Northern Ireland crisis over on the runs

timthumbni

What is others thoughts on the current crisis in Northern Ireland about the "on the runs"

A lot of confusion is going on over this. It appears that close to 200 republicans (I'm assuming republicans) have basically got a get out of jail free card.

This makes the haas talks redundant as well as it appears that the past has already been sorted out for Provos at least.

Does anyone here have any insight into this debacle??? It looks like it has the potential to bring down stormont. Dup are claiming they had no knowledge of it and though it was widely discussed at time of agreement I don't recall much being mentioned since. Tony slime Blair appears to be involved. Now there's a surprise.

Happyman42

I don't know any of the detail, but I do remember OTR's being dealt with at the time of the agreement. Peter wouldn't be trying to look heroic by any chance? If he didn't know about something that obviously had been dealt with(As SF had publicly been making a big deal about it) is there any point complaining now?

karma_

timthumbni wrote: »

What is others thoughts on the current crisis in Northern Ireland about the "on the runs"

A lot of confusion is going on over this. It appears that close to 200 republicans (I'm assuming republicans) have basically got a get out of jail free card.

This makes the haas talks redundant as well as it appears that the past has already been sorted out for Provos at least.

Does anyone here have any insight into this debacle??? It looks like it has the potential to bring down stormont. Dup are claiming they had no knowledge of it and though it was widely discussed at time of agreement I don't recall much being mentioned since. Tony slime Blair appears to be involved. Now there's a surprise.

Well it's not just Blair, the Conservatives also participated according to reports last night.

Again though this is just a case of the DUP throwing their toys out of the pram when they also appear to have had knowledge of this previously. However they can't admit this incase it incenses hardline Loyalism. If the minutes of those sub-committee meetings can prove this then it's going to be majorly embarrassing for Robinson and his party although to be fair they never shy too far away from embarrassing themselves constantly.

Is he really willing to wreck what we have achieved up here just to appeal to hardliners?

timthumbni

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't know any of the detail, but I do remember OTR's being dealt with at the time of the agreement. Peter wouldn't be trying to look heroic by any chance? If he didn't know about something that obviously had been dealt with(As SF had publicly been making a big deal about it) is there any point complaining now?

I also remember them saying they would look into it. I never heard anything else about it to be honest as did anyone else apart from Sinn Fein by the looks of it.

It does seem to put the rest of the justice system in Northern Ireland into shame does it not? How can you prosecute say for example a British army murderer whilst you give a republican murderer a pass??? It doesn't make sense.

timthumbni

karma_ wrote: »

Well it's not just Blair, the Conservatives also participated according to reports last night.

Again though this is just a case of the DUP throwing their toys out of the pram when they also appear to have had knowledge of this previously. However they can't admit this incase it incenses hardline Loyalism. If the minutes of those sub-committee meetings can prove this then it's going to be majorly embarrassing for Robinson and his party although to be fair they never shy too far away from embarrassing themselves constantly.

Is he really willing to wreck what we have achieved up here just to appeal to hardliners?

I will be very interested to see minutes of these meetings. It appears an all around amnesty is on the way. Whether we like it or not.....

Happyman42

timthumbni wrote: »

I also remember them saying they would look into it. I never heard anything else about it to be honest as did anyone else apart from Sinn Fein by the looks of it.

It was a big deal for SF, if they got a deal and nobody else noticed or thought it important enough to object to at the time, whose fault is that?
I seriously doubt that it could have been done secretly, considering these letters where being sent out to a good number of people.

Robinson, knowing that an inquiry won't be given is once again playing the martyr here, he will make plenty of noise, do some damage (that he can live with) and then back down. Classic Unionist version of politics...play to the rabble.

karma_

Interestingly I just did a quick google search and this issue (OTR's) popped up in many articles and sites going back to around 2005 and looks like there were talks of an imminent deal that would address the issue. It also looks like State killers would also benefit from the deal so it could have implications for SF and I'm guessing now there was nothing on the tables for Loyalists which would explain the DUP attempting to protect itself from a backlash against it's failings to get concessions.

timthumbni

Happyman42 wrote: »

It was a big deal for SF, if they got a deal and nobody else noticed or thought it important enough to object to at the time, whose fault is that?
I seriously doubt that it could have been done secretly, considering these letters where being sent out to a good number of people.

