Aer Lingus suing SIPTU

corkonion

Does this have implications for the economy... is this a first. If aer lingus win substantial damages, SIPTU are banjaxed.




Aer Lingus is suing SIPTU for damages incurred as a result of threatened industrial action that was due to take place today.
The four-hour strike was blocked on Wednesday when the High Court issued an injunction to the Dublin Airport Authority restraining SIPTU from carrying out the stoppage.
In proceedings issued today, Aer Lingus is seeking damages under a number of headings, including breach of contract and conspiracy.
It also claims that SIPTU has unlawfully interfered with the airline's trade or business.
The plenary summons claims that SIPTU induced a breach of Aer Lingus contracts with its customers.
The company is also seeking damages for loss and damage, which it said was inflicted by unlawful means.
The airline is seeking a declaration from the courts that the secret ballot held by SIPTU ahead of the threatened strike was unlawful.
It wants a declaration that no valid trade dispute exists between Aer Lingus and SIPTU in accordance with industrial relations law, and that the industrial action was not in contemplation or furtherance of any such trade dispute.
It alleges that SIPTU has failed to comply with a collective agreement and failed to exhaust procedures provided for in that agreement.
The legal documents were served on the union this morning.

Manach

Offhand, I'm unsure if they would win - that while the authorisation to strike was clumsily handled by the union, they still went about it in accordance within the legal framework and did not act out of bad faith. I think there were cases where there was proven fraud in the balloting and the Judge still did not impose damages.

Godge

This will be an interesting case.

The legislative restrictions of the Industrial Relations Act versus the constitutional rights to freedom of association.

I look forward to it already.

chrysagon

it smells of a minefield, with neither willing to give ground, and the nucleus of the problem has yet to be resolved..the pensions!!

sarumite

chrysagon wrote: »

it smells of a minefield, with neither willing to give ground, and the nucleus of the problem has yet to be resolved..the pensions!!

Considering Aer Lingus accepted the labour court ruling, I would say SIPTU's rejection of it puts the ball in their court in terms of the penions issue at least.

the immortals

I think aer lingus sueing a union which represents around 200,000 people is disgraceful, i for one will not be using this airline again

noodler

the immortals wrote: »

I think aer lingus sueing a union which represents around 200,000 people is disgraceful, i for one will not be using this airline again

Thats one way of looking at it.

deise blue

sarumite wrote: »

Considering Aer Lingus accepted the labour court ruling, I would say SIPTU's rejection of it puts the ball in their court in terms of the penions issue at least.

The Labour Court issued a recommendation which is not binding on either of the parties in dispute , a ruling implies a binding decision - such is not the case.

sarumite

deise blue wrote: »

The Labour Court issued a recommendation which is not binding on either of the parties in dispute , a ruling implies a binding decision - such is not the case.

True. My use of language was unintentionally misleading

Godge

deise blue wrote: »

The Labour Court issued a recommendation which is not binding on either of the parties in dispute , a ruling implies a binding decision - such is not the case.

The Labour Court recommendation is immaterial to this issue. It is the procedures set out in the Industrial Relations Act that will be of consequence allied to any constitutional rights whether implied or explicit.

n97 mini

the immortals wrote: »

I think aer lingus sueing a union which represents around 200,000 people is disgraceful, i for one will not be using this airline again

They're suing for loss of income due to SIPTU's threatened strike action. If SIPTU disrupted trade often enough companies could go bust. Ironically SIPTU doesn't represent people on the dole.

corkonion

Round one to Aer Lingus, today's judgment awarded costs from SIPTU to both Are Lingus and Ryanair, but have been set aside subject to a full hearing.

Cookie_Monster

the immortals wrote: »

I think aer lingus sueing a union which represents around 200,000 people is disgraceful, i for one will not be using this airline again

they're not doing it simply because they feel like it you know.
What about the union holding the travelling public to ransom for their own selfish gains... would you be happy to be part of that?

corkonion

the immortals wrote: »

I think aer lingus sueing a union which represents around 200,000 people is disgraceful, i for one will not be using this airline again

enjoy the ferry, or the out of town airports.
SIPTU thought it was ok to ruin out national holiday weekend for thousands of people by having a strike, not because of a pay dispute, or treating employees badly, but because of a possible pension deficit. Thousands of people have no work, a few hundred thousand people have had to emigrate, many individuals that could not make ends meet have sadly taken their own lives. Houses are being repossesed daily and we are trying to get through a period of huge suffering, and SIPTU try to stop thousands of people travelling because of a "possible pension deficit".
I hope they lose their drawers on this.

