Landlord changed locks, what can I do?

dmrules

As per title, is it legal? Called gards but was told thats not their problem...any ideas what to do?

Thanks

theteal

Cha-ching!

Is there a back story to this OP? Straight onto the PRTB with you. Do you have alternative accom for a while?

dmrules

Unfortunately there is...the tenants missed 6 weeks payments due to loss of income...tried to give him some cash today but he wants the whole lot...no alternative accom...

foggy_lad

dmrules wrote: »

Unfortunately there is...the tenants missed 6 weeks payments due to loss of income...tried to give him some cash today but he wants the whole lot...no alternative accom...

As long as the landlord does not live in the same property the tenants have been evicted illegally and should get alternative accommodation and immediately open a case with the PRTB and get compensation from the person they were renting from! Is this cowboy operator also holding their belongings for ransom?

dmrules

Yes, all their belongings are inside the house...how fast is PRTB in this kind of cases? Can they put pressure on landlord to let them in?

fash

dmrules wrote: »

Yes, all their belongings are inside the house...how fast is PRTB in this kind of cases? Can they put pressure on landlord to let them in?

A couple of months unfortunately- but expect a payout in the region of 5-10k.

djimi

Probably the best thing that you can do is go through the adjudications on the PRTB website and print out some of the rulings where tenants are awarded 4+ figure sums for damages in the case of illegal evictions. It might make the landlord cop on and realise the trouble that they have put themselves in.

Miguel_Sanchez

First thing they should do is ring Threshold in the morning. Then talk to the PRTB straight after that.

http://www.threshold.ie/

BorneTobyWilde

Is there any protection for the landloard? If they're not getting paid the rent what steps can they take?

BorneTobyWilde

Seems the guards he called did not know they law. But that is no surprise in Ireland.

rubberdiddies

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Is there any protection for the landloard? If they're not getting paid the rent what steps can they take?

Absolutely zero.
Any tenant can suddenly decide not to pay rent and get up to 3 months rent free before moving on to screw over another landlord.

Landlord has no enforceable rights.

Everyone on this thread suggesting that the tenant go all guns blazing and screw the landlord for thousands in compo should have a think about the type of person they are.

The OP admitted that the tenants haven't paid rent for at least 6 weeks. To me there is no difference there to walking into a shop and stealing something every day for 6 weeks. You can dress it up whatever way you want but it's stealing.

Mr.Fred

Pay your bloody rent then he might let you in. Sick and tired of reading about the poor tennant. Things need to change drastically over here.

Before the righteous get all uppity Yes the landlord was wrong to lock ye out.

foggy_lad

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Is there any protection for the landloard? If they're not getting paid the rent what steps can they take?

Yes, the landlord is supposed to give notice of arrears then start eviction proceedings.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Seems the guards he called did not know they law. But that is no surprise in Ireland.

The Guard was 100% corect in that there is nothing they can do once the locks have been changed and the landlord is the keyholder! If they had caught the landlord breaking in they could have arrested him but They cant allow or suggest the tenant to break back in as this is illegal. It is up to the tenant to take a case against the landlord for illegal eviction, a civil matter.

rubberdiddies

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes, the landlord is supposed to give notice of arrears then start eviction proceedings.

But that not protection for the landlord. That's no use to him when he hasn't been able to pay the mortgage for 3 months and and the bank initiates proceedings against him. Where's the protection there?

Yes of course he shouldn't have changed the locks but seriously the regulations need to change drastically. We all know that tenants don't have to pay rent these days if they decide not to.

Zillah

rubberdiddies wrote: »

Absolutely zero.
Any tenant can suddenly decide not to pay rent and get up to 3 months rent free before moving on to screw over another landlord.

Landlord has no enforceable rights.

Everyone on this thread suggesting that the tenant go all guns blazing and screw the landlord for thousands in compo should have a think about the type of person they are.

The OP admitted that the tenants haven't paid rent for at least 6 weeks. To me there is no difference there to walking into a shop and stealing something every day for 6 weeks. You can dress it up whatever way you want but it's stealing.

There are rules in place for this sort of thing. You cannot lock someone out of their home and hold all of their possessions ransom because you have a grievance with them. It is outlandish behaviour and the landlord should be punished for it, even if he has a valid grievance, he isn't allowed to arbitrarily turn someone's life upside down. That can have drastic and immediate consequences.

Shadylou

What does he expect you to do about your belongings? If it was me I'd gain entry even if it's only to get my stuff

davo10

Just pay the rent or move out, people should stop expecting others to give them a hand out (free roof over your head), this kind of thing really pisses me off, the tenants have more rights than the guy who owns the property and isn't being paid.

