BMW's fall from grace?

Stallingrad

I've always had a soft spot for BMW but watching over the last few years I'm beggining to wonder if the are a force in decline. I'm sure someone will be along to show illustrate sales growth but to my eyes the 5 is looking dated already, as is the 2 year old 3 series which is still a relative rare sight on the roads. The 7 is bland and was never a force, the 8 is long, heavy, poorly packages and underwhelming by all accounts, the whole X range bar the X5 seem average and ugly. Now we have 2 series, 4 series and various hatchbacks plus a FWD on the way. Like all marques they are niche hunting but unlike Audi or Mercedes they don't seem to be as convincing in execution.

The i3 and i8 are both commendable and brave, the i8 shows off BMW's engineering prowess better than any previous car. But both as yet unproven technologically and commercially.

We can argue about styling all day but the current path seems to be a dead end with derivative styling all through the range. I don't know where they are going with it, even the new 7 concept doesn't look a viable future path to me. Say what you will about Bangle but his cars had vision, the current crop seem to be pointing no-where.

Mercedes meanwhile are re-inventing interiors and desirability while equaling BMW driving manners and showing their supremacy in the S-class, the C will be a sure fire hit trading in S-class design cues. The C Class is perceived as downscaled S class whereas the 7 series always comes across as a scaled up 3 series. Audi continue to build the brand with models that are increasingly desirable and better to drive than before.

It's really hard to see what BMW now offers that others don't do as well or better.

HandsomeDan

I have to say the new c class interior does make the f30 look a little plain.

I've not driven an f30, but do lurve my e90.

It's the usual case of the underdog having to try harder while the market leader becomes complacent.

The real sham brand is Audi, imo.

Tea 1000

Stallingrad wrote: »

I've always had a soft spot for BMW but watching over the last few years I'm beggining to wonder if the are a force in decline. I'm sure someone will be along to show illustrate sales growth but to my eyes the 5 is looking dated already, as is the 2 year old 3 series which is still a relative rare sight on the roads. The 7 is bland and was never a force, the 8 is long, heavy, poorly packages and underwhelming by all accounts, the whole X range bar the X5 seem average and ugly. Now we have 2 series, 4 series and various hatchbacks plus a FWD on the way. Like all marques they are niche hunting but unlike Audi or Mercedes they don't seem to be as convincing in execution.

The 8? I assume you mean the 6. It's actually a very decent car.
The X range I hate, but that's because I hate all that ilk. But to be fair, they're no worse than the Q's from Audi, in some cases better.
I agree with the splitting the hairs to form as many different cars as possible, flooding the market with options, but Audi are doing the same.
I think the 5 is a bit unexciting looking, but I don't think an M-Sport 5 with nice alloys is dated. The basic 5 with the standard alloys does look boring, but you can't blame BMW for the buyers options!
The 7 is completely underwhelming though. The S-Class is far superior.

Stallingrad wrote: »

The i3 and i8 are both commendable and brave, the i8 shows off BMW's engineering prowess better than any previous car. But both as yet unproven technologically and commercially.

You can't knock BMW because they're bringing something to the market that's unproven. You have to give them credit that they're trying to be the ones to proove the technology. If they fail then you may criticise, but for now this point can only be used as a plus.

Stallingrad wrote: »

We can argue about styling all day but the current path seems to be a dead end with derivative styling all through the range. I don't know where they are going with it, even the new 7 concept doesn't look a viable future path to me. Say what you will about Bangle but his cars had vision, the current crop seem to be pointing no-where.

Maybe it needs a general refresh alright, but Merc and Audi and VW are all trying to have one generic look unique to the marque that spreads from bottom to top of the range. Which one is sucessful and which isn't is somewhat subjective, but maybe BMW do need a refresh.

Stallingrad wrote: »

Mercedes meanwhile are re-inventing interiors and desirability while equaling BMW driving manners and showing their supremacy in the S-class, the C will be a sure fire hit trading in S-class design cues. The C Class is perceived as downscaled S class whereas the 7 series always comes across as a scaled up 3 series. Audi continue to build the brand with models that are increasingly desirable and better to drive than before.

It's really hard to see what BMW now offers that others don't do as well or better.

