Unhappy with Surveyor Report - should I pay?

redt0m

Well, unhappy is to say the least. I arranged for a surveyor to look at a house I'm interested in. The surveyor was recommended by a friend whose father is a builder in town so I figured it would be at least someone who knows what they are doing. What I got back was a photocopy of a one page handwritten report, with what looked like a hand drawn logo across the top. All the report mentioned was some hair line cracks here and there, some dampness in a couple of places and that there is some insulation in the attic. Just wondering where I stand with regard to paying the bill, because I feel the report is incredibly amateurish and unprofessional. The surveyor is an older guy, obviously not familiar with even Microsoft Word. Now, he may have recorded some legitimate details, but I'm very deflated by what I got. Can you refuse to pay a surveyor after he's done a survey?

bovril

I'm not sure I would pay if I were you. Just for a comparison, we got a surveyor's report a couple of weeks back and it was 47 pages in total. Some of it was a glossary at the front but for the most part the Surveyor had photos of everything he checked. He even took photos of some readings from the gadgets he used to measure humidity etc. I feel he did a very thorough job and mentioned everything no matter how small. I'm not even sure if your guy gave enough information for your solicitor to work with. Usually the report is sent to your solicitor as it mentions any extensions/changes to the property and boundaries which the solicitor might need to check. Also our surveyor was then available to answer any questions we had on the report afterwards.

redt0m

Thanks for the reply. I'll see if I can get a solicitor to throw their eye over it just for a professional opinion.

jon1981

You get what you pay for.

How much was the surveyor? Ours was 300e and we got a 25 page report and detailed.

MouseTail

Was it meant to be a full structural report? Typically valuation reports will be just a couple of pages.

johnnyskeleton

redt0m wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I'll see if I can get a solicitor to throw their eye over it just for a professional opinion.

And if you don't like the solicitors professional opinion, will you pay her?

redt0m

The guy wants €220 for his report. I've since shown it to a couple of people (who have gone through the process before) and they both laughed as soon as they saw it.

Doop

What professional body is this 'surveyor' registered with ?? ... SCSI.... RICS ??

I suspect the term surveyor is being used very loosely in the above scenario

Doop

MouseTail wrote: »

Was it meant to be a full structural report? Typically valuation reports will be just a couple of pages.

A valuation survey has nothing to do with condition

tempnam

Doop wrote: »

What professional body is this 'surveyor' registered with ?? ... SCSI.... RICS ??

I suspect the term surveyor is being used very loosely in the above scenario

Yes.

OP - check that he is a chartered surveyor.

Also, if the information is satisfactory but the report format is the problem, why not go back to him and explain what type of report you were expecting. See if he can produce something acceptable.

MouseTail

Doop wrote: »

A valuation survey has nothing to do with condition

no, but that is all you will get for €220.

redt0m

Thanks for the replies folks. He has the letters IEI written after his name, if that helps. Can't see either SCSI or RICS mentioned anywhere. And it was meant to be a structural report. Maybe I've jumped in eyes wide shut, but I thought the recommendation was sound. One of the people I showed it to echoed what Bovril suggested above, that it may not have enough information for my solicitor to work with, even if the format of it is atrocious.

Doop

redt0m wrote: »

Thanks for the replies folks. He has the letters IEI written after his name, if that helps.

I would suspect that refers to Engineers Ireland, you can search his name on the website to see if he is a chartered engineer. If you want to go further you could contact them and ask about what they would consider standard for such a report.

http://www.engineersireland.ie/Membership/Registered-Titles.aspx

It may be best to talk to him directly and express your dissatisfaction and make it clear what you expected, as stated by others building survey reports are generally a lot more comprehensive and lengthy!

To be honest you're in a tricky situation, you asked for a report he did it and now he expects to be paid. I somehow suspect it is not his day to day work if he is producing such a report that you have described.