They should change the law to allow deadbeat tenants to have their asses kicked out if they don't pay the rent they are contracted to pay. This guy admits that no rent has been paid for six weeks and then feels hard done by when the owner denies him use of the service he isn't paying for, the law truly is an ass.

Zillah

davo10 wrote: »

Just pay the rent, stop expecting people to give you a hand out (free roof over your head), this kind of thing really pisses me off, the tenants have more rights than the guy who owns the property and isn't being paid.

They should change the law to allow deadbeat tenants to have their asses kicked out if they don't pay the rent they are contracted to pay. This guy admits that no rent has been paid for six weeks and then feels hard done by when the owner denies him use of the service he isn't paying for, the law truly is an ass.

This isn't their broadband package we're talking about, it's their home, their possessions. The building doesn't belong to them, but they live there. There are procedures for evicting someone, you don't just get to throw them out onto the street because they are in arrears.

dmrules

he still has their deposit ...can he use it against the money they own?

Markcheese

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Seems the guards he called did not know they law. But that is no surprise in Ireland.

Is it not a civil case ... Not really a Garda issue then...

davo10

Zillah wrote: »

This isn't their broadband package we're talking about, it's their home, their possessions. The building doesn't belong to them, but they live there. There are procedures for evicting someone, you don't just get to throw them out onto the street because they are in arrears.

It isn't their property and it should be their home only as long as they abide by the terms of their contract, they are paying (or not in this case) to rent it, 6 weeks is a long time without paying rent. The owner should not be out of pocket because the tenants circumstances have changed. I understand that this may be an administrative error on SW's part and that rent "may" be paid but how long should this be allowed to go on for, a month? Two months? Six?. As others have said, a problem now exists that it is too difficult for LLs to evict tenants who can't/won't pay.

fash

rubberdiddies wrote: »

Absolutely zero.
Any tenant can suddenly decide not to pay rent and get up to 3 months rent free before moving on to screw over another landlord.

Landlord has no enforceable rights.

Everyone on this thread suggesting that the tenant go all guns blazing and screw the landlord for thousands in compo should have a think about the type of person they are.

The OP admitted that the tenants haven't paid rent for at least 6 weeks. To me there is no difference there to walking into a shop and stealing something every day for 6 weeks. You can dress it up whatever way you want but it's stealing.

The landlord has enforceable rights- he merely needs to follow procedure to get them enforced.
It can take 10 months to enforce- 2 1/2 months for notice, 6 months to go to prtb, and then actual enforcement of the award through the courts if necessary if the tenant fails to respond.

davo10

fash wrote: »

The landlord has enforceable rights- he merely needs to follow procedure to get them enforced.
It can take 10 months to enforce- 2 1/2 months for notice, 6 months to go to prtb, and then actual enforcement of the award through the courts if necessary if the tenant fails to respond.

All the while the tenant isn't paying rent? Marvellous for free loading tenants. Now you know why LLs are becoming more choosy, why they want references from previous LLs and current employers and why many will not accept RA.

fash

davo10 wrote: »

All the while the tenant isn't paying rent?

Yeah-that's the law. The landlord can of course ask for a bigger deposit.

rubberdiddies

fash wrote: »

The landlord has enforceable rights- he merely needs to follow procedure to get them enforced.
It can take 10 months to enforce- 2 1/2 months for notice, 6 months to go to prtb, and then actual enforcement of the award through the courts if necessary if the tenant fails to respond.

10 months is a long time. Bank can foreclose in that time.

That's the entire problem here. It shouldn't take 10+ months. There should be immediate results for both tenant (in the case where landlord is acting incorrectly) and landlord, in cases where they aren't getting paid.

It's cases such as this that put LLs off accepting SW tenants, and it's completely understandable. If there was a rapid resolution system in place then it would help to eliminate the risk of taking any type of tenant. Surely that would be a win win for renting for everyone

dmrules

they thought about locksmith but landlord is a nut case... he owns a riffle and already told them that he will kill their dog if he sees him on his property again( landlord lives next door) they just afraid...

Engine No.9

rubberdiddies wrote: »

So do you agree that they should live there rent free?

No! Everybody runs into trouble at some stage or other when you pay for stuff in instalments. Businesses that don't honour the Force Majeure clause of standard contracts really shouldn't be in business.

rubberdiddies

Shadylou wrote: »

No doubt this will be closed soon as it shows the landlord in a bad light and this forum seems to be mostly landlords. The OP is looking for constructive advice not condemnation. What I would say is that the landlord acted illegally, there is a process to be followed and he messed up. I would hope that the landlord would allow them to collect their stuff and use their deposit towards the rent they owe

There's no doubt the LL acted incorrectly here but his frustration is understandable. Also don't forget we are only hearing one side to this story.

