Pushed out of the market

Marchbride

Makes for interesting reading. This is what I was trying to say yest in another post. Middle class are being priced out of market in certain parts of Dublin.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/no-homes-for-middle-earners-in-capital-city-30033844.html

moxin

As another famous bull poster here said before, you'll have to buy in the "lower class" areas or simply move to a commuter town

godtabh

or rent?

snubbleste

godtabh wrote: »

or rent?

The horror! :eek:

average_runner

Marchbride wrote: »

Makes for interesting reading. This is what I was trying to say yest in another post. Middle class are being priced out of market in certain parts of Dublin.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/no-homes-for-middle-earners-in-capital-city-30033844.html

If they are been priced out, then either the buyers aren't middle class or the area is not middle class anymore.
Simple really

marathonic

The market dropped by well over half before turning. If they could previously afford but are now priced out, it's their own fault. They should have bought in 2012/3 when they could afford to buy instead of waiting on the expectation of further falls.

If prices fall significantly and come within your grasp, you should buy instead of waiting in the hope of saving another €10k. You might never see such savings and if you do, it equates to about €50 per month on a mortgage - significantly less than a single increase in rent. A home is a home after all.

I suspect that we'll see many more of these "I waited because I wanted to buy in an area I couldn't afford and now I'm priced out of any area I'm willing to live".

redbaron_99

I can never understand the stigma attached to renting in this country. My girlfriend and I have been renting a beautiful four bedroom semi-d in a very nice area of Dublin for years. The rest of our friends have all purchased their homes, most in serious negative equity, they all live in the far reaches of Dublin county, and are all miserable, yet they still give us the line of: "You're mad - renting is dead money".

and giving it to the bank to pay interest isn't...?

average_runner

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I can never understand the stigma attached to renting in this country. My girlfriend and I have been renting a beautiful four bedroom semi-d in a very nice area of Dublin for years. The rest of our friends have all purchased their homes, most in serious negative equity, they all live in the far reaches of Dublin county, and are all miserable, yet they still give us the line of: "You're mad - renting is dead money".

and giving it to the bank to pay interest isn't...?

You might be a renting a nice 4 bed but you have no assurance that you be there next year, you can't do what you want to the house to make it your home because there is no long term rent agreements like in europe.

Negative Equity means nothing if your not selling. You bought the house at a price you thought it was worth at the time.

Also your paying someone else's interest to the bank!

Idbatterim

The market dropped by well over half before turning. If they could previously afford but are now priced out, it's their own fault. They should have bought in 2012/3 when they could afford to buy instead of waiting on the expectation of further falls.

If prices fall significantly and come within your grasp, you should buy instead of waiting in the hope of saving another €10k. You might never see such savings and if you do, it equates to about €50 per month on a mortgage - significantly less than a single increase in rent. A home is a home after all.

I suspect that we'll see many more of these "I waited because I wanted to buy in an area I couldn't afford and now I'm priced out of any area I'm willing to live".

Totally agree with this, no I wasnt in a posititon to buy, but I remember at one stage, probably about 2010, 2011, good houses in my area, Dublin 14, were at one stage so bloody cheap, how much further could they really fall, and if they did, it wouldnt be the end of the world. buying a house for 300k and have it lose 10%, is very different to 800 or 900k at 10%, which is what these houses were getting. I would have jumped in at 300k, at that stage to hell with it if they dropped further, once its a long term home and you are happy there. Of course money is important, but its not absolutely everything...

redbaron_99

average_runner wrote: »

You might be a renting a nice 4 bed but you have no assurance that you be there next year, you can't do what you want to the house to make it your home because there is no long term rent agreements like in europe.

Negative Equity means nothing if your not selling. You bought the house at a price you thought it was worth at the time.

Also your paying someone else's interest to the bank!

Well, thanks for picking out the negatives of renting a home. Personally I have an agreement with the landlord that I can make changes to the house, as long as I let them know about it. Although, that's not not the norm.
Most of my friends didn't buy their homes with a view to living in them long term. They bought to get on "the property ladder". And had no plans to stay in them long term, and hate that they are now stuck in areas that they dislike.

