house herself and away she bolted, I took after her in car no luck she is very very fast, anyhow got a phone call a few minutes later saying my dog ess in a field and had killed a lamb, this to me was one of those unlucky incidents,I consider myself very responsible when it comes to my dog, she is never off lead outside, doors are locked when she is inside because I know she likes to open them, this all happened in a couple of seconds, I phoned the sheep owner immediately, iapologised offered to pay for the lamb, conversation started ok but then he started getting a bit over heated, threatening to do something about the dog,the thing is he lets his sheep roam everywhere, they go through people's garden, they trample and **** everywhere, I know that the land the lamb was killed on wasn't his and the sheep had just roamed on to it, I get he's pissed but does he not have a responsibility to control his livestock to?

What a horrible situation OP - have you or the farmer proof it was your dog that did it? By the sounds of your post you were in hot pursuit of your straying dog - was she seen attacking the lamb or was she just caught sniffing carrion? These are the questions I ask you because I'd ask myself too if any of my dogs ran free, unusually, and were blamed - it's awful and something I'm vigilant about as I live rural and my girl can open doors too! If it is the case she killed is it commonage where the lamb was? That's not the same as a lamb or sheep wandering btw. And again if she did kill the farmer is valid in his fears - you need to put his mind at rest make sure your dog is controlled in future and the farmer knows this and pay any compensation owing -

StompToWork

To be honest, considering you offered to pay for the lamb, I would say that you have done all you can do to resolve the situation. If the farmer is now not willing to play ball, I would suggest that he provide proof that your dog destroyed his lamb or feck off. But if you are going the latter route, delete this thread!!!!

fits

Can't believe this. There is no way that you are not in the wrong here OP. No way. You lost control of your dog. Accept responsibility and consider how you are going to avoid this happening in future. I am sure the dog traumatised the other sheep as well as killing that lamb.

mikemac1

If the other ewes begin to abort due to the stress and terror you will compensating the farmer for that too OP.

A lamb is never on its own and your dog must have charged into the flock.

puddles22

fits wrote: »

Can't believe this. There is no way that you are not in the wrong here OP. No way. You lost control of your dog. Accept responsibility and consider how you are going to avoid this happening in future. I am sure the dog traumatised the other sheep as well as killing that lamb.

yes I'm in the wrong I accept that, I caught the dog with the lamb in her mouth, the whole thing over about ten minutes from the moment she got out. I rang straight away, and offered to compensate whatever it may be , the fact remains he was threatening with regard to my dog whom i obviously want to protect , that's I why I ask about surely there to has to a responsibility on him to keep his animals contained in some
Way

fits

A farmer actually has every right to shoot a dog attacking their sheep. I am not sure of the legalities if the incident occurred on someone else's land if no tenancy agreement.

Standard practice is to put a dog down if they killed a sheep to be honest. If you're not going to go down that road you need to take serious steps to ensure it doesn't happen again but if it does, insurance wont cover you and you'll be in trouble if it comes before a judge.

lollsangel

puddles22 wrote: »

yes I'm in the wrong I accept that, I caught the dog with the lamb in her mouth, the whole thing over about ten minutes from the moment she got out. I rang straight away, and offered to compensate whatever it may be , the fact remains he was threatening with regard to my dog whom i obviously want to protect , that's I why I ask about surely there to has to a responsibility on him to keep his animals contained in some
Way

Op as far as I would be concerned offering to pay for the lamb is enough. It would be different if your dog strayed into his land and done this. However I would be looking at ensuring the dog cannot get past the gate in future. Ive lost count of the amount of times ive nearly hit stray sheep 8n the road. While its important for us to keep our dogs in, some farmers would want to look at themselves and their attitude to straying.

Montgolfier

Just to play devils advocate for a moment. Suppose your dog killed someone else's dog, would it be enough to just pay for the value of the dog?
Or push the boat out to the extreme, if your dog attacked and killed a child should you just pay compensation?
You see your dog maybe a part of your family but he will always be a risk to the public now he has killed and tasted blood.
You may have control of your dog 95% of the time but theres always a chance.