Robinson, knowing that an inquiry won't be given is once again playing the martyr here, he will make plenty of noise, do some damage (that he can live with) and then back down. Classic Unionist version of politics...play to the rabble.

Putting aside your obvious dislike of unionists (I'm one myself) I'm not so sure with this one. I am quite sure that if Robinson does resign he won't be back.

I would have thought that it was quite important for people to have noticed. Otherwise it's a Blair style behind the back deal. This certainly has the potential to bring down the local government.

timthumbni

karma_ wrote: »

Interestingly I just did a quick google search and this issue (OTR's) popped up in many articles and sites going back to around 2005 and looks like there were talks of an imminent deal that would address the issue. It also looks like State killers would also benefit from the deal so it could have implications for SF and I'm guessing now there was nothing on the tables for Loyalists which would explain the DUP attempting to protect itself from a backlash against it's failings to get concessions.

As I said I also remember about it at the time. However it's a big step from people talking about it to sending out "don't worry about it letters"

I personally voted against the gfa due to the issue of terrorists (on both sides) getting released early. I certainly didn't vote on a republican get out of jail free card. Blair's slime covered hands are all over this.

Happyman42

timthumbni wrote: »

As I said I also remember about it at the time. However it's a big step from people talking about it to sending out "don't worry about it letters"

I personally voted against the gfa due to the issue of terrorists (on both sides) getting released early. I certainly didn't vote on a republican get out of jail free card. Blair's slime covered hands are all over this.

Was it not the responsibility of your representatives to know about this though?
Why is it anybody elses problem if they ignored what was a big part of the deal...are you asking us to believe that they just forgot about it?

And I don't 'dislike' Unionists, I just know how they like to play the political game.

timthumbni

Happyman42 wrote: »

Was it not the responsibility of your representatives to know about this though?
Why is it anybody elses problem if they ignored what was a big part of the deal...are you asking us to believe that they just forgot about it?

And I don't 'dislike' Unionists, I just know how they like to play the political game.

Like republicans don't play a political game. Lol. Whatever!!!!!!

It would be a "big" part of the deal if no one else was informed of the Behind the scenes dealing. You do realise that if this stands that it basically means an amnesty to all. This includes "state killers" etc.

As I said the on the runs were talked about but you would have assumed that any solution to this issue would have had to go through in public. Either these bulls&it get out of free cards are revoked or else all other bets are off regarding justice.

Happyman42

timthumbni wrote: »

Like republicans don't play a political game. Lol. Whatever!!!!!!

Did I say they they didn't? I said I 'know how Unionists like to play it'

It would be a "big" part of the deal if no one else was informed of the Behind the scenes dealing. You do realise that if this stands that it basically means an amnesty to all. This includes "state killers" etc.

Yes, and I have always been off the opinion that an amnesty is what is required to consolidate and build the peace.

As I said the on the runs were talked about but you would have assumed that any solution to this issue would have had to go through in public. Either these bulls&it get out of free cards are revoked or else all other bets are off regarding justice.

What other bets?

timthumbni

Happyman42 wrote: »

Did I say they they didn't? I said I 'know how Unionists like to play it'


Yes, and I have always been off the opinion that an amnesty is what is required to consolidate and build the peace.



What other bets?

I think the whole so called peace process is at stake here. That's the bets. I don't support the idea of a universal amnesty though it looks like slime Blair and his cohorts seem to think that Provos deserve one.

The fact that Blair sent uncle Gerry a private letter doesn't surprise me at all. If it was proved that Blair introduced the bubonic plaque to Europe I would not be surprised either. Lol.

timthumbni

Btw I'm getting pop ups on this site all the time now. On an ipad. Is this just me or do I have the ipad lurgy?????? Should I shoot the blasted thing???

Happyman42

timthumbni wrote: »

I think the whole so called peace process is at stake here.

I don't, more 'fleg' type posturing and playing to the crowd.
Has the potential to be damaging, but I'd be amazed to see Robinson personally sarcrificing himself.

timthumbni wrote: »

Btw I'm getting pop ups on this site all the time now. On an ipad. Is this just me or do I have the ipad lurgy?????? Should I shoot the blasted thing???