Fair enough, the landlord can opt not to renew my lease, but that's fine with me. There are plenty of nice houses to rent.
And that works both ways! I actually like that I'm not tied down to anything long term, because, God forbid, I might lose my job, I am not restricted to searching for new employment within a certain area.

It works for me. It works for a lot of people. It doesn't work for everyone.
You have a different opinion, fair enough.
:cool:

ted1

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Well, thanks for picking out the negatives of renting a home. Personally I have an agreement with the landlord that I can make changes to the house, as long as I let them know about it. Although, that's not not the norm.
Most of my friends didn't buy their homes with a view to living in them long term. They bought to get on "the property ladder". And had no plans to stay in them long term, and hate that they are now stuck in areas that they dislike.

Fair enough, the landlord can opt not to renew my lease, but that's fine with me. There are plenty of nice houses to rent.
And that works both ways! I actually like that I'm not tied down to anything long term, because, God forbid, I might lose my job, I am not restricted to searching for new employment within a certain area.

It works for me. It works for a lot of people. It doesn't work for everyone.
You have a different opinion, fair enough.
:cool:

My issue with Rent, is that you don't own the place.

When i finish paying my mortgage in 20 years I'll be under 55 and have 10 working years left, I can then top up my pension instead of paying rent or mortgage.

If i'm renting I have to pay rent till the day i retire, and then either find an new income or move as i'll have to continue paying rent.

I could also sell the house and move to the sun, live off the difference between house and house purchases or rent when i'm living away.

ted1

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I can never understand the stigma attached to renting in this country. My girlfriend and I have been renting a beautiful four bedroom semi-d in a very nice area of Dublin for years. The rest of our friends have all purchased their homes, most in serious negative equity, they all live in the far reaches of Dublin county, and are all miserable, yet they still give us the line of: "You're mad - renting is dead money".

and giving it to the bank to pay interest isn't...?

But at the end of the the mortgage term you own the property and can sell it or continue living there without any rent or mortgage.
so after paying rent for 1,500 for 20 years in rent you have spent 360,000
but after paying a mortgage of 1,500 for 20 years you have asset that may be worth 180+.

each year after the 20 years the rent spends 18,000 where as the owner pays nothing.

who_ru

Isn't the problem access to credit coupled with a chronic lack of supply? It's hard to imagine a more perfect storm for the first time buyer looking to buy in Dublin. Bidding contests back in full swing, poor quality property in many areas requiring major renovation.

Larbre34

Its quite funny to imagine there will be small cohort of people who bought in 2013/14 in Dublin who will find themselves in newly negative equity by 2017 or so. Whats happening now in Dublin is a mini-bubble created by warped market conditions. When the cash buyers run out and de-strangulated supply resumes, those price gains will ebb away once again. The fundamentals to a housing market level, ie buying power (salaries) and credit (still crunched) do not equate with prices just now. 2012 values were about right in Dublin, out to 2020 at least.

redbaron_99

Different strokes for different folks. It suits me.

murphaph

Cash buyers just as likely to be foreign investors so long as the rental yields hold up.

ted1

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its quite funny to imagine there will be small cohort of people who bought in 2013/14 in Dublin who will find themselves in newly negative equity by 2017 or so. Whats happening now in Dublin is a mini-bubble created by warped market conditions. When the cash buyers run out and de-strangulated supply resumes, those price gains will ebb away once again. The fundamentals to a housing market level, ie buying power (salaries) and credit (still crunched) do not equate with prices just now. 2012 values were about right in Dublin, out to 2020 at least.

say there is a 15% drop that 45k on 300.
rent in the 3 years to 2017 will be 54k.

negative equity only affects people when they sell. People should have learnt that they should be buying properties that will suit there needs for longer then 3 years.

lima

ted1 wrote: »

But at the end of the the mortgage term you own the property and can sell it or continue living there without any rent or mortgage.
so after paying rent for 1,500 for 20 years in rent you have spent 360,000
but after paying a mortgage of 1,500 for 20 years you have asset that may be worth 180+.

each year after the 20 years the rent spends 18,000 where as the owner pays nothing.

Eh, the owner pays Interest. He pays rent to the bank.

And while the renter is paying rent, he is also saving, and by 55 he would have a lump sum saved up which he could use to buy a place.