A structural report will generally report on the structure i.e. what is holding the building up, is it adequate / in good condition. He may be of the opinion that that is what he has done albeit not in the most professional way.
Slightly different to a building survey which is a more rounded survey of condition / compliance / issues which may need further investigation.

whatnext

To be honest the content of the report matters very little (as the OP described it) without a copy of his professional indemnity insurance policy stapled to it. Ask for that and I suspect it will be the last you hear. If he does supply it, and the report says the property is sound at least you are possibly insured?
I'd ring the insurer and double check at least

D3PO

sounds very amatuer.

Go back to him and demand the report be provided in a typed manner and demand a copy of his professional indemnity insurance cert. Without either tell him your not going to pay a red cent.

Trish56

Show it to your Solicitor and get him/her to contact surveyor to request a full typed structural report and a copy of his Professional Indemnity Insurance.

Duckjob

Give him a hand-drawn cheque complete with your best rendering of your applicable banks logo.

ted1

What exactly is the issue?

You are not happy with his discoveries? Do you think he missed stuff?

Did you want a 50 page report that is mostly generic and only a couple of paragraphs have being changed?

Did you want it typed?

Is the report legible and dies it give a report of the structure?

What age is the house?

MouseTail

I think you did well for that price. A structural survey costs €600 +, A visual walk through, highlighting visual defects costs around €300. What is the issue with the report other than it is handwritten? IEI stands for Instiutute of Engineers Ireland.

Marcusm

Duckjob wrote: »

Give him a hand-drawn cheque complete with your best rendering of your applicable banks logo.

That would be a valid cheque and therefore not a good idea if you don't want to pay!

D3PO

MouseTail wrote: »

I think you did well for that price. A structural survey costs €600 +, A visual walk through, highlighting visual defects costs around €300. What is the issue with the report other than it is handwritten? IEI stands for Instiutute of Engineers Ireland.

Any engineers report without a copy of the engineers professional indemnity insurance cert isnt worth the paper its written (or typed on)

How can people think its ok for an engineer not to provide this ? If he has missed something or misreported something the OP has no way to claim. The OP right now doesnt even know that he has current cover in place. Little Johnny next doors assessment of the property is worth as much as the OP's handwritten report as it stands.

regardless of this its highly unprofessional for any report to be delivered in a handwritten manner. This isnt the 1960's technology has moved on and theres a certain standard that people can expect professionals to adhere to.

L1011

Marcusm wrote: »

That would be a valid cheque and therefore not a good idea if you don't want to pay!

Not in Ireland it wouldn't be. Cheques aren't valid without stamp duty paid on them and the stamp duty mark printed, unlike the UK where cheques have been accepted as negotiable when written on practically anything tried (although the infamous cow story wasn't actually true.

D3PO

reminds me of the story of that guy in the US who cashed a junkmail cheque which was honoured

Wabbit Ears

Id pay the surveyor and tear the friend who recommended him a new one.

Marcusm

MYOB wrote: »

Not in Ireland it wouldn't be. Cheques aren't valid without stamp duty paid on them and the stamp duty mark printed, unlike the UK where cheques have been accepted as negotiable when written on practically anything tried (although the infamous cow story wasn't actually true.

can you point out where it is rendered invalid? I can understand that it cannot be adduced as evidence in legal proceedings unless stamped but that is a different matter. I agree that a bank is equally unlikely to cash it. THe point of my post was to exhort the OP not to acknowledge the purported liability in writing if he actually means to dispute it.

L1011

Marcusm wrote: »

can you point out where it is rendered invalid? I can understand that it cannot be adduced as evidence in legal proceedings unless stamped but that is a different matter. I agree that a bank is equally unlikely to cash it. THe point of my post was to exhort the OP not to acknowledge the purported liability in writing if he actually means to dispute it.

Revenue regulations mean that its not actually a cheque at all without the stamp printed - if a bank cashes a document purporting to be but not actually a cheque you'd be getting your money back pretty quickly.