Try installing an Adblocker maybe?

Nodin

timthumbni wrote: »

I think the whole so called peace process is at stake here. That's the bets. I don't support the idea of a universal amnesty though it looks like slime Blair and his cohorts seem to think that Provos deserve one.

The fact that Blair sent uncle Gerry a private letter doesn't surprise me at all. If it was proved that Blair introduced the bubonic plaque to Europe I would not be surprised either. Lol.

....there was an amnesty, and theres no going back on it now. Secondly, Peter and co knew damned rightly there was one. This is theatrics in case the UUP or some bunch make capital of it.

Madd Finn

I won't hold my breath waiting for some strident chants of "No Justice, No Peace" from Republicans on this one.

That's only for Bloody Sunday, and the Ballymurphy Massacre and solidarity with Broadwater Farm residents etc etc.

Flippant comments aside, I think if there were deals to let bygones be bygones as regards Republican actions then there should me some measure of reciprocation.

0ph0rce0

I know one of the mentioned in the articles in the papers and they were given no amnesty or no letter, some the the info they state about being wanted for murder is all bullsht

Tramps Like Us

Wht happened here is that a bunch of people sent letter to the NIO office asking if they are wanted or would be prosecuted if they returned to the north or to Britain. Some like John Downey were told they would not be. Others such as SFs Rita O'Hare (Sinn Féin general secretary) were told they would be, so she doesnt go north. How is this a "get out of jail free card"?

DUP and UUP etc are lying about not knowing about this - they were told about it at a policing board meeting in 2010. It was mentioned in the eames/bradley report in 2009. John Downeys letter was specifically mentioned by Gerry Kelly in May of last year. Most damningly of all is the below extract from Johnathan Powells bio about the OTR "deal" and the fact that this stuff about the OTRs was discussed in Stormont in 2012 (vid at BBC link below)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/northern_ireland/newsid_9765000/9765786.stm


As far back as the Weston Park agreement in 2001 there was an agreement between the British and Irish govts about dealing with OTRs - all this spin about "secret deals" and "get out of jail free cards" is nothing but complete and utter lies.

Sadly all this is is a damning indictment of Unionist politics and politicians, it is another orchestrated "controversy" like the craic over the flag designed to heighten tensions as an electoral ploy.

Happyman42

So now he's not resigning. One word; Elections

timthumbni

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Wht happened here is that a bunch of people sent letter to the NIO office asking if they are wanted or would be prosecuted if they returned to the north or to Britain. Some like John Downey were told they would not be. Others such as SFs Rita O'Hare (Sinn Féin general secretary) were told they would be, so she doesnt go north. How is this a "get out of jail free card"?

DUP and UUP etc are lying about not knowing about this - they were told about it at a policing board meeting in 2010. It was mentioned in the eames/bradley report in 2009. John Downeys letter was specifically mentioned by Gerry Kelly in May of last year. Most damningly of all is the below extract from Johnathan Powells bio about the OTR "deal" and the fact that this stuff about the OTRs was discussed in Stormont in 2012 (vid at BBC link below)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/northern_ireland/newsid_9765000/9765786.stm


As far back as the Weston Park agreement in 2001 there was an agreement between the British and Irish govts about dealing with OTRs - all this spin about "secret deals" and "get out of jail free cards" is nothing but complete and utter lies.

Sadly all this is is a damning indictment of Unionist politics and politicians, it is another orchestrated "controversy" like the craic over the flag designed to heighten tensions as an electoral ploy.

Hardly just unionist politics saying as all the other parties aside from the shinners were no happy about it. You do realise that the shinners are not the majority in Northern Ireland don't you????

It's amazing how bad the British are to republicans isn't it?? Lol. Saw tom mcfeeley on last night running to the British courts to be made bankrupt. No shame for that boy. Lol

Tramps Like Us

timthumbni wrote: »

Hardly just unionist politics saying as all the other parties aside from the shinners were no happy about it. You do realise that the shinners are not the majority in Northern Ireland don't you????

