Need extra cash...an idea

newfrontier · 14-03-2014 5:54pm #1

Hi all just want some feedback on an idea I have..struggling due to all the cut backs and thought what options are available for extra income..and so it begins

I met a colleague who has just written a book for G&M and it is due to be published next week. I have a book in progress but was told ; I should adapt it to a different market (as I have targeted the wrong market sector). Now I am thinking...surely the new changes will have an upside they will require new books...and someone has got to do it..

So the idea is to form a support club for teachers to write books for the new awards. Why the group? to help each other in the book writing process? Look for co-authors, share advice and help each other in the process!

Questions I have that maybe you can help with...
1. Is this a crowded market place?
2. Is there any merit/interest in the idea?
3. What tips/advice do you have on the idea?
4. Any one who has been there done that...got any advice to offer future authors?

Happy St Patricks DAY..enjoy the break

whiteandlight · 14-03-2014 6:00pm

newfrontier wrote: »

Hi all just want some feedback on an idea I have..struggling due to all the cut backs and thought what options are available for extra income.And so it begins

I met a colleague who has just written a book for G&M and it is due to be published next week. I have a book in progress but was told it is in the wrong market sector. Now I am thinking...surely the new changes will have an upside they will require new books...and someone has got to do it..

So the idea is to form a support club for teachers to write books for the new awards. Why the group? to help each other in the book writing process? Look for co-authors, share advice and help each other in the process!

Questions I have that maybe you can help with...
1. Is this a crowded market place?
2. Is there any merit/interest in the idea?
3. What tips/advice do you have if any?
3. Any one who has been there done that...got any advice to offer?

Happy StPatricks DAY..enjoy the break

I spent last summer writing but voluntarily and not for profit.

1. Is this a crowded market place?
I would assume it depends on your subject. Music for example there is only one Leaving Cert book but Maths has multiple publishers and authors already published. It would also depend on the current feeling about the book, if everyone is already happy with the one book out there then you are fighting a losing battle.
2. Is there any merit/interest in the idea?
I had a similar idea but again I was looking at it from a not for profit perspective. A support group requires a lot of motivation on the part of the participants. Everyone is pretty stressed/busy in school. I would imagine that this would need to be a holidays based idea really.
3. What tips/advice do you have if any? Any one who has been there done that...got any advice to offer?
Copyright, Copyright and Copyright. Then platform; are you printing/creating an app/posting to the internet/selling a PDF? Structure; lay the whole book out first before you start writing, otherwise you can end up with a very disjointed book. Read everything twice. Try and use portions of it in class, its only then you really start picking up any issues.

rainbowtrout · 14-03-2014 6:09pm

newfrontier wrote: »

Hi all just want some feedback on an idea I have..struggling due to all the cut backs and thought what options are available for extra income.And so it begins

I met a colleague who has just written a book for G&M and it is due to be published next week. I have a book in progress but was told it is in the wrong market sector. Now I am thinking...surely the new changes will have an upside they will require new books...and someone has got to do it..

So the idea is to form a support club for teachers to write books for the new awards. Why the group? to help each other in the book writing process? Look for co-authors, share advice and help each other in the process!

Questions I have that maybe you can help with...
1. Is this a crowded market place?
2. Is there any merit/interest in the idea?
3. What tips/advice do you have on the idea?
3. Any one who has been there done that...got any advice to offer future authors?

Happy St Patricks DAY..enjoy the break

Publishing companies will also have considered this and been making plans no doubt.

The big question is: do you want to do this for profit or not? If not, fire ahead, copyright will be your biggest issue. If you want to do it for profit you are going up against large well established publishing companies and you will find it difficult. Also if it is for profit, the larger your group of teachers the more you have to split that profit. Ever noticed that textbooks are rarely written by more than two people?

Disclaimer: I have two textbooks published. The regulars around here know my subject area.

My experience: don't give up the day job. There are easier ways to make money, but the experience has been great as well as seeing my name on the cover of a book and that other schools are using what I wrote.

newfrontier · 14-03-2014 6:21pm

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I spent last summer writing but voluntarily and not for profit.