Godge

corkonion wrote: »

enjoy the ferry, or the out of town airports.
SIPTU thought it was ok to ruin out national holiday weekend for thousands of people by having a strike, not because of a pay dispute, or treating employees badly, but because of a possible pension deficit. Thousands of people have no work, a few hundred thousand people have had to emigrate, many individuals that could not make ends meet have sadly taken their own lives. Houses are being repossesed daily and we are trying to get through a period of huge suffering, and SIPTU try to stop thousands of people travelling because of a "possible pension deficit".
I hope they lose their drawers on this.

To be fair, you are only affected by the strike if you can afford to travel by plane so all the thousands out of work and impoverished and suffering house repossession shouldn't be affected by the strike.

noodler

Godge wrote: »

To be fair, you are only affected by the strike if you can afford to travel by plane so all the thousands out of work and impoverished and suffering house repossession shouldn't be affected by the strike.

And the thousands entering the contry for the weekend festivities and the plethora of local businesses relying on their custom.

realitykeeper

Manach wrote: »

Offhand, I'm unsure if they would win

Judges should have their pay cut whenever they make a verdict which is not in the interests of the general population. Very often the taxpayer or consumers such as Aer Lingus passengers have to pay for legal awards or take a hit if a verdict goes in favour of a partisan organisation like siptu.

noodler

realitykeeper wrote: »

Any judiciary worth its salt ought to be able to recognize the validity of the Aer Lingus case. The Irish judiciary however may not be up to the task, as their track record is far from perfect. Should the judiciary fail to deliver a just verdict based on the correct interpretation of the law (which can be construed any which way anyway) then I would expect Minister Shatter to take account of the incompetence of the judges and cut their pay.

Judges should have their pay cut whenever they make a verdict which is not in the interests of the general population. Very often a defendant or a plaintiff do well out legal proceedings but the taxpayer has to pay for it and the general public have to live with the consequences.

Haha.

Godge

realitykeeper wrote: »

Judges should have their pay cut whenever they make a verdict which is not in the interests of the general population. Very often the taxpayer or consumers such as Aer Lingus passengers have to pay for legal awards or take a hit if a verdict goes in favour of a partisan organisation like siptu.

Yes, yes, judicial decisions by mob rule, we left that one behind years ago, where do people keep coming up with these crazy ideas?

fliball123

the immortals wrote: »

I think aer lingus sueing a union which represents around 200,000 people is disgraceful, i for one will not be using this airline again

I think its about time someone put it up the unions..they have way to much power..You cant fart now without the threat of strike

corkonion

Godge wrote: »

To be fair, you are only affected by the strike if you can afford to travel by plane so all the thousands out of work and impoverished and suffering house repossession shouldn't be affected by the strike.

Have you any idea how recovery and employment gains work? A rising tide lifts all boats and sadly the "thousands out of work and impoverished" are actually most affected by this type of action. Sure the strikers may be down a few Euro, and the Holidaymakers may miss a few hours in the Sun, but businesses and Business owners would be the big losers, Hoteliers would have empty rooms, bars have less custom, Major international companies unable to move to and from their Irish location. And guess what that does to a fledgling recovery, It certainly doesn't encourage the Hotel owner to take on an extra waitress, or the Bar owner to hire a new barman. Get real.

deise blue

A strong possibility that this case will never make the courts I would imagine.

Smacks strongly of the usual industrial relations posturing so common in Ireland , are Aer Lingus prepared to poison relations with their staff & fly in the face of the majority shareholder's opinion that what Aer Lingus propose doing is unhelpful as per Mr. Varadkar's comments.

Personally I think quite a lot will depend on the recently formed reporting group's findings on the Pension scheme & proposed solutions.

corkonion

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has said Aer Lingus should suspend its legal action against SIPTU for damages incurred due to threatened industrial action last week.
He said "Well I don't think Aer Lingus suing SIPTU or anyone is helpful.
"An expert group has now been appointed to help find a solution to the problem at the airport.
"At this stage I don't think there should be any strike threats, any strike ballots and nobody should be suing anyone. Let's knuckle down now to finding a solution to this problem."
Speaking this morning, he said SIPTU and the other unions should withdraw any threat of strike action and should not proceed with any balloting of their members.
He repeated his belief that Aer Lingus suing SIPTU or any individuals is unhelpful.
He said: "I think Aer Lingus should suspend their legal action and I think SIPTU and the other unions should withdraw any strike threat and decide not to proceed with any balloting.
"Everyone needs to engage now with this expert group. Let's find a solution to this problem."