DBB

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just to play devils advocate for a moment. Suppose your dog killed someone else's dog, would it be enough to just pay for the value of the dog?
Or push the boat out to the extreme, if your dog attacked and killed a child should you just pay compensation?
You see your dog maybe a part of your family but he will always be a risk to the public now he has killed and tasted blood.
You may have control of your dog 95% of the time but theres always a chance.

Straw-man arguments are of no use to anyone in this situation.
What if? What if? What if?
Your comment about the dog being a risk to the public now she has killed, tasted blood etc is, not to put too fine a point on it, utter nonsense. The dog may be a risk to sheep (all dogs always are), but to deduce that this dog is a risk to people now, based on the fact that she killed a lamb, is utter scaremongering with no basis in fact whatsoever.
OP, that the farmer's sheep stray onto other land is a completely separate argument, and in no way lessens your liability. He is responsible for keeping his stock safely contained, but it's a side issue here. Your offer of compensation for the lamb should be teamed up with a clear effort made to make sure your dog cannot leave your property should the front door be left open again.
You may get a visit from the warden and have to pay a fine for allowing your dog to stray, if the farmer reports you.
In my experience, it is not true to say that it's standard practise for a dog that has killed livestock to be put to sleep. There is no legal requirement for this to happen after the act, and as long as the owner is seen to take immediate and effective action to ensure their dog can't escape again, it rarely goes further than that.

bbam

We farm and I think I'd be insisting the dog is destroyed.
Has done it once and will in all likelihood do it again, may be even more driven now that it has gone down that sad route.
It's crazy if the farmer is letting sheep onto others land, but that's a seperate issue, your dog didn't kill the lamb because it was in the wrong field, it killed the lamb because it was out of control.

I think you should pull your horns in and hope the most you have to do is compensate for one lost lamb. Like I said, if it were me I'd be onto the guards asking to have the dog destroyed.

road_high

So the dog opened the front door of the house by itself and ran off....

Mad4simmental

Count yourself lucky it's not shot, it probably will be next time.

DK man

The problem is not really about one lamb - the other sheep could abort with the stress of this incident.

I think you did all that you could and fair play most would hide their dog away. The margins in sheep farming are very thin and any knocks or loses can wipe out any profits after a full years work. Sheep farmers who are lambing now are getting very little sleep or more broken sleep and are no doubt feeling the strains of their work so would be easily upset....

With one lamb alone this would be a hit of about €100 - if he is a pedigree breeder then it would be multiples of this...

Hope it all settles down - again u did the right thing.

borderlinemeath

road_high wrote: »

So the dog opened the front door of the house by itself and ran off....

Dogs are very capable of opening doors once they figure out how. I know plenty that do it, both inwards and outwards doors.

OP, you've offered to compensate the farmer, you accepted responsibility and acted immediately when your dog got away. It's not as if your dog was roaming all night, just shoved out the door. You need to dog proof your doors in some way or get a secure run that your dog cannot escape from. A quick fix if your doors are easy enough is to take the handles out and turn them upside down, your dog (hopefully!) won't be able to get upward motion and it's bid for freedom will be stopped.

I don't agree that the dog should be put down, accidents can happen and the OP has managed thus far to contain her dog, she just needs to ensure it never happens again. Any dog can be a liability around livestock, any dog is capable of running through a flock without even touching a sheep, yet many ewes will abort with the fright, so should all dogs be put down?

I don't know what way it works with the farmer having his sheep graze on others land, you may need evidence of this if it goes as far as court. Hopefully if the farmer accepts compensation it wont, but the fact is your dog was still out of control, on another persons land, regardless of whether it was the farmers or not, so I don't know whether a judge will take it into consideration.

MadYaker

My dog was able to open the back door of our house no problem.

miss no stars

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Dogs are very capable of opening doors once they figure out how. I know plenty that do it, both inwards and outwards doors.