There is also the fact the the renter could have rented in a more desirable location compared to that if he had bought (i.e D3, D4 versus Lusk)

ted1

lima wrote: »

Eh, the owner pays Interest. He pays rent to the bank.

And while the renter is paying rent, he is also saving, and by 55 he would have a lump sum saved up which he could use to buy a place.

There is also the fact the the renter could have rented in a more desirable location compared to that if he had bought (i.e D3, D4 versus Lusk)

Renting is more expensive than a mortgage. how would a person renting save money, if eh manages to then the mortgage holder will save more?
by 55 the person who owns a property will be in a much better position.

average_runner

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Well, thanks for picking out the negatives of renting a home. Personally I have an agreement with the landlord that I can make changes to the house, as long as I let them know about it. Although, that's not not the norm.
Most of my friends didn't buy their homes with a view to living in them long term. They bought to get on "the property ladder". And had no plans to stay in them long term, and hate that they are now stuck in areas that they dislike.

Fair enough, the landlord can opt not to renew my lease, but that's fine with me. There are plenty of nice houses to rent.
And that works both ways! I actually like that I'm not tied down to anything long term, because, God forbid, I might lose my job, I am not restricted to searching for new employment within a certain area.

It works for me. It works for a lot of people. It doesn't work for everyone.
You have a different opinion, fair enough.
:cool:

Totally true, we are all different

Frank Lee Midere

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its quite funny to imagine there will be small cohort of people who bought in 2013/14 in Dublin who will find themselves in newly negative equity by 2017 or so. Whats happening now in Dublin is a mini-bubble created by warped market conditions. When the cash buyers run out and de-strangulated supply resumes, those price gains will ebb away once again. The fundamentals to a housing market level, ie buying power (salaries) and credit (still crunched) do not equate with prices just now. 2012 values were about right in Dublin, out to 2020 at least.

Yes, the Independent is a disgrace. Its basically promoting the same crap again, 450K houses which used to be 250K, isn't that great? ( Disguised as concern).

This kind of thing is panicky claptrap:

"In The Park, in Cabinteely, number 10A on Sycamore Close was sold for just €200,000 in April 2013, before it was re-sold for €328,000 just six months later."

Really? I suppose it didn't end up begin expensive anyway ( 328k doesn't exclude the middle classes) but all this is happening with low growth, higher income tax and property tax, increased mortgage arrears and it just isn't going to go on. So whomever bought that will see more negative equity.

Frank Lee Midere

ted1 wrote: »

say there is a 15% drop that 45k on 300.
rent in the 3 years to 2017 will be 54k.

negative equity only affects people when they sell. People should have learnt that they should be buying properties that will suit there needs for longer then 3 years.

People should have learnt to stay out of a bubble.

Ray Palmer

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I can never understand the stigma attached to renting in this country. My girlfriend and I have been renting a beautiful four bedroom semi-d in a very nice area of Dublin for years. The rest of our friends have all purchased their homes, most in serious negative equity, they all live in the far reaches of Dublin county, and are all miserable, yet they still give us the line of: "You're mad - renting is dead money".

and giving it to the bank to pay interest isn't...?

I think you misunderstand how people view it if you see it as stigma. There are real world issues with staying renting. Your pension will need to be much larger in order to do this when you are older.

While you are renting you are also unlikely to get other items of your own like furniture. I know you can rent properties that are not furnished but not many people do.

I find it hard to believe everybody you know who moved way out in the suburbs are all miserable. I can see somebody telling you their woes and also saying you have to buy. It doesn't sound human for a group of people. I can imagine one or two.

In saying that I could never get why so many of my friends moved so far out. It wasn't so much the prices keeping them out there it was their perceived value for money. They were saying I was mad to buy a small house in Dublin when they could get something much bigger further out. Later on many realised the true cost of their commutes and sold up and moved closer. The damage was done as the Dublin house prices rose more than where they lived. So they ended up down sizing where I could upsize as my kept within the Dublin rises. It actually was better because FTB homes rose more than larger properties. For the price of a luxury car we were able to buy a house twice the size in a nicer area. So now my costs are less than theirs but I live in a bigger house closer to employment.