The whole system needs to be overhauled.

As for advice to the OP.....
Go through the PRTB, though expect to wait months. However let them deal with it.
Don't attempt to screw the landlord for compensation. You're both at fault
Move on, try to get alternative accommodation asap

rubberdiddies

pajopearl wrote: »

No! Everybody runs into trouble at some stage or other when you pay for stuff in instalments. Businesses that don't honour the Force Majeure clause of standard contracts really shouldn't be in business.

If the LL in this case was a business the. I would agree with you. But I'm guessing that like the majority of LLs, they are private individuals not protected by company law

Engine No.9

dmrules wrote: »

they thought about locksmith but landlord is a nut case... he owns a riffle and already told them that he will kill their dog if he sees him on his property again( landlord lives next door) they just afraid...

The landlord has threatened them with violence??? Time to get the law involved, especially considering it involves firearms.

The_Morrigan

dmrules wrote: »

they thought about locksmith but landlord is a nut case... he owns a riffle and already told them that he will kill their dog if he sees him on his property again( landlord lives next door) they just afraid...

Get them to call the gardai to ensure they are aware of that threat - that is within their remit.

fash

rubberdiddies wrote: »

Don't attempt to screw the landlord for compensation. You're both at fault
Move on, try to get alternative accommodation asap

As a landlord, I say screw the landlord- that is not acceptable behaviour from him, it is illegal and the state views it as behaviour deserving punishment with 5 figure sum fines for a reason.

Engine No.9

rubberdiddies wrote: »

If the LL in this case was a business the. I would agree with you. But I'm guessing that like the majority of LLs, they are private individuals not protected by company law

And therein lies the problem. Too many pensions tied up in property. Their only interest is paying the mortgage and not running it like the business it should be. Landlords in this country haven't a clue about property management.

foggy_lad

rubberdiddies wrote: »

But that not protection for the landlord. That's no use to him when he hasn't been able to pay the mortgage for 3 months and and the bank initiates proceedings against him. Where's the protection there?

Yes of course he shouldn't have changed the locks but seriously the regulations need to change drastically. We all know that tenants don't have to pay rent these days if they decide not to.

rubberdiddies wrote: »

10 months is a long time. Bank can foreclose in that time.

That's the entire problem here. It shouldn't take 10+ months. There should be immediate results for both tenant (in the case where landlord is acting incorrectly) and landlord, in cases where they aren't getting paid.

It's cases such as this that put LLs off accepting SW tenants, and it's completely understandable. If there was a rapid resolution system in place then it would help to eliminate the risk of taking any type of tenant. Surely that would be a win win for renting for everyone

The landlords mortgage and finance situation are nothing to do with any tenants they may have and only a total cowboy would rely on the next months rent to pay the bank!

rubberdiddies wrote: »

So do you agree that they should live there rent free?

There are procedures in place for the landlord to follow and he would/should have been aware of these before renting out any property!

Any landlord that does not take into account that rent can sometimes be late or stop altogether should sell up and get out of the rental business.

ted1

Have you proof he changed locks. Perhaps as money was tight he just failed to maintain them.
Pay your rent and I'm sure he can fix them.

Just as a FYI its worth lanflords while putting in a clause that failure to pay rent when due implies that the tenant wishes to terminate lease. land lord may provide packing assistance will be provided. Deposit shall be forefitted if clause is invoked as minimum notice period shall not be given

rubberdiddies

pajopearl wrote: »

And therein lies the problem. Too many pensions tied up in property. Their only interest is paying the mortgage and not running it like the business it should be. Landlords in this country haven't a clue about property management.

The other side to that coin is that if the "pension landlords" didn't exist there would be thousands of people homeless

foggy_lad

dmrules wrote: »

they thought about locksmith but landlord is a nut case... he owns a riffle and already told them that he will kill their dog if he sees him on his property again( landlord lives next door) they just afraid...

They should immediately report this threat to the Gardai and make a statement and ensure that the Gardai visit this thug and remove any weapons in his possession! He should not be allowed hold any firearms licence if making threats like that!

rubberdiddies

foggy_lad wrote: »

The landlords mortgage and finance situation are nothing to do with any tenants they may have and only a total cowboy would rely on the next months rent to pay the mortgage.

I'm in total agreement that the LL in this case is in the wrong but you do remember the bubble followed by the recession, right?

