No more fluoridation in the county

corkonion

If you want a nice glass of cold fresh pure drinking water then just jump on a bus to Kinsale and enjoy....
Cork County Council, the country's largest local authority ,
has voted for the fluoridation of Irish water to end.
Yesterday's motion was proposed by Clonakilty based
Councillor Christopher O Sullivan, while councillors also received
an open letter from the West Cork Fluoride Free campaign.
The campaigners believe there are links between fluoride ,
and a number of illnesses and diseases.
Over the last two years, six West Cork councils have voted for the
immediate cessation of the fluoridation of the public water supply.
The motion was unanimously passed by all of the councillors present.

spank_inferno

So there is no fluoride in your water as of today?

Or.... Did a council 'call on' the government to do something they have no intention or obligation to do?

j8wk2feszrnpao

corkonion wrote: »

The campaigners believe there are links between fluoride , and a number of illnesses and diseases.

They believe, or they have proof?

evilivor

munstermagic11 wrote: »

They believe, or they have proof?

They believe. Owen Boyden from Fluoride Free Towns was on RTE's today programme on radio earlier and claimed fluoride caused Down's syndrome and. When challenged by the presenter to cite a source, or, at the very least, name the medical journal which had published the research, he was unable to.

bumper234

evilivor wrote: »

They believe. Owen Boyden from Fluoride Free Towns was on RTE's today programme on radio earlier and claimed fluoride caused Down's syndrome and. When challenged by the presenter to cite a source, or, at the very least, name the medical journal which had published the research, he was unable to.

There's a surprise

minidazzler

And remember folks, don't vaccinate your kids against preventable dangerous diseases, they'll be autistic.

Bacchus

I have heard arguments before that the fluoride in Irish water is contributing to the higher than average level of cases of Autism and Down Syndrome in the country relative to pretty much anywhere else in the world. Any studies have been inconclusive though, some saying there is a correlation, some saying there isn't. I think there are too many other factors involved to say either way for sure. Still, fluoride in our water is not a good thing and there studies that show it affects the development of the brain so it's not a HUGE leap to link Autism or Down Syndrome to it, particularly when we drink and shower/bath in it every day. It's gonna have some health impact.

bumper234

Bacchus wrote: »

I have heard arguments before that the fluoride in Irish water is contributing to the higher than average level of cases of Autism and Down Syndrome in the country relative to pretty much anywhere else in the world. Any studies have been inconclusive though, some saying there is a correlation, some saying there isn't. I think there are too many other factors involved to say either way for sure. Still, fluoride in our water is not a good thing and there studies that show it affects the development of the brain so it's not a HUGE leap to link Autism or Down Syndrome to it, particularly when we drink and shower/bath in it every day. It's gonna have some health impact.

What causes down syndrome

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/145554.php

What causes autism

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/145554.php

No mention of fluoride being a contributing factor there.


What about all of the autistic and down syndrome children born in countries with no added fluoride:rolleyes:

mikeym

My teeth are in excellent shape because of fluoridation in the water.

Whats the alternative to fluoridation so?

alanucc

Interesting that this comes up around the same time as the responsibility for water treatment is being passed over to Irish Water

evilivor

alanucc wrote: »

Interesting that this comes up around the same time as the responsibility for water treatment is being passed over to Irish Water

I think it's more closely linked to forthcoming local elections.

ballsymchugh

the waiting lists at the dental hospital will be years now as opposed to months if this does go through

big_heart_on

My teeth are in good shape but I dont know how much of that is thanks to fluoride or proper care.

In Germany I understand that fluoride is added to table salt. That way if you want fluoride you can get it daily and if you dont want it you dont have to consume it.

I would suggest the German model is what we should have here, give individuals the choice.

evilivor

ballsymchugh wrote: »

the waiting lists at the dental hospital will be years now as opposed to months if this does go through

Yes, but at least Downs and Autism and all other maladies will have been eradicated.

Bacchus

bumper234 wrote: »

What causes down syndrome

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/145554.php

What causes autism

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/145554.php

No mention of fluoride being a contributing factor there.


What about all of the autistic and down syndrome children born in countries with no added fluoride:rolleyes:

No need for the rollie eyes. We're not children here.