While I get why people say things about not being able to afford in a middle class area means you aren't middle class it is not quite true. Due to the high prices people living in such areas became a lot more mixed. Income no longer was/is the driver value of assets you had/have are the driver. So now you have doctors, lawyers, architects etc... living in what were working class areas and also tradesmen, manual workers, etc... living in areas that were traditionally middle class areas.

lima

ted1 wrote: »

Renting is more expensive than a mortgage. how would a person renting save money, if eh manages to then the mortgage holder will save more?
by 55 the person who owns a property will be in a much better position.

Perhaps, not by much though and not all the time. Also, a renter could have a better quality of life living in a part of a city where a buyer otherwise could't afford. that in itself is priceless.

There is an interesting thread here:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=185724

My rent is less that a mortgage for a similar place in D6, and I save e1200-1500 a month on top of that.

redbaron_99

lima wrote: »

Perhaps, not by much though and not all the time. Also, a renter could have a better quality of life living in a part of a city where a buyer otherwise could't afford. that in itself is priceless.

There is an interesting thread here:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=185724

My rent is less that a mortgage for a similar place in D6, and I save e1200-1500 a month on top of that.

This is the true value of renting for me. Quality of life and a certain amount of freedom. Two things that I value greatly.

But, hey, it's dead money. I'll be worse off when I retire at the age of 68.

Roger_007

Most of the discussion on this is about Dublin prices. The increase in Dublin didn't happen elsewhere so there is good value to be had outside Dublin. The only problem is that there is not much supply either to buy or to rent.
There is an acute shortage of housing in all areas in the east of the country which is not going to be resolved anytime soon. There is very little building going on because builders can't make any profit at present prices.
As economic conditions improve, the shortage of housing will eventually drive prices up everywhere east of the Shannon.

redbaron_99

Roger_007 wrote: »

Most of the discussion on this is about Dublin prices. The increase in Dublin didn't happen elsewhere so there is good value to be had outside Dublin. The only problem is that there is not much supply either to buy or to rent.
There is an acute shortage of housing in all areas in the east of the country which is not going to be resolved anytime soon. There is very little building going on because builders can't make any profit at present prices.
As economic conditions improve, the shortage of housing will eventually drive prices up everywhere east of the Shannon.

I think the heart of the problem is that the cost of living in general is far too high in this country. That in turn means wages are too high, which means there's a shortage of jobs, etc. Ireland took a wrong turn around 15 years ago and have kept going. Sorry for the rant.

ted1

lima wrote: »

Perhaps, not by much though and not all the time. Also, a renter could have a better quality of life living in a part of a city where a buyer otherwise could't afford. that in itself is priceless.

There is an interesting thread here:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=185724

My rent is less that a mortgage for a similar place in D6, and I save e1200-1500 a month on top of that.

No mention of the fact that you have an asset at the end.

My mortgage is about 500 less than rent. ( bought in May 2012)

For people with wife and kids ownership also offers added security

murphaph

lima wrote: »

Eh, the owner pays Interest. He pays rent to the bank.

but the bank won't mind if he paints his living room bright pink

Electric Sheep

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I think the heart of the problem is that the cost of living in general is far too high in this country. That in turn means wages are too high, which means there's a shortage of jobs, etc. Ireland took a wrong turn around 15 years ago and have kept going. Sorry for the rant.

Ireland took a wrong turn a lot longer ago than 15 years.

Pro Hoc Vice

average_runner wrote: »

You might be a renting a nice 4 bed but you have no assurance that you be there next year, you can't do what you want to the house to make it your home because there is no long term rent agreements like in europe.

Negative Equity means nothing if your not selling. You bought the house at a price you thought it was worth at the time.

Also your paying someone else's interest to the bank!

So all these people in arrears http://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/mortgagearrears/Documents/data.xls know where they will be living next year. Negative is a very serious issue if you can not repay the loan.

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

My issue with Rent, is that you don't own the place.

When i finish paying my mortgage in 20 years I'll be under 55 and have 10 working years left, I can then top up my pension instead of paying rent or mortgage.

If i'm renting I have to pay rent till the day i retire, and then either find an new income or move as i'll have to continue paying rent.

I could also sell the house and move to the sun, live off the difference between house and house purchases or rent when i'm living away.

Unless you can't pat the loan. If a loan is affordable and stress tested then fine, what happens if interest rates double in next five years and one income disappears. Have you stress tested for that. A family in a rented house that becomes too expensive can down size with ease.