But yes, even a joking 'attempt' to pay would be a bad idea if disputing that you should pay at all.

Marcusm

MYOB wrote: »

Revenue regulations mean that its not actually a cheque at all without the stamp printed - if a bank cashes a document purporting to be but not actually a cheque you'd be getting your money back pretty quickly.

But yes, even a joking 'attempt' to pay would be a bad idea if disputing that you should pay at all.

That's not how tax laws work (speaking as tax specialist for 24 years); they do not generally render transactions void or voidable but impose other conditions. One of the reasons for this is the inability of the government agencies to interfere generally in private contractual arrangement and property rights. They can impose penalties but generally not invalidate.

L1011

Marcusm wrote: »

That's not how tax laws work (speaking as tax specialist for 24 years); they do not generally render transactions void or voidable but impose other conditions. One of the reasons for this is the inability of the government agencies to interfere generally in private contractual arrangement and property rights. They can impose penalties but generally not invalidate.

How is something a transaction in the first place when the purported document to form the transaction is not legally valid though? Theres a definition of a cheque from Revenue and again from IPSO. If something doesn't meet that definition, how is it a cheque to actually perform a transaction to allow the above to be an issue?

redt0m

Thanks for the replies folks, I'm waiting on some feedback on the report at the moment - a few other people have expressed surprise at it as well. Nevertheless, I feel that the report may not be as comprehensive as it should be and as it is the first survey I have ever got done I'm unsure if I can use it. I can upload scans of the pages if it's ok with the Mods (?) just so you can see what I got (I'll have any names/numbers blacked out).

Mrs OBumble

D3PO wrote: »

Any engineers report without a copy of the engineers professional indemnity insurance cert isnt worth the paper its written (or typed on)

I totally agree with this, and think it's the way to proceed.

D3PO wrote: »

regardless of this its highly unprofessional for any report to be delivered in a handwritten manner. This isnt the 1960's technology has moved on and theres a certain standard that people can expect professionals to adhere to.

Not so sure about. It's the quality of the guys engineering I'd be interested in, rather than his typing.

That siad - he may have done it as a favour for a friend, and not really wanted to do it at all. Remember we're talking older-generation Irish here ....

Marcusm

MYOB wrote: »

How is something a transaction in the first place when the purported document to form the transaction is not legally valid though? Theres a definition of a cheque from Revenue and again from IPSO. If something doesn't meet that definition, how is it a cheque to actually perform a transaction to allow the above to be an issue?

This mat be dragging it a bit off topic but a cheque's validity is not generally giverned by ta law but by the Chequs Act 1959 and more comprehensively by the Bills of Exchange Act 1882 (a cheque is merely a subset of a bill of exchange). The law does not specify any particular form of writing or medium (hence the apocryphal written on the side of a cow). The cheque will be an instrument and a stampable one. The duty is collected by the bank on issuance of the cheque book but no liability to stamp duty actually arises until the cheque is issued - only then does it become stampable instrument. THe inability to use the cheque in court unless stamped is what makes the stamp duty enforceable (plus the fact that a bank does not want hassle from revenue for such a small amount).

However, none of this affects the validity of a cheque written on blank stationery - in fact, banks will occasionally provide cheques on an emergency basis without magnetic data specifying the account etc.

An interesting but academic discussion.

redt0m

Ok, so this is the report I received, if anyone wants a gander at it:

killers1

redt0m wrote: »

Ok, so this is the report I received, if anyone wants a gander at it:

Sorry but that genuinely made me laugh out loud... Looks like a builder giving you a list of a few jobs to be carried out. Go to a proper surveyors website, print off a sample report and tell him you want something similarly detailed or you're not paying OR tell him the report was extremely unsatisfactory and you'll pay half the fee, but then get an expert to do a proper inspection. You're making possibly the biggest purchase in your life - why do purchasers cut corners on a survey to save a couple of €00's when the end result could cost €000's??