Godge

corkonion wrote: »

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has said Aer Lingus should suspend its legal action against SIPTU for damages incurred due to threatened industrial action last week.
He said "Well I don't think Aer Lingus suing SIPTU or anyone is helpful.
"An expert group has now been appointed to help find a solution to the problem at the airport.
"At this stage I don't think there should be any strike threats, any strike ballots and nobody should be suing anyone. Let's knuckle down now to finding a solution to this problem."
Speaking this morning, he said SIPTU and the other unions should withdraw any threat of strike action and should not proceed with any balloting of their members.
He repeated his belief that Aer Lingus suing SIPTU or any individuals is unhelpful.
He said: "I think Aer Lingus should suspend their legal action and I think SIPTU and the other unions should withdraw any strike threat and decide not to proceed with any balloting.
"Everyone needs to engage now with this expert group. Let's find a solution to this problem."

His problem is that if Aer Lingus win their case, the unions are fair game for every employer and that would upset the public service unions and give government a problem.

Dave!

Would probably give the unions a bit of a problem too!

the immortals

corkonion wrote: »

enjoy the ferry, or the out of town airports.
SIPTU thought it was ok to ruin out national holiday weekend for thousands of people by having a strike, not because of a pay dispute, or treating employees badly, but because of a possible pension deficit. Thousands of people have no work, a few hundred thousand people have had to emigrate, many individuals that could not make ends meet have sadly taken their own lives. Houses are being repossesed daily and we are trying to get through a period of huge suffering, and SIPTU try to stop thousands of people travelling because of a "possible pension deficit".
I hope they lose their drawers on this.

No need to get ferry, I'll fly with some else, are you actually saying that people shouldn't be able to strike because of the complete mismanagement of the country by politicians and bankers, what are you on about? What has any union got to do with the things you mention? I see you put (possible pension deficit) in inverted commas, do you honestly think over 90% of DAA and aer lingus staff voted to strike because of a "possible pension deficit" also if you or any of your family or friends are entitled to any of the following, well you can say a big thank you to those terrible unions, minimum wage, sick leave, equal pay for women, lunch breaks, 40 hour week, child labour laws, health and safety in work, holiday pay, sick pay, right to strike!!!, and that's just a few I can think of, 90 cents in every euro paid into that pension is gone, this has been going on for years, the staff have been more than patient and treated with comtempt by management

chrysagon

Theres alot of shadow boxing, and with the pension review ctte on board, trying to find solutions, over half billion euro defecit has to be found, hard to see where a solution to suit all can be found, whilst i disagree holding passengers to ransom on Bank holidays, its a total sham that many DAA employees who paid in over years to a pension scheme , have now seen all their investment totally wiped!

macnug

the immortals wrote: »

No need to get ferry, I'll fly with some else, are you actually saying that people shouldn't be able to strike because of the complete mismanagement of the country by politicians and bankers, what are you on about? What has any union got to do with the things you mention? I see you put (possible pension deficit) in inverted commas, do you honestly think over 90% of DAA and aer lingus staff voted to strike because of a "possible pension deficit" also if you or any of your family or friends are entitled to any of the following, well you can say a big thank you to those terrible unions, minimum wage, sick leave, equal pay for women, lunch breaks, 40 hour week, child labour laws, health and safety in work, holiday pay, sick pay, right to strike!!!, and that's just a few I can think of, 90 cents in every euro paid into that pension is gone, this has been going on for years, the staff have been more than patient and treated with comtempt by management

But are pensions not investments, investments that can go up or down? Why should Air Lingus fork out because the value on their pension fund (like most others) have gone down, they don't control the markets.

By the way did anybody else see the irony of siptu cutting there staffs pensions because of a deficite in their pension scheme, anybody else tried to do that and they would strike.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0225/506597-siptu/

Paulzx

realitykeeper wrote: »

Judges should have their pay cut whenever they make a verdict which is not in the interests of the general population. Very often the taxpayer or consumers such as Aer Lingus passengers have to pay for legal awards or take a hit if a verdict goes in favour of a partisan organisation like siptu.

Ooookaay so.............you want judges to ignore the Constitution and existing legislation and make only populist legal decisions that will please the general population.