I am not saying all buying is wrong or all renting is wrong, I am saying each to their own. I also know people who have paid off the home loan, retired and are stuck in a monster of a house they refuse to sell out of a loyalty to the children, so spend a large part of their pension keeping a museum.

MouseTail

The whole renting v buying argument is silly. No one could possibly renting is financially advantageous over buying over the longer term. A rental sector is hugely important in socioeconomic terms, allowing labour market mobility, mixed residential development, immigration, housing for low wage workers, youth independence etc.

However, most middle and higher income people in Ireland choose to buy by family formation stage (some earlier, some later, very few never).

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

Renting is more expensive than a mortgage. how would a person renting save money, if eh manages to then the mortgage holder will save more?
by 55 the person who owns a property will be in a much better position.

For maybe the past year or so rent is equivalent to what a mortgage would be, but interest can rise as well as fall. If interest doubles then a owner is stuck, remember 2008, 2009 etc. People forget way too fast.

Pro Hoc Vice

MouseTail wrote: »

The whole renting v buying argument is silly. No one could possibly renting is financially advantageous over buying over the longer term. A rental sector is hugely important in socioeconomic terms, allowing labour market mobility, mixed residential development, immigration, housing for low wage workers, youth independence etc.

However, most middle and higher income people in Ireland choose to buy by family formation stage (some earlier, some later, very few never).

In Europe most rent because of an excellent system. But the main reason the same people buy in Ireland is that the renting system is so bad compared to buying, it's not that buying of itself is good its just better than really bad.

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

say there is a 15% drop that 45k on 300.
rent in the 3 years to 2017 will be 54k.

negative equity only affects people when they sell. People should have learnt that they should be buying properties that will suit there needs for longer then 3 years.

Just look at boards you will see exactly the same arguments made in 2006, 2007. Negative equity is a very real problem for tens of thousands of families that don't want to sell but are being forced by simple mats to do so.

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

No mention of the fact that you have an asset at the end.

My mortgage is about 500 less than rent. ( bought in May 2012)

For people with wife and kids ownership also offers added security

Yes, you did your home work, there was a real saving allowing a comfort zone. That is a proposition that adds up. But this thread is about the fact that today employed people are bring priced out of certain areas (sounds like something I heard a few years back) if people follow the madness with the buy at all costs (forgive the pun) we are just setting up another fall.

MouseTail

infosys wrote: »

In Europe most rent because of an excellent system. But the main reason the same people buy in Ireland is that the renting system is so bad compared to buying, it's not that buying of itself is good its just better than really bad.

That's actually a bit of a myth, not borne out by the stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

The real shocker in the stats is the low level of high density housing we have. Of all Europeans we have an aversion to apartment living, and some sort of cultural tie to land, albeit a garden of some type, bizarre when you compare our weather to some of those countries. Its not sustainable as we are discovering.

Pro Hoc Vice

MouseTail wrote: »

That's actually a bit of a myth, not borne out by the stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

The real shocker in the stats is the low level of high density housing we have. Of all Europeans we have an aversion to apartment living, and some sort of cultural tie to land, albeit a garden of some type, bizarre when you compare our weather to some of those countries. Its not sustainable as we are discovering.

One of biggest economies in EU Germany 46% France 58% Netherlands 56% Austria 52%

Ireland over 77%. As and old saying goes in Germany they rent their house and buy their TV in Ireland its the other way around. Funny Germany has less than half of their houses owner occupier and they are bailing the rest of Europe out, for a myth they are on the right side of it.

But as quoting wiki is like backing up an argument with crayons and finger painted charts, http://qz.com/167887/germany-has-one-of-the-worlds-lowest-homeownership-rates/

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/mar/19/brits-buy-germans-rent

the_syco

the article wrote:

Rowena Quinn, the owner of Hunters Estate Agents, said that just "two to three years ago" she would have been lucky if a dozen viewers turned up to an open viewing – or if she received a single bid for such properties.

But, she told the Sunday Independent: "Now we would expect up to 50 people to turn up in an hour."

Maybe it's because two or three years ago, everyone was waiting for the bust to level out, and you now get 50 people in as the prices have dropped.