1. Is this a crowded market place?
I would assume it depends on your subject. Music for example there is only one Leaving Cert book but Maths has multiple publishers and authors already published. It would also depend on the current feeling about the book, if everyone is already happy with the one book out there then you are fighting a losing battle.
2. Is there any merit/interest in the idea?
I had a similar idea but again I was looking at it from a not for profit perspective. A support group requires a lot of motivation on the part of the participants. Everyone is pretty stressed/busy in school. I would imagine that this would need to be a holidays based idea really.
3. What tips/advice do you have if any? Any one who has been there done that...got any advice to offer?
Copyright, Copyright and Copyright. Then platform; are you printing/creating an app/posting to the internet/selling a PDF? Structure; lay the whole book out first before you start writing, otherwise you can end up with a very disjointed book. Read everything twice. Try and use portions of it in class, its only then you really start picking up any issues.

Thanks for the good advice Musicmental85 a great start to the thread...will certainly bear it in mind.. just one quick question did you self publish a digital book or did you go the old paper format with a publisher? Can you offer guidance as to why?

I think digital self publishing would be less attractive financially at the moment. But this will change over time as digital publishing grows...(so the group in time could become a digital publisher!!! as this needs some level of expertise especially if its an app based product).

whiteandlight · 14-03-2014 6:25pm

I self published four ibooks over the summer. Our first years have Ipads. I wasn't happy with any of the books on offer so I wrote my own. They're all available for free on the app store

It is enormously time consuming and I did lose motivation/will to live at times but ultimately it was a great experience and its amazing to be able to teach from your own material. And hilarious at time when you realise that what you have just spoken without reading was already on the page rofl.

newfrontier · 14-03-2014 7:37pm

Great to see 2 authors from both areas share their experience.
I wonder do the 3 big book publishers offer the same deal to all their authors?

Do they approach the teachers who have written the old books to write the new books?

rainbowtrout · 14-03-2014 8:38pm

newfrontier wrote: »

Great to see 2 authors from both areas share their experience.
I wonder do the 3 big book publishers offer the same deal to all their authors?

I would say the deals are fairly similar given the margins of profit in publishing.

newfrontier wrote: »

Do they approach the teachers who have written the old books to write the new books?

Again I would say most likely if they have been happy with the work of the author(s) on previous publications, i.e. based on sales, ease of working with the author and feedback from teachers on the books.

It makes sense that if you have say a maths book written by an author and it has been a successful publication (based on the factors above) that you get that author to write the next book. E.g.: I would imagine if you look at the project maths books as there were a lot of different strands and supplements that the authors of those books are the same as the authors of the books that were available before project maths.

Everyone who has written a book has to have a first time and I know there were things I didn't consider when I wrote (co-authored) my first one, but that person knows what they are letting themselves in for when they agreed to write a new book. That's a far safer bet for a publishing company than a new and unknown author, if the established author has been successful.

Having said that, there is always room for new authors especially if they can improve on what's out there. That's where I started.

minipink · 15-03-2014 7:35pm

I wrote for one of the main primary publishers, it can be a totally frustrating experience. It took 2 years to agree on the approach and the books still aren't fully finished. The work time - money comparison for me anyway is not really worth it. Maybe other publishers are easier to work with though.

evolving_doors · 16-03-2014 12:32am

Anyone consider the self publishing route! If I'm not mistaken there are two music teachers who have books self published. No freebies, expensive enough, promoted through the subject association and their own web store. The books were also sold at the annual subject conference.I think they even offer their own mocks and correcting service also.
I think compared to other teachers it is the USP you need to chase teather than just being 'another textbook'.

I'm not affiliated with the teachers in any way btw but have purchased the books through their own website. I thought it was a novel enough approach and the website platform offered a lot by way of other resources.

prancer · 16-03-2014 9:32am

I've always been interested in writing a book but just never took the time. My subjects though are Geography and Irish so there's a good bit already out there but with Geography, there is always room for more scope. I think once I looked at the market that was there for the subjects, I decided not to or to maybe write one for the new junior cert.

A friend of mine with the same subjects as me has started selling her Powerpoints online and writing and correcting mock papers herself. she seems to be doing pretty well and is branching out into making her own resources for classes too.

Suppose you could always go that way.

spurious · 16-03-2014 1:36pm

There is always room in the market for books aimed at those who struggle with school. The book companies more or less ignore this sector and the teachers who teach them soldier on with home made resources.

whiteandlight · 16-03-2014 1:39pm

I would also flag that in the governments move towards the British system I wouldn't be surprised to see books on their hit list next, it's a hugely controversial issue with parents. In England many schools create their own books reducing the costs for parents significantly. If the government can reduce costs for parents in any way it's a slam dunk for them.

