Goading

Riskymove

I wanted to see what people felt about this issue given, imo, how widespread it appears to be

at a game not so long ago, I think a Munster HEC game the TMO was asked to look at an incident after a scuffle broke out.

He decided that while an opposition player should be yellow carded for his actions, a Munster player should also be yellow carded for "goading" the player and basically provoking him. This was in the form of patting on the head.

Then recently we had the French guy get in trouble for sarcastically clapping Alain Rolland after getting a yellow card, apparantly he felt he had been provoked and that this was ignored.

Is this goading actually an offence? If so, it seems to be rarely acknoweldged.

It seems to happen constantly now in games especially around scrums and right in front of officials. It often results in aggro etc.

Is this something that should be looked at or clamped down on?

Podge_irl

I assume it come under unsportmanlike conduct.

I ****ing hate it.

Neil3030

I may be going a bit over the top here but players who sarcastically pat opponents on the head should be red carded and then murdered in front of their children.

duckysauce

Should be an instant yellow.

ScissorPaperRock

Neil3030 wrote: »

I may be going a bit over the top here but players who sarcastically pat opponents on the head should be red carded and then murdered in front of their children.

Firm but fair.

keith16

It's horrible and has no place in the sport. Should look at penalty reversals as a means to punish.

Gracelessly Tom

duckysauce wrote: »

Should be an instant yellow.

I agree 100%, it's a low and despicable act which serves no purpose bar to coax an opposition player into giving away a further penalty immediately or in the coming few minutes of play.

Either that or it's one player acting the cvnt basically.

Another option would be the goaded gets to give the goader a punch in the face, would stamp it out fairly quickly! :P

Yeah_Right

I hate the patting of opposition players on the head or clapping them when they screw up but I do appreciate a good sledge or 2. Something smart, that really pisses the opposition off is good and has a place in the game.

pickarooney

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I hate the patting of opposition players on the head or clapping them when they screw up but I do appreciate a good sledge or 2. Something smart, that really pisses the opposition off is good and has a place in the game.

Yeah, it would be great to have a goading commission who could rule on 'quality burn' versus 'being an arsehole'.

Tox56

Give them a warning to cut it out and if they do it again unleash the penalty reversal/yellow card/red card/murdered in front of your children punishments (delete where applicable).

That's what happened in that Munster game, Cronin did it once and was warned, when he did if again he only had himself to blame

molloyjh

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

I agree 100%, it's a low and despicable act which serves no purpose bar to coax an opposition player into giving away a further penalty immediately or in the coming few minutes of play.

Either that or it's one player acting the cvnt basically.

Another option would be the goaded gets to give the goader a punch in the face, would stamp it out fairly quickly! :P

I'm in 2 minds on this one.

Of course it is poor form and should be dealt with. Reversing of penalty decisions would be perfect.

On the other hand the player on the receiving end should be able to handle it and shouldn't be reacting. Thumping someone in the head is not a reasonable or acceptable response.

If there was a penalty offence followed by goading that was ignored then card the player doing the goading and reverse the penalty. If there was a penalty offence followed by goading followed by a response then card both players and leave the original penalty stand (double reversal).

That way players would be wary of goading in the first place because it could lead to a yellow and the penalty reversed. It also provides an incentive for players not to react, which will further reduce goading in itself. After all if there's no reaction what's the point, especially when you run the risk of being carded.

gucci

pickarooney wrote: »

Yeah, it would be great to have a goading commission who could rule on 'quality burn' versus 'being an arsehole'.

I would like to apply for a place on that panel, I am sure I can use my back catelogue of witty internet forum based comments to endorse my application!

.ak

It's called sledging, isn't it?

I think it's poor form, but there's defo different levels of it, like the odd pat on the head for giving away a penalty isn't too bad, but when players run in to heckle them then that's really bad form, for example.

chris85

I am trying to remember a match a few weeks back which there was a lot of goading. I think it was a 6 nations game but not clear about that. I remember being surprised the ref didn't do anything about it as was happening clearly in front of him.

Yeah_Right

.ak wrote: »

It's called sledging, isn't it?

I think it's poor form, but there's defo different levels of it, like the odd pat on the head for giving away a penalty isn't too bad, but when players run in to heckle them then that's really bad form, for example.

A couple of the great ones that I have heard of were Sean Fitzpatrick nicknaming Phil Kearns "Lightening" in one of his first test matches because he couldn't hit the same place twice in a line-out. Kearns said it destroyed his confidence.
Another was Gregan saying "4 more years boys" to the All Blacks towards the end of the 2003 RWC semi-final.
Those are subtle, clever and not obvious to spectators so I have no issue with them.

pickarooney

Rob Kearney's smile at Phillips?

I ain't sayin' he's a-goadin' or
He's that much better than Ben Foden or
Mike Brown or Delon Armitage... actually scratch that

CatFromHue

Verbals will always be there, nothing you can do about it, they're human nature.

Coming into a breakdown after a penalty has been awarded to pat someone on the head is cheap and should be punished really. It looks bad for the game and I think is the only thing people have a problem with.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

Verbals will always be there, nothing you can do about it, they're human nature.