OP, you've offered to compensate the farmer, you accepted responsibility and acted immediately when your dog got away. It's not as if your dog was roaming all night, just shoved out the door. You need to dog proof your doors in some way or get a secure run that your dog cannot escape from. A quick fix if your doors are easy enough is to take the handles out and turn them upside down, your dog (hopefully!) won't be able to get upward motion and it's bid for freedom will be stopped.

I don't agree that the dog should be put down, accidents can happen and the OP has managed thus far to contain her dog, she just needs to ensure it never happens again. Any dog can be a liability around livestock, any dog is capable of running through a flock without even touching a sheep, yet many ewes will abort with the fright, so should all dogs be put down?

I don't know what way it works with the farmer having his sheep graze on others land, you may need evidence of this if it goes as far as court. Hopefully if the farmer accepts compensation it wont, but the fact is your dog was still out of control, on another persons land, regardless of whether it was the farmers or not, so I don't know whether a judge will take it into consideration.

Or change them for twisty knob type handles.

pooch90

Our dog can open doors very easily, even inward opening ones. She has also been seen opening windows!
I would recommend putting a safety chain on the door as an easy fix. Also, if warden does come, it shows you have taken steps to prevent it happening again.

yessam

We had huge problems a few years ago with neighbours pets. The owners couldn't believe it when there dogs were shot and owners asked to compensate for stress and losses in flock.

The dog is now a sheep killer and has the taste of blood.
It will attack again and when identified by farmer it will cost you a lot of money and your dogs life.
Remember in the farming community your dog is now a know killer.

My advice is to get rid of now.

kristian12

bbam wrote: »

We farm and I think I'd be insisting the dog is destroyed.

Out of curiosity what standing would this insistence have in law?

OP as others have said escape proof your house and garden, repeat your offer of compensation once tempers have calmed realising the farmer has every reason to have been annoyed.

Artful_Badger

I know it was an unfortunate incident OP and these things can happen in an instant. But I completely understand the farmer being a bit angry about it and not happy to just accept payment for the dead lamb and leave it at that as its an incident that can easily happen again considering your dog can let itself out of the house and went straight on to kill a lamb.

At the same time its also expected that you'd try argue your case, but his lambs going everywhere is a completely separate issue to your dog killing his lamb imo. And one between him and whosoever land the lambs are on. The issue of the dog killing the lamb is the issue at hand and the fault for that lies entirely with you the owner.

Hopefully after a couple days once the initial upset wears off it might be easier to come to a compromise.

rannerap

A dairy farmer I know had a dog that he absolutely adored. It got out one day and killed a sheep so he had the dog put down straight away as he said if it happens once it'll happen again. I wouldn't be surprised if the farmer comes after you to have your dog put down

borderlinemeath

Sarannewrap wrote: »

A dairy farmer I know had a dog that he absolutely adored. It got out one day and killed a sheep so he had the dog put down straight away as he said if it happens once it'll happen again. I wouldn't be surprised if the farmer comes after you to have your dog put down

It will only happen again if the owner lets it. There are ways to secure the garden, secure the doors and prevent it happening again.
Any dog can be a potential threat to livestock, the 'taste for blood' argument that gets thrown about is a myth. Of course if a dog worries sheep it has the capacity to do it again, as do all other dogs that are secured in their homes/gardens.

Artful_Badger

borderlinemeath wrote: »

It will only happen again if the owner lets it. There are ways to secure the garden, secure the doors and prevent it happening again.
Any dog can be a potential threat to livestock, the 'taste for blood' argument that gets thrown about is a myth. Of course if a dog worries sheep it has the capacity to do it again, as do all other dogs that are secured in their homes/gardens.

May not necessarily be "a taste for blood" argument though. Its a dog that's shown it will attack livestock which not all dogs will do.