And yes I know the publishers are big lobbies but parents are a big group of voters who's pockets are very tight of late

whiteandlight · 16-03-2014 2:14pm

Oh and one thing from someone who has done this for students at no cost. There is nothing (except perhaps correcting) that will make you more aware of what and how you teach than writing. Even if you can't get it published there is no reason not to write and I would encourage anyone to do it-its a great experience albeit a busy one!

I've found that my prep is significantly lower this year because my books are exactly the way I want to do the work already. The exercises are my own ideas and activities are appropriate and are usually things I've tried and tested before. Best of all there is no hassle if I want to change something for the future, the book is a living entity just like our classes. If I find something I want to add in, I do. If I find something didn't work at all I can consider changing it (obviously taking into account that each class is different).

cb7 · 18-03-2014 9:53am

What about grinds - there is a lot of students getting them

Kazbah · 19-03-2014 6:19pm

Interesting thread :-)

Does anyone have any contacts for people who are interested in writing a textbook. I'm interested in developing something for LCA which I think is a neglected area. Anyone who did it for profit like to share/PM what ballpark figure they made from the venture?

rainbowtrout · 19-03-2014 6:45pm

Kazbah wrote: »

Interesting thread :-)

Does anyone have any contacts for people who are interested in writing a textbook. I'm interested in developing something for LCA which I think is a neglected area. Anyone who did it for profit like to share/PM what ballpark figure they made from the venture?

Do you mean people who published independently or with publishing companies?

It will depend on lots of factors but primarily how many people are doing your subject, what other books are available for that subject, size of book - a big A4 size leaving cert text costs in the region of €35. So your cut will depend on all those factors. You also have to pay tax on it

Kazbah · 19-03-2014 6:50pm

I'd consider either but my preference would be to have the support of a publisher.

rainbowtrout · 19-03-2014 7:06pm

Kazbah wrote: »

I'd consider either but my preference would be to have the support of a publisher.

Well in those terms it meant that things could be done that I couldn't have done on my own, e.g. access to photo libraries, colour etc.

If you want more info feel free to PM.

spurious · 19-03-2014 7:45pm

Kazbah wrote: »

Interesting thread :-)

Does anyone have any contacts for people who are interested in writing a textbook. I'm interested in developing something for LCA which I think is a neglected area. Anyone who did it for profit like to share/PM what ballpark figure they made from the venture?

No idea on the money end of things, but I'd check (in as far as you can) what the DES's plans for LCA are. The support seems to be diminishing rapidly. Nobody seems to be updating terribly outdated Key Assignments. It's like it was developed and then just left there. Personally, I think they could have made something really good out of the LCA, but nobody in any position of power seemed/seems to give a damn about it.

MrJones1973 · 24-03-2014 1:00pm

Bad idea-unless you have a few teachers you personally know and can count on. See How your book goes. Can be cheeky and ask. what the royalty rate is?s

newfrontier · 06-04-2014 7:55pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Bad idea-unless you have a few teachers you personally know and can count on. See How your book goes. Can be cheeky and ask. what the royalty rate is?s

After reviewing the comments here and reflecting on the points, 3 things jump out from the discussion.

1) paper is dead and we really need a better solution!.
2) the payment model sucks!!!! If you are developing material/resources you need a better payment model..if you develop good content and its used you get paid.
3) Devices in the classroom are growing now is the time to get on board and use it to help you.

Now this then leads to a question what is next step?
Could a cloud platform run by teachers for teachers be the answer?
Would it work? Could it work? I can hear the nay sayers saying no its too early, it would never work ......but I have heard of a new association of teachers recently formed . Who believe sharing resources is a great idea. So they are willing to give it a try? Now that is one group but it is a group of IT teachers . But I need to know would this work for a larger teaching group?
I need to know is it worth developing?

So if there was a solution developed would you try IT?
Now I will await comments and feedback before I bring it any further...
I just need to ask who else would give it a try?

So in a nutshell what I am proposing is a cloud platform run by teachers for teachers where you produce content and if its good and used you get a payment. (the payment part can be discussed later). What are your thoughts, this could be an additional revenue stream that is there for you and is not quite as painful as writing a classsroom text.

I will kick it off by saying I think it is worth investigating..

whiteandlight · 06-04-2014 8:13pm

You mean like teacherspayteachers.com?