Coming into a breakdown after a penalty has been awarded to pat someone on the head is cheap and should be punished really. It looks bad for the game and I think is the only thing people have a problem with.

100% agree. Its the difference between being cheeky and acting like a c**t

thomond2006

What Adam Jones did should be a reversed penalty with a final team warning from the referee to the captain that a subsequent action carries a yellow card.

Yeah_Right

thomond2006 wrote: »

What Adam Jones did should be a reversed penalty with a final team warning from the referee to the captain that a subsequent action carries a yellow card.

I missed it. What did he do?

Burgo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I missed it. What did he do?

Gave Picamoles a pat on the head before he got a yellow.
Here it is:

who_me

Yeah_Right wrote: »

100% agree. Its the difference between being cheeky and acting like a c**t

Sounds incredibly arbitrary to me. "Players on my team are cheeky, players on their team are *****". I don't think it's really possible for a referee to differentiate between the two in any kind of fair or consistent manner.

Riskymove

who_me wrote: »

Sounds incredibly arbitrary to me. "Players on my team are cheeky, players on their team are *****". I don't think it's really possible for a referee to differentiate between the two in any kind of fair or consistent manner.

I think he meant that the comments were cheeky but that running in to pat heads was going too far

wp_rathead

Tox56 wrote: »

That's what happened in that Munster game, Cronin did it once and was warned, when he did if again he only had himself to blame

Was Munster v Connacht and Cronin taps each one of Connacht front row on head after ref penalises Connacht and White loses it and pushes Cronin in the face - both get binned as Cronin had been at Duffy earlier in game

I can't stand it

razorblunt

thomond2006 wrote: »

What Adam Jones did should be a reversed penalty with a final team warning from the referee to the captain that a subsequent action carries a yellow card.

Most recent example that came into my head too, Jones is always at it.
I agree "sledging" and it's ilk has a place in the game but that sort of carry on doesn't.
I remember JP Pieterson pushing Denton's face into the ground after he tackled him into touch in Murrayfield. That you can almost make sense of as it was a winger putting an oncoming 8 into the turf, still don't think that's ideal but forgivable in the circumstances.

Problem is if you start pinging goading properly do you extend to Armitage, North ... swan dives?

Shelflife

Goading and sledging have no place in the game, where do you draw the line? can you cast desperations about his personal life? his wife? his children ? where does it stop?

they have but one purpose, to put a player off his game, its unsportsmanlike conduct and should be dealt with immediately by the officials. It creates flash points that lead to fights and tempers been raised, no good comes of it.

For me its a warning, 2nd time pen, 3rd time pen and YC, this can be escalated if I believe that its done with the explicit intention of inciting a violent response.

Molester Stallone

It's all about psychologically destroying your opponent. If he makes a mistake, you hammer it home, twist the knife so to speak. It almost always works, if you provoke a reaction from your opponent, he loses. Be it a yellow card or a penalty. And if you get under their skin once, you can do it again
It's not nice, it should be punished, but you can understand why some players do it

Grimebox

Times have changed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fleEQ3srog

Swiwi.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

A couple of the great ones that I have heard of were Sean Fitzpatrick nicknaming Phil Kearns "Lightening" in one of his first test matches because he couldn't hit the same place twice in a line-out. Kearns said it destroyed his confidence.
Another was Gregan saying "4 more years boys" to the All Blacks towards the end of the 2003 RWC semi-final.
Those are subtle, clever and not obvious to spectators so I have no issue with them.

I don't think 4 more years was particularly subtle...

bilston

chris85 wrote: »

I am trying to remember a match a few weeks back which there was a lot of goading. I think it was a 6 nations game but not clear about that. I remember being surprised the ref didn't do anything about it as was happening clearly in front of him.

You are probably talking about the Wales France game.

I remember during our GS game in '09 one of the Welsh players patting an Irish player on the head right in front of Barnes and he did nothing about it NZ yet in the second half DOC patted Phillips on the was after he knocked the ball in and Barnes gave Wales a penalty which they kicked and of course almost won the game.

Two things from that...

1) Horrendously inconsistent officiating
2) Goading almost cost Ireland a piece of history - is it worth it? Well maybe with some players, if you manage to get under the skin of say Mike Phillips you are onto a winner. Half backs, younger players and volatile characters in particular are probably most susceptible to this. It isn't pleasant but you can see why teams might do it.

FrannoFan

verbals ok contact(such as patting heads) isn't?

really a bizarre debate going on here.

have to join in all the same, the Welsh were awful for it when they were losing to us and when they were beating the French but that was as much niggle as goading(dirty elbow on Jackson-amazed wasn't looked at by citing commissioner) similar behaviour v french at final whistle.

siltirocker

wprathead wrote: »

Was Munster v Connacht and Cronin taps each one of Connacht front row on head after ref penalises Connacht and White loses it and pushes Cronin in the face - both get binned as Cronin had been at Duffy earlier in game

I can't stand it

I don't think they were directly related.

Cronin was warned about the nature of his sledging (personal/unrelated to rugby) by the referee. He then did it again and was yellow carded.