The Merc C-Class in it's outgoing guise was an under-rated car, and the new one looks to be excellent. To be fair, the F30 is also an excellent car though. I would say that Audi is the one coming from behind here. The current A6 is finally the car it needs to be, but the last one was a bit off the mark. Maybe the current A6 and E-Class are a little better on balance than the 5, but there isn't that much in it. The F30 and new C-Class are the benchmarks of that group, but Merc own the top with the S-Class.
Audi's models are better to drive than before because they were too far behind in that area. BMW were the benchmark, and it's hard to keep improving on handling when you're the one the rest are trying to match. But in general, maybe they're sliding off the perch. Maybe the E36 and E34 were the proper benchmarks, but maybe also neither of those would hack it in todays world.

noelf

I agree with you 100% I think Jaguar is going to be on a winner here when It's new three series model arrives to market the xe built out of aluminum and new engines it should show up bmw/audi/mercedes

Tea 1000

HandsomeDan wrote: »

I have to say the new c class interior does make the f30 look a little plain.

I've not driven an f30, but do lurve my e90.

It's the usual case of the underdog having to try harder while the market leader becomes complacent.

The real sham brand is Audi, imo.

The F30 is a little bland comapred to the W205, but it's a lot better than the E90 which I always thought was very bland. E46 too. There's a massive leap from an E90 to an E60 in terms of interior, where as an A4 to an A6 is more of a progressive hop.

Stallingrad

Tea 1000 wrote: »

You can't knock BMW because they're bringing something to the market that's unproven. You have to give them credit that they're trying to be the ones to proove the technology. If they fail then you may criticise, but for now this point can only be used as a plus.

I agree, I wasn't knocking them for the i range, I think they are great cars and show what BMW is capable of, but this flair is not reflected elsewhere in the range.

noelf

noelf wrote: »

I agree with you 100% I think Jaguar is going to be on a winner here when It's new three series model arrives to market the xe built out of aluminum and new engines it should show up bmw/audi/mercedes

The Jaguar xe....

Sobanek

I love the 2 Series and the 6 Series Gran Coupe.
The new X5 is fugly in my opinion and so is the i3.
The i8 is pretty cool though.
The rest is just meh.

b318isp

To a degree, BMW have always had a number of ho-hum models, and some right crackers. There are some interesting cars in the range - the 123d, 335i, 4 series, 1M, i8 come to mind, but in the main the 1, 3, 5 and X series have merged into the background.

I'd fear that they may be a victim of their own success eventually. There are so many BMWs on the road these days that they have lost that magic of rarity.

The other factor is that FWD cars nowadays are generally well balanced, so the handling is not the bonus it was, say, in the 1980s and 90s. Some of the lower powered models just don't drive in any special way, their merit is mainly in their quality and image.

I'd really love BMW to develop a competitor to the Toyota GT86, perhaps on the 2 series platform. This is where their heart was in the days of the 2002, E30, etc., but it is by-and-large long gone.

Ooooh, and bring back Bangle....

H3llR4iser

To be fully honest, I personally hardly ever liked the looks of any BMW; The older models designs were clunky, boxy and inelegant acquiring an aura of "outdated" not long after they entered the market. Even the fan-favourite E46 looks like a car 10 years older than it really is.

The E90 is an exception - I hated it the moment I first saw it (it was one of the first BMWs penned by Chris Bangle, if I recall correctly), but it grew on me to the point that I even considered buying one back in October. It's also one of the few Bavarians that aged gracefully, as it still looks current. The interiors, however, are those of a much lower class car.

The F30 is frankly a big step backwards - and the slow sales show it; It's much more anonymous than the E90 and the E46, as a matter of fact it can look worryingly like a slightly squashed Volvo S80 from some angles:(

Marty McFly

To be honest I never used to be a fan of BMW for a long time until I went looking for my current car they were the only brand that ticked all the boxes for what I was looking for and I love me e90.

I do agree though that Mercedes are making some fantastic looking cars these days and there interiors style wise do seem to be a step ahead of BMW imo.

Audi though I couldn't disagree more at one stage I did love them but they have become so generic across the board looks wise, engine options aren't as spread out as the BMW when I was looking it was either a 2.0 litre petrol or 4.2 with nothing in between maybe the odd 2.4 but even that wasn't exactly boasting a lot of power. There interiors I find very bland and boring behind BMW and way behind Mercedes.