I'm not a nay sayer by any means but three issues I foresee:
1. Most people do not want to pay for resources
2. TES which has a massive library of free resources already
3. People like me who believe that books for students should be free or available at a minimum cost to students.

Disclaimer: I have published ibooks and have just pulled one from the ibook store because I'm going to start charging for it. It'll only be a couple of euro tho!

On the plus side I love to see discussion of resources. There is so much potential to lighten your workload as a teacher and to tailer materials to your class group it can only be to the benefit of you personally

newfrontier · 06-04-2014 9:04pm

Musicmental85 wrote: »

You mean like teacherspayteachers.com?

I'm not a nay sayer by any means but three issues I foresee:
1. Most people do not want to pay for resources
2. TES which has a massive library of free resources already
3. People like me who believe that books for students should be free or available at a minimum cost to students.

Disclaimer: I have published ibooks and have just pulled one from the ibook store because I'm going to start charging for it. It'll only be a couple of euro tho!

On the plus side I love to see discussion of resources. There is so much potential to lighten your workload as a teacher and to tailer materials to your class group it can only be to the benefit of you personally

Thanks for the link it is a Great site , though geared for the american market with 47,000,000 paid out . Would it work for the irish secondary school market?

I think your right what is the best way to share resources?

rainbowtrout · 06-04-2014 9:36pm

newfrontier wrote: »

After reviewing the comments here and reflecting on the points, 3 things jump out from the discussion.

1) paper is dead and we really need a better solution!.
2) the payment model sucks!!!! If you are developing material/resources you need a better payment model..if you develop good content and its used you get paid.
3) Devices in the classroom are growing now is the time to get on board and use it to help you.

Now this then leads to a question what is next step?
Could a cloud platform run by teachers for teachers be the answer?
Would it work? Could it work? I can hear the nay sayers saying no its too early, it would never work ......but I have heard of a new association of teachers recently formed . Who believe sharing resources is a great idea. So they are willing to give it a try? Now that is one group but it is a group of IT teachers . But I need to know would this work for a larger teaching group?
I need to know is it worth developing?

So if there was a solution developed would you try IT?
Now I will await comments and feedback before I bring it any further...
I just need to ask who else would give it a try?

So in a nutshell what I am proposing is a cloud platform run by teachers for teachers where you produce content and if its good and used you get a payment. (the payment part can be discussed later). What are your thoughts, this could be an additional revenue stream that is there for you and is not quite as painful as writing a classsroom text.

I will kick it off by saying I think it is worth investigating..

I don't understand where this comment comes from. Nobody said it. Also considering the vast majority of what is available for ipad/e-reader/kindle etc, is the paperback book in digital format, I honestly don't see the difference currently in the student having the book in digital format, if they they are reading the same thing as they would if they had the physical book.

In response to the second point. I'm fine with the way I get paid. There are so many resources, photos, graphic artists etc that I wouldn't have access to without the backing of a publisher. It allowed me and my co-author to have the books we wrote published to the standard we wanted. Some subjects perhaps lend themselves to less visual texts and have less requirements for specific diagrams (maths for example).

As for writing... it's painful whichever way you do it. The material has to be written one way or another. From the time we agreed to write the book, we wrote from scratch and had the whole thing written in 4 months. It was heavy going. There were a few months after that where proof reading was done, design decisions, altering diagrams etc. We published 9 months after agreeing terms. Not all books take years to write.

As for an online platform for teachers to provide resources, there probably is a market for it, I think until it becomes more mainstream that teachers will continue to use free resources unless the ones that are available are tailored to what they are teaching. Music has been mentioned as an area where available texts aren't great. Perhaps an online platfrom is more suited to niche subjects where resources aren't currently available and publishers aren't going to publish because there isn't a great return for them.

KrustyBurger · 07-04-2014 6:23pm

Paper isn't dead, far from it. It also has a lot to offer compared with ebooks etc.

Authors normally get 10% of the retail price of the book. The bookshop get about 50% (includes vat etc) and the publisher 40% (from which they pay for publishing, marketing etc).

teacherpayteachers is a great idea and from what I've seen has created some very wealthy teachers. I don't know if there's any point in reinventing the wheel here though as the market just for Ireland for a similar site is too small imo. I'd try to develop material for the American market (check out the common core standards etc).

Need extra cash...an idea

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