I find the links to Downs Syndrome a stretch myself but flouride does have an effect on brain development and Autism has MANY causes (your link isn't working btw). Therefore I think it is reasonable to look for links between that and instances of mental disabilities. BTW, I never said it was THE cause but it could be a contributing factor, however small a factor it may be. We've no need for flouride to be in our water and since the long term effects of it's consumption are unknown, I'd rather it not be there. You want to look after your teeth, brush them regularly.

bumper234

Bacchus wrote: »

No need for the rollie eyes. We're not children here.

I find the links to Downs Syndrome a stretch myself but flouride does have an effect on brain development and Autism has MANY causes (your link isn't working btw). Therefore I think it is reasonable to look for links between that and instances of mental disabilities. BTW, I never said it was THE cause but it could be a contributing factor, however small a factor it may be. We've no need for flouride to be in our water and since the long term effects of it's consumption are unknown, I'd rather it not be there. You want to look after your teeth, brush them regularly.

So could carbonmonoxide....should we not ban driving until we are sure?

Bacchus

bumper234 wrote: »

So could carbonmonoxide....should we not ban driving until we are sure?

I don't disagree with your point but the two solutions "banning driving" and "stop adding flouride to our water" are not equal.

Removing the flouride is undoing what we did years ago. It is not necessary to add it to our water and there are many health concerns (beyond just autism) associated with it. I don't see a reason to keep adding it.

Banning driving would be a drastic measure that would grind the country to a halt and destroy our economy. The benefits to the environment and health would be great alright but it's quite ridiculous to compare it to the simple act of not adding flouride to our water. Totally off topic, but the future of renewable, clean energies is hopefully a bright one.

bumper234

Bacchus wrote: »

I don't disagree with your point but the two solutions "banning driving" and "stop adding flouride to our water" are not equal.

Removing the flouride is undoing what we did years ago. It is not necessary to add it to our water and there are many health concerns (beyond just autism) associated with it. I don't see a reason to keep adding it.

Banning driving would be a drastic measure that would grind the country to a halt and destroy our economy. The benefits to the environment and health would be great alright but it's quite ridiculous to compare it to the simple act of not adding flouride to our water. Totally off topic, but the future of renewable, clean energies is hopefully a bright one.

So there is no evidence of fluoride causing autism but you think it should be banned anyway just in case. Scaremongering at it's finest by throwing in autism and down syndrome without a shred of credible evidence (you deserve these):rolleyes:

Bacchus

bumper234 wrote: »

So there is no evidence of fluoride causing autism but you think it should be banned anyway just in case. Scaremongering at it's finest by throwing in autism and down syndrome without a shred of credible evidence (you deserve these):rolleyes:

You're quite the condescending one aren't you. I was not scaremongering at all. Read my posts, I even doubt the results of the studies myself and said ...

Any studies have been inconclusive though, some saying there is a correlation, some saying there isn't. I think there are too many other factors involved to say either way for sure

... in my first post. Further, I said

I find the links to Downs Syndrome a stretch myself but flouride does have an effect on brain development and Autism has MANY causes

I do not pretend to know exactly what effect Flouride is having on the health of the population but I have concerns that it has a negative effect on our health. You don't have to agree with all or any of the studies or articles on the topic them but give me one good reason why we should have flouride in our water. Bear in mind dental hygiene products are easily available to all. Why do YOU want to keep flouride in the water?

sok2005

I'm glad it's out of our water. Tooth decay is not caused by fluoride deficiency and no one is 100% sure what all the side effects or long term effects of fluoride in our system are.

If you want fluoride feel free to add it yourself, you get it in most toothpastes, it's in out tinned foods, fruits, veg etc. also.

evilivor

sok2005 wrote: »

I'm glad it's out of our water. Tooth decay is not caused by fluoride deficiency and no one is 100% sure what all the side effects or long term effects of fluoride in our system are.

If you want fluoride feel free to add it yourself, you get it in most toothpastes, it's in out tinned foods, fruits, veg etc. also.

It's not out our water. Cork County Council passed a motion calling on the Government to stop treating the public water supply with fluoride.