I do love some of the new Jaguars coming out though and the newer Volvos and Lexus seem to be getting more adventurous style wise as well.

mickdw

It is true that Jaguar can make LEAPS and bounds right now if they play it right.
BMWs have zero presence now unless you really go for top end stuff. Audi are not particularly exciting either. Mercedes do still have presence with anything from a well speced E CLass upwards looking decent and even the new C Class is decent.
Jaguar have a master piece in the new XJ imo, The XF is popular and decent by all accounts. They are certainly now offering a very tempting alternative to the germans right now.
Its pretty sad now that if you are looking for something reasonably special from the germans (Secondhand), you need to look outside of Ireland or look at the S Class, 7 Series or A8 because everything else is around 2L diesel.

Marty McFly

mickdw wrote: »

It is true that Jaguar can make LEAPS and bounds right now if they play it right.
BMWs have zero presence now unless you really go for top end stuff. Audi are not particularly exciting either. Mercedes do still have presence with anything from a well speced E CLass upwards looking decent and even the new C Class is decent.
Jaguar have a master piece in the new XJ imo, The XF is popular and decent by all accounts. They are certainly now offering a very tempting alternative to the germans right now.
Its pretty sad now that if you are looking for something reasonably special from the germans (Secondhand), you need to look outside of Ireland or look at the S Class, 7 Series or A8 because everything else is around 2L diesel.

Now that bits just not true at all they mightn't be as common as the 2.0l diesel but can still be got and at a lot cheaper than the diesel equivalent.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/results?searchsource=finder&nParam=4294946359&channel=CARS#nParam%3D4294946359%252B200590%252B4294911129%252B4294946287%252B102455%252B200406%252B200439%26sortby%3DMake%7C0%26channel%3DCARS%26currency%3DEUROS%26searchResultsView%3DTHUMBNAIL%26maxrows%3D30%26page%3D9

mickdw

I didnt say it but I was thinking of my own situation and looking at a 3 year old car (or so) which wipes out alot of what you have linked to apart from the CLS Mercedes which is interesting as that is one of the models that was offered with larger diesel and petrol options and not a 2.0 diesel. That kind of proves my point albeit not an S Class but I would place it above E Class level.

ofcork

That jag xe just looks like an xf and an xj for that matter.

mooseknunkle

BMW should've stopped making cars after the e39 ,nothing they have done since then has matched it

Marty McFly

mickdw wrote: »

I didnt say it but I was thinking of my own situation and looking at a 3 year old car (or so) which wipes out alot of what you have linked to apart from the CLS Mercedes which is interesting as that is one of the models that was offered with larger diesel and petrol options and not a 2.0 diesel. That kind of proves my point albeit not an S Class but I would place it above E Class level.

Ah yea if you're looking for a a 3 yr old car with decent petrol engines then they are very limited and will take some patience to find over here, but then again that not just limited to German models that's across the board no one has been buying petrol apart from the very odd few.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/results?searchsource=finder&nParam=4294946359&channel=CARS#nParam%3D4294946359%252B200590%252B4294911129%252B4294946287%252B102455%252B200406%252B200439%26sortby%3DMake%7C0%26channel%3DCARS%26currency%3DEUROS%26searchResultsView%3DTHUMBNAIL%26maxrows%3D30%26page%3D9

It's shocking how few there are, buying petrol in the future for anyone looking for second hand cars is going to be torture trying to find one. I have read though that a lot of manufacturers believe the tide will turn back towards petrol in the next ten years were that leaves anyone wanting second hand petrol in the meantime is anyone's guess.

mickdw

Even a 6 cylinder diesel is getting harder to find although yes there are options

rocky

Stallingrad wrote: »

... to my eyes the 5 is looking dated already, as is the 2 year old 3 series which is still a relative rare sight on the roads.


It's really hard to see what BMW now offers that others don't do as well or better.

An inline 6 engine? Interesting Petrol engines?

Don't care too much how a car looks, and I thought the F10 was a bit bland when they appeared, but it's grown on me and think it looks great in MSport (always MSport for BMW)

This is a standard MSport:

Stavros Murphy

Unfortunate choice of reg.