So in that case it more than likely will happen again if the dog gets the chance.

mikom

puddles22 wrote: »

Ok I was packing the car today next thing I know the dog had opened the front door of the house herself and away she bolted, I took after her in car no luck she is very very fast, anyhow got a phone call a few minutes later saying my dog ess in a field and had killed a lamb, this to me was one of those unlucky incidents,I consider myself very responsible when it comes to my dog, she is never off lead outside, doors are locked when she is inside because I know she likes to open them, this all happened in a couple of seconds, I phoned the sheep owner immediately, apologised offered to pay for the lamb, conversation started ok but then he started getting a bit over heated, threatening to do something about the dog,the thing is he lets his sheep roam everywhere, they go through people's garden, they trample and **** everywhere, I know that the land the lamb was killed on wasn't his and the sheep had just roamed on to it, I get he's pissed but does he not have a responsibility to control his livestock to?

What breed of dog, puddles22?

borderlinemeath

Artful_Badger wrote: »

May not necessarily be "a taste for blood" argument though. Its a dog that's shown it will attack livestock which not all dogs will do.

So in that case it more than likely will happen again if the dog gets the chance.

You're right in that not all dogs will attack, but even if a dog doesn't attack it has the potential to worry ewes to abort. That is always a huge risk and a farmer doesn't have to have a dog attacking it's sheep to shoot it, it only needs to be caught worrying them.

Artful_Badger

borderlinemeath wrote: »

You're right in that not all dogs will attack, but even if a dog doesn't attack it has the potential to worry ewes to abort. That is always a huge risk and a farmer doesn't have to have a dog attacking it's sheep to shoot it, it only needs to be caught worrying them.

True enough but I think the point at hand here is in relation to dogs that attack. As far as that goes it'll more than likely attack again if it gets an opportunity.

The only real way to make sure it doesnt is put the dog down. Promises not to let it happen again wouldnt put many farmers minds at ease although I'm sure plenty wouldnt push to have someone's pet put down.

Gringo180

puddles22 wrote: »

Ok I was packing the car today next thing I know the dog had opened the front door of the house herself and away she bolted, I took after her in car no luck she is very very fast, anyhow got a phone call a few minutes later saying my dog ess in a field and had killed a lamb, this to me was one of those unlucky incidents,I consider myself very responsible when it comes to my dog, she is never off lead outside, doors are locked when she is inside because I know she likes to open them, this all happened in a couple of seconds, I phoned the sheep owner immediately, apologised offered to pay for the lamb, conversation started ok but then he started getting a bit over heated, threatening to do something about the dog,the thing is he lets his sheep roam everywhere, they go through people's garden, they trample and **** everywhere, I know that the land the lamb was killed on wasn't his and the sheep had just roamed on to it, I get he's pissed but does he not have a responsibility to control his livestock to?

<snip>

freedominacup

I'm sorry puddles but the dog should be dead by now. From the op I'm assuming that we're talking about a fairly large young dog in the whole of his health due to the speed at which the incident took place and the description of him as having the deal lamb in his mouth. No sheep farmer could rest easy with that animal still in the vicinity and I would not be surprised if the farmer in question pursued this. The dead lamb is the least of his (potential) losses, abortions, mis-mothering, prolapsed uterus, substantial vet bills for dealing with same etc are likely to cost him far more than the dead lamb you saw. If he has no real further problems and the dog has been put down he may well let it slide but if the dog is still kicking and he's getting real bother over the rest of the lambing season you could find yourself with an angry neighbour with an actionable case, some very damning arguments to show your lack of responsibility before and after the incident and a substsantial damages claim against you.

Gringo180

What breed of dog was it?

puddles22

Gringo180 wrote: »

What breed of dog was it?