It has more effect on the world, or the water, than Cork declaring itself a Nuclear Free Zone.

the beer revolu

I think the onus should be on the people insisting on fluoridation to prove that it doesn't have any ill effects.
I think it may have been beneficial at one time when dental care and awareness weren't so good. Now, I see no reason for it when most people use toothpaste with fluoride and take much better care of their teeth.

Get it out, I say.

corkonion

I don't know all the pros and cons of fluoride, I do know that unless I buy bottled water in Ireland and stay away from coffee shops and all other sources of water I am being forced to consume a chemical that I don't want. The rest of europe have perfectly good teeth without being force fed this chemical that has been proven to effect brain development.

http://fluoridealert.org/studies/brain03/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity

http://www.globalresearch.ca/effects-of-fluoride-on-human-health-can-damage-the-brain-and-bones/5321568

j8wk2feszrnpao

the beer revolu wrote: »

I think the onus should be on the people insisting on fluoridation to prove that it doesn't have any ill effects.

Surely the onus is on either side to deliver their proof?

j8wk2feszrnpao

corkonion wrote: »

The rest of europe have perfectly good teeth without being force fed this chemical that has been proven to effect brain development.

Am I missing something here?
Are we all spinning out of control with brain damage due to being forced feed dangerous levels of fluoride in our water?

corkonion

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Am I missing something here?
Are we all spinning out of control with brain damage due to being forced feed dangerous levels of fluoride in our water?

Perhaps you are, nobody said Brain Damage, it is Brain Development that has been proven to be effected by fluoride, a very different thing. Why would anyone want a chemical added to their fresh water that can cause damage? There was a time in Ireland that Oral hygiene practices were non existent and fluoride was added as many people didn't have a tooth in their mouth at very young ages. That time has passed, the risks now certainly outweigh any benefits.

the beer revolu

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Surely the onus is on either side to deliver their proof?

Not really.
If you insist on putting a chemical in public water, I think the onus is on you to prove categorically and without doubt that it is safe to do so.

bumper234

the beer revolu wrote: »

Not really.
If you insist on putting a chemical in public water, I think the onus is on you to prove categorically and without doubt that it is safe to do so.

If you make claims that the chemical is dangerous and can lead to autism and down syndrome then surely the onus would be on you to back up these claims that it is unsafe.

ballsymchugh

corkonion wrote: »

I don't know all the pros and cons of fluoride, I do know that unless I buy bottled water in Ireland and stay away from coffee shops and all other sources of water I am being forced to consume a chemical that I don't want. The rest of europe have perfectly good teeth without being force fed this chemical that has been proven to effect brain development.

no they don't.
i'm a dentist working in the UK. i see more patients that you could only describe as dreadful in a month that i would see in a year in Dublin.
then again, if they take fluoride out, then i might be able to move home sooner and not spend my time twiddling my thumbs.
even the difference between urban and rural cork is obvious especially in kids.

corkonion

bumper234 wrote: »

If you make claims that the chemical is dangerous and can lead to autism and down syndrome then surely the onus would be on you to back up these claims that it is unsafe.

By that logic it would be ok for companies to add whatever chemicals they wanted to products, and if the consumer couldnt prove that they were toxic then that would be fine!!

if you look back a few posts you will find the links to the research that have been conducted on the dangers of fluoride, or else just google it. theres plenty of research there and none of it endorses the use of fluoride.

SamAK

Is it too much to ask to just have water in my water?

Never mind the argument about whether or not flouride causes brain damage, Downs or Autism.....I'd prefer to CHOOSE what I consume. Is that too much to ask?

bumper234

corkonion wrote: »

By that logic it would be ok for companies to add whatever chemicals they wanted to products, and if the consumer couldnt prove that they were toxic then that would be fine!!

if you look back a few posts you will find the links to the research that have been conducted on the dangers of fluoride, or else just google it. theres plenty of research there and none of it endorses the use of fluoride.

And for every link you post saying it's bad for you there is a link to a research stating that it's good for you.

the beer revolu

bumper234 wrote: »

If you make claims that the chemical is dangerous and can lead to autism and down syndrome then surely the onus would be on you to back up these claims that it is unsafe.