It's amazing how bad the British are to republicans isn't it?? Lol. Saw tom mcfeeley on last night running to the British courts to be made bankrupt. No shame for that boy. Lol

Maybe you could try that again, and post something relevant and perhaps address my post. I'm not sure what McFeely has to do with any of this - he's a scumbag and the harshest commentary about him to be found is in SFs paper.

timthumbni

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Wht happened here is that a bunch of people sent letter to the NIO office asking if they are wanted or would be prosecuted if they returned to the north or to Britain. Some like John Downey were told they would not be. Others such as SFs Rita O'Hare (Sinn Féin general secretary) were told they would be, so she doesnt go north. How is this a "get out of jail free card"?

DUP and UUP etc are lying about not knowing about this - they were told about it at a policing board meeting in 2010. It was mentioned in the eames/bradley report in 2009. John Downeys letter was specifically mentioned by Gerry Kelly in May of last year. Most damningly of all is the below extract from Johnathan Powells bio about the OTR "deal" and the fact that this stuff about the OTRs was discussed in Stormont in 2012 (vid at BBC link below)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/northern_ireland/newsid_9765000/9765786.stm


As far back as the Weston Park agreement in 2001 there was an agreement between the British and Irish govts about dealing with OTRs - all this spin about "secret deals" and "get out of jail free cards" is nothing but complete and utter lies.

Sadly all this is is a damning indictment of Unionist politics and politicians, it is another orchestrated "controversy" like the craic over the flag designed to heighten tensions as an electoral ploy.

I repeat again. I was aware of the otr issue years ago but I did not realise this had been dealt with by letters to Provos. I'm sure you would have the same view if letters were issued privately to any British soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday.


........... Not

Nodin

"I very much welcome the judge-led inquiry that he announced and I am happy with the terms of reference that have since been set out."

The DUP leader added: "I am satisfied with the response that I have got from government.

"I think the prime minister and the secretary of state have been prompt, they have dealt with the issues seriously and in a manner that is satisfactory to me.

"So yes, I do not intend to resign on the basis that if you get what you want why on earth would you want to resign?"
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-26373678

With the ability to make turns like that, Peter could have taken on Joey Dunlop in his heyday.

padma

I believe the so called otr's deserve a chance to be able to return to the North to visit family and friends just like anybody else who had to leave the North. A lot of them if not most are otr's for alleged activity going back to the 70's. Then you have the unofficial otrs who left as they became targets for both loyalist and Republicans due to their activity etc.

As NI is building a peace it makes sense that otrs could get a chance to go home after being on the run for so long. The past is the past and this issue should of course be dealt with sensibly instead of all the threats of fallibg out of govt etc....

Tramps Like Us

timthumbni wrote: »

I repeat again. I was aware of the otr issue years ago but I did not realise this had been dealt with by letters to Provos. I'm sure you would have the same view if letters were issued privately to any British soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday.


........... Not

Soldier F never had to go on the run to avoid prosecution did he... nor did any other British soldiers or RUC

The letters were not an amnesty they were asking whether or not they were wanted. John Downey WAS wanted, there was a warrant out for him, so presumably he should not have got a letter the same as Rita O'Hare did not get a letter (or the various others charged with historical crimes)

Besides I think there should a truth commission and amnesty for those who honestly partake in it

timthumbni

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Soldier F never had to go on the run to avoid prosecution did he... nor did any other British soldiers or RUC

The letters were not an amnesty they were asking whether or not they were wanted. John Downey WAS wanted, there was a warrant out for him, so presumably he should not have got a letter the same as Rita O'Hare did not get a letter (or the various others charged with historical crimes)

Besides I think there should a truth commission and amnesty for those who honestly partake in it

And the part where you said "honestly" is interesting. Would the 10 plus republicans who singled out the kingsmills Protestants ever come forward. ( not that the Provos were ever sectarian oh no....) they just happened to let the only catholic on the bus go on his way. Just a coincidence of course. Sure Wolfe tone was a prod sure........

timthumbni

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Soldier F never had to go on the run to avoid prosecution did he... nor did any other British soldiers or RUC

The letters were not an amnesty they were asking whether or not they were wanted. John Downey WAS wanted, there was a warrant out for him, so presumably he should not have got a letter the same as Rita O'Hare did not get a letter (or the various others charged with historical crimes)

Besides I think there should a truth commission and amnesty for those who honestly partake in it

I'm actually interested on who these letters were actually from anyway. Unless it's from the queen then surely they can be revoked. In fact even if it was then they can surely be overturned.