What sort of delusional nonsense it that? What is the "general population"? There are dozens of conflicting interests in the "general population." That's why we have a legal system

Jesus, I don't agree with plenty of decision that judges make but you want to cut there pay irrespective of if a decision they make that is well within the legal framework and laws of the country just because you mightn't agree with it

sarumite

realitykeeper wrote: »

Judges should have their pay cut whenever they make a verdict which is not in the interests of the general population. Very often the taxpayer or consumers such as Aer Lingus passengers have to pay for legal awards or take a hit if a verdict goes in favour of a partisan organisation like siptu.

An independent judiciary is a cornerstone of any functioning democracy. I don't always like their decisions, but if they are grounded in the laws of the land I will at least respect them.

donkey balls

How come Aer lingus & Ryanair have never taking the Spanish or French ATC to court over the strike actions they have held over the years.

markpb

macnug wrote: »

But are pensions not investments, investments that can go up or down? Why should Air Lingus fork out because the value on their pension fund (like most others) have gone down, they don't control the markets.

The IASS is a defined benefits pension. The employee is told how to much to put in and is guaranteed a certain amount to be paid out. The risk is with the employer (or, in this case, employers) to make sure the funds are invested wisely enough to meet that promise. Alternatively they can hope that current employees contributions are enough to meet current pension payments.

The companies involved in the IASS will soon not have enough money in the fund to meet their obligations and the companies involved are much smaller so the money being paid in isn't enough to make up the difference.

Nowadays very few people are offered DB pensions, defined contribution pensions (where you know how much you'll pay in but can only guess at how much will be paid out) are more common.

donkey balls wrote: »

How come Aer lingus & Ryanair have never taking the Spanish or French ATC to court over the strike actions they have held over the years.

Presumably because those strikes were legal whereas the most recent threatened AL/DAA one was not?

Idbatterim

What has any union got to do with the things you mention? I see you put (possible pension deficit) in inverted commas, do you honestly think over 90% of DAA and aer lingus staff voted to strike because of a "possible pension deficit" also if you or any of your family or friends are entitled to any of the following, well you can say a big thank you to those terrible unions, minimum wage, sick leave, equal pay for women, lunch breaks, 40 hour week, child labour laws, health and safety in work, holiday pay, sick pay, right to strike!!!,

I dont buy this for a second, am I meant to believe that in 2014, people would be working 80 hour weeks, there would be no minimum wage, lunch breaks etc?! PLEASE Most companies and the government do have some moral compass. I'm not disputing that for their members they might achieve gains, but for the country and its competitiveness and productivity, they are parasites.

chrysagon

Luftahnsa had a strike ... Aerlingus had flights interupted..do they sue the Germans?

notharrypotter

Most companies and the government do have some moral compass

No they don't.

their sole role is to maximise the benefit of their owners.

Being nice to the staff is not a business requirement.

Try having a pass leaving cert and see what job's are available to you.

Equally see how much employers would be willing to someone without an acedemic or professional qualification you out of the kindness of their hearts.

sarumite

notharrypotter wrote: »

No they don't.

their sole role is to maximise the benefit of their owners.

Being nice to the staff is not a business requirement.

Try having a pass leaving cert and see what job's are available to you.

Equally see how much employers would be willing to someone without an acedemic or professional qualification you out of the kindness of their hearts.

Having a moral compass doesn't mean you have to hire someone even if they are unsuitable for the job.

Godge

notharrypotter wrote: »

No they don't.

their sole role is to maximise the benefit of their owners.

Being nice to the staff is not a business requirement.

Try having a pass leaving cert and see what job's are available to you.

Equally see how much employers would be willing to someone without an acedemic or professional qualification you out of the kindness of their hearts.

Maximising the benefit to their owners requires having hard-working co-operative workers especially in knowledge and service industries.

An accountant is not motivated can lose a company a fortune.
A retail assistant who is rude can reduce a shop's income.

So, yes, being nice to the staff is a business requirement.

Cookie_Monster

notharrypotter wrote: »

No they don't.

their sole role is to maximise the benefit of their owners.

maximise benefits of their stakeholders, not just their shareholders.

notharrypotter

notharrypotter wrote: »

No they don't.

their sole role is to maximise the benefit of their owners.

Being nice to the staff is not a business requirement.

Try having a pass leaving cert and see what job's are available to you.

Equally see how much employers would be willing to someone without an acedemic or professional qualification you out of the kindness of their hearts.

The 1800s called. They want their mindset back.

Do you think a business can be successful with a bunch of disgruntled staff? Being nice to the staff is step 1 of running a business.