Eh, I made no such claims.
I'd just like a choice in the matter.

Knasher

corkonion wrote: »

Perhaps you are, nobody said Brain Damage, it is Brain Development that has been proven to be effected by fluoride, a very different thing.

Effected at doses well beyond anything that anybody is receiving. As with anything, dose matters, a small amount of penicillin will cure a headache, a large amount will kill you. Even water, if you drink enough of it, will cause your liver to shut down and kill you. Anything in a large enough does will generally have negative consequences, even if it has positive consequences at lower doses.

bumper234

the beer revolu wrote: »

Eh, I made no such claims.
I'd just like a choice in the matter.

Not "YOU" personally, i meant the anti-fluoride brigade

the beer revolu

bumper234 wrote: »

Not "YOU" personally, i meant the anti-fluoride brigade

but either way your argument is ridiculous as has been pointed

Originally Posted by corkonion

By that logic it would be ok for companies to add whatever chemicals they wanted to products, and if the consumer couldnt prove that they were toxic then that would be fine!!

evilivor

SamAK wrote: »

Is it too much to ask to just have water in my water?

Never mind the argument about whether or not flouride causes brain damage, Downs or Autism.....I'd prefer to CHOOSE what I consume. Is that too much to ask?

Public drinking water has a load of chemicals used in its treatment that's what makes it safe after people bathing, pooing and peeing into it. Activated Carbon for taste and odour control, Soda Ash, Lime, Caustic Soda and Sulphuric Acid to control the pH, a whole host of chemical agents to remove colour and cloudiness and prevent settlement Sodium Chlorite to sterilise it.

bumper234

the beer revolu wrote: »

but either way your argument is ridiculous as has been pointed

Originally Posted by corkonion

But companies DO add chemicals to everything your food is full of chemicals and preservatives.

Amirani

bumper234 wrote: »

But companies DO add chemicals to everything your food is full of chemicals and preservatives.

And you have a choice whether or not to purchase and consume those products.

bumper234

NiallSparky wrote: »

And you have a choice whether or not to purchase and consume those products.

Where does it state that you have to drink the tap water?

imitation

My parents think fluoride was a good thing, as it came in during there lifetime they can see clearly the difference before and after. Plenty of people had nasty teeth before it came in and plenty of misery, I know dental hygiene wasn't exactly a thing back then either. On the other hand now people basically drink acid on a regular basis with most soft drinks. People also snack regularly on sugar treats, so the risks are lot higher with no dental treatment.

Its also been in use for the last 70 years and been subject to much scrutiny, I really don't think its going to be the next cigarette or absestos, but people are so paranoid about mass treatments.

To me removing it is a mistake, people who do not brush (a large enough section of society I'm willing to bet) will almost certainly have painful dental issues because of this. Compare that with uncertain risks that nobody seems to have concrete evidence on.

I also think the less well off will be hit by this, dental care gets very expensive fast and is one of the first things to go off peoples lists, and cheaper diets are often more sugary.

Cork boy 55

No more votes for the far-left in cork

j8wk2feszrnpao

corkonion wrote: »

Perhaps you are, nobody said Brain Damage, it is Brain Development that has been proven to be effected by fluoride

Excessive levels may have proven cases, but there is no data for Cork/Ireland.
The language been used by you and others suggest that the country is in grave danger.
How has Ireland's Brain Development been damaged since the introduction of fluoride? I'm looking for stats/figures that show/prove that fluoride has been the sole factor.

corkonion wrote: »

Why would anyone want a chemical added to their fresh water that can cause damage?

Then sick a barrel out the front and use that fresh water.
Otherwise you are going to be drinking water that will have had chemicals in it, and I'm not talking about just fluoride.

corkonion wrote: »

the risks now certainly outweigh any benefits.

The link between our levels of fluoride and any of the cases you state are not proven.

This should be a national decision, not a local one. Either the fluoride is dangerous or it's not. A team of specialists, rather than a concerned group, should be advising the councils/state and a collective decision should be made on their expect analysis.