Husky

lollsangel

freedominacup wrote: »

I'm sorry puddles but the dog should be dead by now. From the op I'm assuming that we're talking about a fairly large young dog in the whole of his health due to the speed at which the incident took place and the description of him as having the deal lamb in his mouth. No sheep farmer could rest easy with that animal still in the vicinity and I would not be surprised if the farmer in question pursued this. The dead lamb is the least of his (potential) losses, abortions, mis-mothering, prolapsed uterus, substantial vet bills for dealing with same etc are likely to cost him far more than the dead lamb you saw. If he has no real further problems and the dog has been put down he may well let it slide but if the dog is still kicking and he's getting real bother over the rest of the lambing season you could find yourself with an angry neighbour with an actionable case, some very damning arguments to show your lack of responsibility before and after the incident and a substsantial damages claim against you.

You'd think though if he was that worried, his lambs wouldn't be straying, wouldn't you? My dogs have rarely escaped, and we're extra careful during lambing season, as there is 2 lamb farmers near enough to me. To all those saying the dog should be put down bcos he killed a stray lamb, does that mean I should beheld responsible should I hit a sheep on the road?

anniehoo

Gringo180 banned from the forum for their comment above.There is zero tolerance of comments relating to violence towards animals in this forum and any further comments like this will be dealt with similarly.

Do not reply to this post.

puddles22

freedominacup wrote: »

I'm sorry puddles but the dog should be dead by now. From the op I'm assuming that we're talking about a fairly large young dog in the whole of his health due to the speed at which the incident took place and the description of him as having the deal lamb in his mouth. No sheep farmer could rest easy with that animal still in the vicinity and I would not be surprised if the farmer in question pursued this. The dead lamb is the least of his (potential) losses, abortions, mis-mothering, prolapsed uterus, substantial vet bills for dealing with same etc are likely to cost him far more than the dead lamb you saw. If he has no real further problems and the dog has been put down he may well let it slide but if the dog is still kicking and he's getting real bother over the rest of the lambing season you could find yourself with an angry neighbour with an actionable case, some very damning arguments to show your lack of responsibility before and after the incident and a substsantial damages claim against you.

My lack of responsibility before the incident? Elaborate please

puddles22

freedominacup wrote: »

I'm sorry puddles but the dog should be dead by now. From the op I'm assuming that we're talking about a fairly large young dog in the whole of his health due to the speed at which the incident took place and the description of him as having the deal lamb in his mouth. No sheep farmer could rest easy with that animal still in the vicinity and I would not be surprised if the farmer in question pursued this. The dead lamb is the least of his (potential) losses, abortions, mis-mothering, prolapsed uterus, substantial vet bills for dealing with same etc are likely to cost him far more than the dead lamb you saw. If he has no real further problems and the dog has been put down he may well let it slide but if the dog is still kicking and he's getting real bother over the rest of the lambing season you could find yourself with an angry neighbour with an actionable case, some very damning arguments to show your lack of responsibility before and after the incident and a substsantial damages claim against you.

My lack of responsibility before the incident? Elaborate please

Micky Dolenz

lollsangel wrote: »

You'd think though if he was that worried, his lambs wouldn't be straying, wouldn't you? My dogs have rarely escaped, and we're extra careful during lambing season, as there is 2 lamb farmers near enough to me. To all those saying the dog should be put down bcos he killed a stray lamb, does that mean I should beheld responsible should I hit a sheep on the road?

Did you intentionally hit the sheep?

It's an unfortunate incident OP, fair play for taking responsibility straight away.

Gosub

lollsangel wrote: »

You'd think though if he was that worried, his lambs wouldn't be straying, wouldn't you? My dogs have rarely escaped, and we're extra careful during lambing season, as there is 2 lamb farmers near enough to me. To all those saying the dog should be put down bcos he killed a stray lamb, does that mean I should beheld responsible should I hit a sheep on the road?

Yes, in the same way that you'd be responsible if you hit a child on the road.

Micky Dolenz

Gosub wrote: »

Yes, in the same way that you'd be responsible if you hit a child on the road.

Not sure about that. Not to go off topic, but a guy I know hit a cow that was on the road on his motorbike one night and the farmer was liable.

biddy2013

kristian12 wrote: »

Out of curiosity what standing would this insistence have in law?