D3PO

OP seriously did his 3 year old child put that together ?

im assuming you have gone back and refused to pay ?

what did he say when you asked for a copy of his professional indeminity insurance cert ?

MouseTail

I retract earlier post, that's very poor indeed. Not sure what you can do though. You will certainly need another report to satisfy Bank and Solicitor.

killers1

D3PO wrote: »

what did he say when you asked for a copy of his professional indeminity insurance cert ?

He probably drew one on the spot....

redt0m

I rang him, said I have shown it to a few people and they have all basically laughed at it and so I am concerned that I won't actually be able to use it. He said 'I do these kind of reports all the time'. I'd hate to see what he charges for a proper report. I told him I'm awaiting feedback on it and will get back to him after that (have reached out to IEI for any comments). I also asked him for his Indemnity Insurance cert and he mumbled 'yeah, yeah, ok'. I'm going to draw a line under the whole thing on Monday and move on. If the IEI express reservations about the report I'll have some official feedback and won't be paying.

killers1

redt0m wrote: »

I rang him, said I have shown it to a few people and they have all basically laughed at it and so I am concerned that I won't actually be able to use it. He said 'I do these kind of reports all the time'. I'd hate to see what he charges for a proper report. I told him I'm awaiting feedback on it and will get back to him after that (have reached out to IEI for any comments). I also asked him for his Indemnity Insurance cert and he mumbled 'yeah, yeah, ok'. I'm going to draw a line under the whole thing on Monday and move on. If the IEI express reservations about the report I'll have some official feedback and won't be paying.

The bank only need to see a copy of the report if the property is over 100 years old or if the banks Valuer indicates a survey is required. That report is for your peace of mind that there are no structural issues etc not that it's very comprehensive. Many people get surveys carried out by competent builders who wouldn't have PI cover and the surveyors that do have PI cover will have a load of disclaimers in their report to protect themselves anyway.

Doop

killers1 wrote: »

. Many people get surveys carried out by competent builders who wouldn't have PI cover and the surveyors that do have PI cover will have a load of disclaimers in their report to protect themselves anyway.

Using a builder for a condition survey would be a bad idea, fair enough if you simply want to price getting work done.

Surveyors can write in disclaimers until the cows come home, it isnt a get out of everything clause unless its genuine case of something they could not have seen. As long as any other competent surveyor would have picked up on the issue they have little to no defence.

See;
Walsh v Jones Lang Lasalle

infoguy

I just noticed your question and hope that i can be of help.
I'm an Engineer registered with the Institute of Engineers of Ireland, sole trader, and with thirty six years of experience in house surveys. I have to say that you were treated very badly by who ever it was that provided you with a hand written sketch. No! do'nt pay for it - you did,nt get what you asked for.As for the guy who said that he got a massive number of pages in his report - then that's nearly as bad because the examination was of a house - it was,nt a hotel !
If that guy was registered with the I.E.I. his name should appear on the register of that institution but you need to know what title he is using first before you can check. You were charged far too much for what he did anyway. The going rate locally is 250 euro for a fully comprehensive check of the property. Furthermore, never take the recommendation of a builder in a case like this as there could be a conflict of interest.

hometruths

bovril wrote: »

I'm not sure I would pay if I were you. Just for a comparison, we got a surveyor's report a couple of weeks back and it was 47 pages in total. Some of it was a glossary at the front but for the most part the Surveyor had photos of everything he checked. He even took photos of some readings from the gadgets he used to measure humidity etc. I feel he did a very thorough job and mentioned everything no matter how small. I'm not even sure if your guy gave enough information for your solicitor to work with. Usually the report is sent to your solicitor as it mentions any extensions/changes to the property and boundaries which the solicitor might need to check. Also our surveyor was then available to answer any questions we had on the report afterwards.

Hi bovril, if this guy is anywhere near Dublin/Wicklow any chance you could pm me his details?

Thanks!