Bacchus

bumper234, care to answer the question I posed earlier? Why do you WANT flouride in your water? Forget the reasons against having it in our public water system (which we will shortly be paying for, thus negating ANY argument of choice in the matter), what is your reason to keep adding it? Is it a case of "ah we're fecked anyway, what harm's a bit of flouride" or do you have some specific reason that you want to have flouride added?

bumper234

Bacchus wrote: »

bumper234, care to answer the question I posed earlier? Why do you WANT flouride in your water? Forget the reasons against having it in our public water system (which we will shortly be paying for, thus negating ANY argument of choice in the matter), what is your reason to keep adding it? Is it a case of "ah we're fecked anyway, what harm's a bit of flouride" or do you have some specific reason that you want to have flouride added?

Nowhere did i say i WANTED it in the water but i would like to see solid evidence for it's removal instead of sensationalist scaremongering claims about autism and downs syndrome!

Bacchus

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Excessive levels may have proven cases, but there is no data for Cork/Ireland.
The language been used by you and others suggest that the country is in grave danger.
How has Ireland's Brain Development been damaged since the introduction of fluoride? I'm looking for stats/figures that show/prove that fluoride has been the sole factor.

I think it is worth noting that brain development is just one area of health that there are concerns about. Another big issue is thyroid disorders (http://ffwireland.blogspot.ie/2013/11/how-water-fluoridation-increases.html). The crux of the issue here is this.
Flouride no longer provides a necessary service to the population thanks to the availability of dental hygiene products. If someone can't brush their own teeth, that's not the states responsibility to resolve beyond better education in schools on the issue. Flouride however, has many health implications, some with stronger evidence than others. So, why if it is no longer needed should we be putting people's health at risk if there is even a chance that is causing a fraction of what is claimed it is?

munstermagic11 wrote: »

This should be a national decision, not a local one. Either the fluoride is dangerous or it's not. A team of specialists, rather than a concerned group, should be advising the councils/state and a collective decision should be made on their expect analysis.

I agree. It will be a slow process but hopefully we'll start to see change and no longer have flouride in our public water supply.

Bacchus

bumper234 wrote: »

Nowhere did i say i WANTED it in the water but i would like to see solid evidence for it's removal instead of sensationalist scaremongering claims about autism and downs syndrome!

There is no sensationalism here and you repeatedly use autism and downs syndrome to make your case when noone is really pushing an argument that it flouride definitively causes either (Downs Syndrome in particular).

Basically, you're sh*t stirring, you've no "pro-flouride" argument at all. And it's not the removal we want. It's not in the water to begin with. We want to put a stop to ADDING it to the water.

pwurple

Jeez, scare-mongering beatjng common sense as usual in CCC.

The line about european countries not adding it to their water, is not because there is anything wrong with flouride, it's that the population don't drink the tap water that much. That's why they add it to the salt instead.

I couldn't give a toss whether it is added or not for myself, i look after my dental care. But I do think it's saving the country a boatload in healthcare costs. Remember tax-payers, you pay for all those medical card fillings and extractions for those not as tooth-conscious as yourselves. Feeling like you want to pay for more of those? Open the wallet.

A mouth full of rotten teeth isn't just rotten teeth either. It's an avenue for disease to get into the body. Our health system is already a shambles, do we really need to add more pressure to it?

bumper234

Bacchus wrote: »

There is no sensationalism here and you repeatedly use autism and downs syndrome to make your case when noone is really pushing an argument that it flouride definitively causes either (Downs Syndrome in particular).

Basically, you're sh*t stirring, you've no "pro-flouride" argument at all. And it's not the removal we want. It's not in the water to begin with. We want to put a stop to ADDING it to the water.

Yet you felt the need to bring it up and say that there could be a link :rolleyes:

BetterThanThou

I don't think fluoride is going to cause any health problems, I just seem to get a taste I don't like from fluoridated water, so I'd rather it wasn't fluoridated. No biggie though, bottled water is cheap enough.

evilivor

BetterThanThou wrote: »

I don't think fluoride is going to cause any health problems, I just seem to get a taste I don't like from fluoridated water, so I'd rather it wasn't fluoridated. No biggie though, bottled water is cheap enough.

That's more likely to be the chlorine added as a disinfectant.