OP as others have said escape proof your house and garden, repeat your offer of compensation once tempers have calmed realising the farmer has every reason to have been annoyed.

under law if a dog is chasing cattle or sheep it can be shot on sight. Had trouble before with a neighbours dog, we went to dog warden and guards and told neighbour dog would be shot next time he was chasing my cattle, we did this . Recently he bought another dog which is no better than the other one he had. I can not understand how people do not and can not control their dogs.

dharma200

pretty much the same as the farmers who can't control their sheep cattle and horses, round my way anyway......
anyone advocating the death of a family pet dog due to one unfortunate event, and going on about the taste of blood and all that, i mean really.........
The unfortunate lamb was probably going to be eaten. the dog will be under control, the lamb paid for, probably more than market value... the owner sorry... what do people want her/him to do, stand at the side of a road with a sign round they neck....

The dog couldn't have been shot by the farmer as the sheep were not on the farmers land.. anything after that is just threats.

I am sure the dog will be kept under better control, i wish the same could be said round my way on farmers cattle and horses, who are forever getting out, causing hazards on the roads..... one lamb dead.... thats it... unfortunate but really......

lollsangel

Gosub wrote: »

Yes, in the same way that you'd be responsible if you hit a child on the road.

Big difference between a child and a sheep! In fact the farmer should be held responsible

dharma200

If you hit an animal on the road, the owner of the animal is liable for any damage to your car.

biddy2013

dharma200 wrote: »

pretty much the same as the farmers who can't control their sheep cattle and horses, round my way anyway......
anyone advocating the death of a family pet dog due to one unfortunate event, and going on about the taste of blood and all that, i mean really.........
The unfortunate lamb was probably going to be eaten. the dog will be under control, the lamb paid for, probably more than market value... the owner sorry... what do people want her/him to do, stand at the side of a road with a sign round they neck....

The dog couldn't have been shot by the farmer as the sheep were not on the farmers land.. anything after that is just threats.

I am sure the dog will be kept under better control, i wish the same could be said round my way on farmers cattle and horses, who are forever getting out, causing hazards on the roads..... one lamb dead.... thats it... unfortunate but really......

how does the op know the farmer in question doesnt own the land or have it rented and what has it got to do with the lamb being killed?

lollsangel

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Did you intentionally hit the sheep?

It's an unfortunate incident OP, fair play for taking responsibility straight away.

God no, have had a few close misses in the dark bcos some irresponsible farmers dont keep their stock under control btw case I was making is the farmer has responsiblity too to keep his livestock under control.

dharma200

edited, wrong thread

biddy2013

lollsangel wrote: »

Big difference between a child and a sheep! In fact the farmer should be held responsible

heres the point ... if a dog is chasing sheep or cattle you can shoot on sight -afaik it doesnt matter whose land it is on, but i will stand corrected on that-if a dog is chasing/attacking a child you can not shoot it. Garda told me that:eek:

dharma200

biddy2013 wrote: »

how does the op know the farmer in question doesnt own the land or have it rented and what has it got to do with the lamb being killed?

I don't know why don't you ask him/her?

dharma200

biddy2013 wrote: »

heres the point ... if a dog is chasing sheep or cattle you can shoot on sight if a dog is chasing/attacking a child you can not shoot it. Garda told me that:eek:

lol

Red Crow

It's as much you're responsibility to control your dog as it's the farmers responsibility to not let his sheep stray off his land. I'd offer to pay for the lamb but do farmers offer to pay for the thousands of damage sheep cause to people's flowers and land? No.

biddy2013

Red Crow wrote: »

It's as much you're responsibility to control your dog as it's the farmers responsibility to not let his sheep stray off his land. I'd offer to pay for the lamb but do farmers offer to pay for the thousands of damage sheep cause to people's flowers and land? No.

i pay for any damage caused by my cattle if they break out , which tbh is very very rare

dharma200

it only takes once, as the op has seen, rare isn't good enough if my car hits one of your cattle and causes a fatality....