My shock of the season thus far was how Cronin wasn't cited for punching Gavin Duffy in the back of the skull a few times when the ref wasn't looking.

Yeah_Right

Swiwi. wrote: »

I don't think 4 more years was particularly subtle...

Ok not subtle. Lets call it iconic. Then at the semi-final of the 2011 RWC, the crowd is chanting 4 more years Gregan actually said he never thought that sledge would come back to bite him./ the Wallabies.

Evan DietrichSmith

who_me wrote: »

Sounds incredibly arbitrary to me. "Players on my team are cheeky, players on their team are *****". I don't think it's really possible for a referee to differentiate between the two in any kind of fair or consistent manner.

The Mods here can do it!!!

philstar

is showboating classed as goading?? rubbing someone's nose in it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnIKCpHmVwM

that one thing i admire about stuart lancaster he has no time for Ashton's nonsense

Gambas

Goading is sledging for the inarticulate (props, basically).

And since Gregans 'Four more years, Byron' there is no justification for sledging. Perfection has been attained, and anything else just lowers the tone of the game.

Gambas

philstar wrote: »

is showboating classed as goading?? rubbing someone's nose in it....

I never considered running the length of the field, around and past the opposition to be showboating?

Buer

I think we need to peek over the fence to cricket to see how clevel/cruel sledging really can be! When you're standing for 7 hours a few feet away from a bloke, you have to pass the time somehow.

philstar

Gambas wrote: »

I never considered running the length of the field, around and past the opposition to be showboating?

i mean the habit Ashton has of diving over the line for nearly every try he scores, its a bit dickheaded

Gambas

Buer wrote: »

I think we need to peek over the fence to cricket to see how clevel/cruel sledging really can be! When you're standing for 7 hours a few feet away from a bloke, you have to pass the time somehow.

In an Ashes match Botham arrived at the wicket to a bit of cheek from the Aussie keeper. Marsh : "So how's your wife and my kid's?".
Botham: "Wife's fine. Kid's are retarded".

http://top20cricketsledges.blogspot.ie/

Buer

philstar wrote: »

that one thing i admire about stuart lancaster he has no time for Ashton's nonsense

Lancaster has given Ashton 19 starts. He has a lot of time for him; he should have dropped him previously when he was playing poorly. Now that he's actually playing well again he can't get back in the side.

pickarooney

The English Zebo.

Buer

Gambas wrote: »

In an Ashes match Botham arrived at the wicket to a bit of cheek from the Aussie keeper. Marsh : "So how's your wife and my kid's?".
Botham: "Wife's fine. Kid's are retarded".

http://top20cricketsledges.blogspot.ie/

My favourite isn't on that list.

Eddo Brandes from Zimbabwe was walking out to the crease and Glenn McGrath shouts "Why the hell are you so fat?"

Brandes, without hesitation, replies "Everytime I f*ck your wife she gives me a biscuit".

Shelflife

Showboating if done to humiliate or goad a player or team will result in a warning and then a pen for me.

Its unsportmanlike behaviour. I had an U15 game a few years back, blue team winning easily started the whole running tries in backwards and running over to the touchline to give the kicker practice lark.

Called in the capt and also had a word with the coach that it wouldnt be tolerated anymore.

**** like that only leads to flash points and should be managed.Teams need to be good winners as well as good losers.

Yeah_Right

Shelflife wrote: »

Showboating if done to humiliate or goad a player or team will result in a warning and then a pen for me.

Its unsportmanlike behaviour. I had an U15 game a few years back, blue team winning easily started the whole running tries in backwards and running over to the touchline to give the kicker practice lark.

Called in the capt and also had a word with the coach that it wouldnt be tolerated anymore.

**** like that only leads to flash points and should be managed.Teams need to be good winners as well as good losers.

Stuff like that in a kids game shouldn't be tolerated. Its up to the coaches and refs to make sure it doesn't happen.

A bit of sledging in professional games is fine. The problem with showboating is if you screw it up, you look like an absolute tool. There must be dozens of examples in all sorts of different sports where a player has done a bit of showboating and been made to look foolish. And I love it when that happens

Foxtrol

The problem is a lot of the time people can be even more hypocritical with this stuff than they are with other aspects of the game: for showboating if it’s their player ‘he’s only enjoying his rugby’ while the opposition it’s ‘he’s an arrogant pr1ick’ or for sledging their player is ‘so clever, really good at playing mind games’ while opposition ‘he’s a disgrace, it has no place in the game’.

IMO there should be zero tolerance for sledging (starting with a penalty and moving on to cards), the ref obviously isn’t going to hear most of it but stuff like head patting will be caught most of the time.

The_Captain

When you're playing against a cocky young confidence-player outhalf, hit him like a tonne of bricks a few times, then mess up his hair when he sits up and lay on something like "Don't worry son, you'll bulk up one day"

Then sit back and watch when he starts trying to force the game with a big angry head on him and starts making mistakes

It's not nice, but this isn't sewing club. You'll get worse than head-rubbing in every ruck, and you're expected to get up and jog it off.