The landlords who do rely on the rent to pay the next months rent don't exactly have a choice, particularly if they are unemployed. Not sure how someone who bought a property in 2006 and has since list their job can be considered a cowboy

ted1

dmrules wrote: »

they thought about locksmith but landlord is a nut case... he owns a riffle and already told them that he will kill their dog if he sees him on his property again( landlord lives next door) they just afraid...

Is the house on the grounds of the land lords house? He could also stop access.

Engine No.9

rubberdiddies wrote: »

The other side to that coin is that if the "pension landlords" didn't exist there would be thousands of people homeless

Which.is where social housing comes into play.

foggy_lad

ted1 wrote: »

Have you proof he changed locks. Perhaps as money was tight he just failed to maintain them.
Pay your rent and I'm sure he can fix them.

Just as a FYI its worth lanflords while putting in a clause that failure to pay rent when due implies that the tenant wishes to terminate lease. land lord may provide packing assistance will be provided. Deposit shall be forefitted if clause is invoked as minimum notice period shall not be given

ted1 wrote: »

Is the house on the grounds of the land lords house? He could also stop access.

All this would be just as illegal as changing the locks. Maybe you should read the residential tenancies act.

fash

ted1 wrote: »

Have you proof he changed locks. Perhaps as money was tight he just failed to maintain them.
Pay your rent and I'm sure he can fix them.

Just as a FYI its worth lanflords while putting in a clause that failure to pay rent when due implies that the tenant wishes to terminate lease. land lord may provide packing assistance will be provided. Deposit shall be forefitted if clause is invoked as minimum notice period shall not be given

Unlikely to work as a strategy- since it at a minimum indirectly goes against the act and arguably directly goes against the act. At best you can create a "presumption" to avoid the direct conflict with the act-but all it would take is for the tenant to say "actually I'm not leaving" to remove the presumption.

ted1

foggy_lad wrote: »

All this would be just as illegal as changing the locks. Maybe you should read the residential tenancies act.

Tell me what part is illegal?

ted1

fash wrote: »

Unlikely to work as a strategy- since it at a minimum indirectly goes against the act and arguably directly goes against the act. At best you can create a "presumption" to avoid the direct conflict with the act-but all it would take is for the tenant to say "actually I'm not leaving" to remove the presumption.

Contract Law allows implied clauses

ectoraige

foggy_lad wrote: »

They should immediately report this threat to the Gardai and make a statement and ensure that the Gardai visit this thug and remove any weapons in his possession! He should not be allowed hold any firearms licence if making threats like that!

Just to stress this again, local Gardaí need to be hear of the threat made, forget about the other issues when talking to them, they need to be aware a firearms holder is making threats.

foggy_lad

ted1 wrote: »

Tell me what part is illegal?

The clauses you suggest won't be enforceable and preventing access on what would be a right of way enshrined in the lease agreement won't go well for you either! just ask Pat Kenny.

Read up on the act yourself, It might save you thousands in compensation payments!

zom

rubberdiddies wrote: »

To me there is no difference there to walking into a shop and stealing something every day for 6 weeks. You can dress it up whatever way you want but it's stealing.

To be absolutely clear - stealing something to eat for hungry-dying family. Living in the accommodation is need, not a fancy thing.

The_Morrigan

ted1 wrote: »

Contract Law allows implied clauses

This is why we don't allow legal advice here!

/Mod

Contract law may allow for implied clauses, however, it also allows for a contract to be voidable, if it contains clauses that are unfavourable or contrary to law. You cannot draft a legal document that takes rights away from a person, that is not to say that both parties cannot agree to a mutually beneficial arrangement upon termination of the lease (shorter notice period for instance), but it cannot be decided unilaterally by the landlord.

ted1

The_Morrigan wrote: »

This is why we don't allow legal advice here!

/Mod

Contract law may allow for implied clauses, however, it also allows for a contract to be voidable, if it contains clauses that are unfavourable or contrary to law. You cannot draft a legal document that takes rights away from a person, that is not to say that both parties cannot agree to a mutually beneficial arrangement upon termination of the lease (shorter notice period for instance), but it cannot be decided unilaterally by the landlord.

What I said also helps the tenant. The landlord will not chase them for remaining rent of lease period. It is off mutual benefit

The_Morrigan

ted1 wrote: »

What I said also helps the tenant. The landlord will not chase them for remaining rent of lease period. It is off mutual benefit

If that was written into a lease it wouldn't be enforceable - that isn't how the law works.

dmrules

I am not trying to defend them ( they did not pay the rent, but i know for sure thats a mistake by Social Welfere and its gonna be rectified) ...its just the case of locking them out of their house...