But you'd wonder how many of that 50 have mortgage approval?

ted1

infosys wrote: »

Just look at boards you will see exactly the same arguments made in 2006, 2007. Negative equity is a very real problem for tens of thousands of families that don't want to sell but are being forced by simple mats to do so.

Granted, but its not 2006 or 2007.

Prices are down to a reasonable level.

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

Granted, but its not 2006 or 2007.

Prices are down to a reasonable level.

There are reports of large hikes in certain parts of Dublin, and reasonable is only reasonable if interest rates stay low, if credit remains available or a long as people have access to cash.

Glenbhoy

murphaph wrote: »

Cash buyers just as likely to be foreign investors so long as the rental yields hold up.

Really, I'd love to see some actual proof of this as I really can't see that this would be the case.

Glenbhoy

infosys wrote: »

There are reports of large hikes in certain parts of Dublin, and reasonable is only reasonable if interest rates stay low, if credit remains available or a long as people have access to cash.

Credit is not available, all the stats prove that. Lending in 2013 was 2.5BN, that's not significantly higher than the lending in each quarter of 2009 and is down from an annual total of approx 40Bn in 2006.

ted1

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Really, I'd love to see some actual proof of this as I really can't see that this would be the case.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/property-investment-firm-hibernia-reit-in-67m-deal-1.1694748


Professional land lords entering the market.

MouseTail

ted1 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/property-investment-firm-hibernia-reit-in-67m-deal-1.1694748


Professional land lords entering the market.

There are other established and planned REITs also. Listed on lse as well as ise, whilst there is some Irish cash going in, much appears to be foreign investment.

dinnyirwin

Pushed out of the market. You have to laugh.
I want to buy a house on Howth head. I've been pushed out of the market though.
Guess i'll just have to stick with what i can afford then.

And as a working class person, I always get a laugh out of working class people describing themselves as middle class.

lima

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Pushed out of the market. You have to laugh.
I want to buy a house on Howth head. I've been pushed out of the market though.
Guess i'll just have to stick with what i can afford then.

And as a working class person, I always get a laugh out of working class people describing themselves as middle class.

It seems that it's only in Ireland that people try to bring people down and are never supportive of people wanting better for themselves.

You should see here in the US (where I'm working for a little bit) how positive people are to all people. Same with Australia, with the 'Fair play, Good on you mate' a core part of their culture.

Good on anyone who aspires to be middle class.

lima

MouseTail wrote: »

There are other established and planned REITs also. Listed on lse as well as ise, whilst there is some Irish cash going in, much appears to be foreign investment.

With these RIET's and Kennedy-Wilson types buying blocks of apartments it's clear that the people are always the bottom rung of the ladder in terms of priority for the govt.

However, if all these companies are going to be putting these apts up for rent, will this ease the rental bubble? and as such, will cheaper rent stop cash buyers entering the market, and will this cause prices to fall?

Repossessions may not happen like they should, but if all these little things happen at the same time then maybe this may bring prices down a little more than people expect.

dinnyirwin

lima wrote: »

It seems that it's only in Ireland that people try to bring people down and are never supportive of people wanting better for themselves.

You should see here in the US (where I'm working for a little bit) how positive people are to all people. Same with Australia, with the 'Fair play, Good on you mate' a core part of their culture.

Good on anyone who aspires to be middle class.

Imagine my laughter reading that from one of the most whingey, insulting, name calling, hope you all die, posters ive ever seen on the internet.
You should read back all your own posts.

Nothing wrong with wanting better for yourself. But it looks like a lot of people want to be able to be something that they are not and then cry because they arent.

Put in the work to get the money required to live in your desired area and you will be slapped on the back and told well done. Cry about being priced out of an area you cant afford and you can fuk off and get a life.

And if you aspire to be something, it does not make it so. If you are middle class you are middle class. You are not middle class if you are working class and aspire to be middle class. Nothing wrong with aspirations, but thats all they are until you get there.

So are you middle class or working class yourself? If you are middle class what is that makes you personally middle class?

dinnyirwin

So its been fun but I must say my goodbyes to boards. The The_Morrigan, after some disagreements over the last few weeks has made it clear he doesnt want me here anymore and at last my leg is well enough to go back out into the world and not be bedridden anymore.

Its been fun though. And thankyou all for the brilliant chat over the last few weeks.