Let's hope they are so as some of these low life's can face justice... Just like the rest of us. Since when did being a republican give you a get out of jail free card. (British justice ehh???)

Tramps Like Us

timthumbni wrote: »

And the part where you said "honestly" is interesting. Would the 10 plus republicans who singled out the kingsmills Protestants ever come forward. ( not that the Provos were ever sectarian oh no....) they just happened to let the only catholic on the bus go on his way. Just a coincidence of course. Sure Wolfe tone was a prod sure........

The survivor of that massacre thinks that British agents were involved

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26219935

By honestly I mean if people came forward and lied to the commission then they should not enjoy the incentive offered (amnesty) to take part

We dont know who would come forward do we? We do know that they and others have not come forward now, and are not likely to if things remain as they are. But certainly some people would come forward to talk to such a commission, who otherwise would take their secrets to the grave. As things are there already is a partial amnesty, people will only serve at max 2 years for historical offenses.

In reference to this specific thread, I am willing to engage in mutually beneficial and enlightening discussion about this and other subjects, but I'm not willing to engage in point scoring exercises.

karma_

timthumbni wrote: »

I'm actually interested on who these letters were actually from anyway. Unless it's from the queen then surely they can be revoked. In fact even if it was then they can surely be overturned.

Let's hope they are so as some of these low life's can face justice... Just like the rest of us. Since when did being a republican give you a get out of jail free card. (British justice ehh???)

They won't be rescinded. In fact today it was reported that some not sure if all infact do have royal prerogative of mercy. Also this was part of the deal that brought us peace and it's not worth throwing peace away for that is it now?

I detest these games Unionist politicians play, yet they keep losing them and no one has failed your community more than your very own leaders yet not one of you holds them accountable.

timthumbni

karma_ wrote: »

They won't be rescinded. In fact today it was reported that some not sure if all infact do have royal prerogative of mercy. Also this was part of the deal that brought us peace and it's not worth throwing peace away for that is it now?

I detest these games Unionist politicians play, yet they keep losing them and no one has failed your community more than your very own leaders yet not one of you holds them accountable.

If you look at the reaction from all of the parties (bar Sinn Fein of course) then you will find that all seem disgusted by this slimy Blair side deal.

As I said earlier if this stands then you can forget about trying to get justice for Bloody Sunday etc, etc,

Unionists game plan is to stay in the union so they have been pretty successful so far. For my part (and I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman) I have voted for every single party in "da occupied 6" aside from Sinn Fein.

.jacksparrow.

Maybe its about time the British government gave access to the Dublin Monahan bombing files.

valor rorghulis

I don't see the big deal - think of the people let out under the GFA

Nodin

timthumbni wrote: »

I'm actually interested on who these letters were actually from anyway. Unless it's from the queen then surely they can be revoked. In fact even if it was then they can surely be overturned.

Let's hope they are so as some of these low life's can face justice... Just like the rest of us. Since when did being a republican give you a get out of jail free card. (British justice ehh???)

Under the GFA, even if they were charged and convicted, the most they'd do is two years, minus time off for the usual.

Nodin

timthumbni wrote: »

If you look at the reaction from all of the parties (bar Sinn Fein of course) then you will find that all seem disgusted by this slimy Blair side deal.

..........

The one that all the major players knew about, yet remained mysteriously silent upon till now.

Happyman42

Nodin wrote: »

The one that all the major players knew about, yet remained mysteriously silent upon till now.

As a cynical play to the rabble it has rarely been equalled in probably one of the most cynical political environments on the planet.
Unionists politicians will stoop to any low to gain electoral advantage over each other.

junder

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

The survivor of that massacre thinks that British agents were involved

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26219935

By honestly I mean if people came forward and lied to the commission then they should not enjoy the incentive offered (amnesty) to take part

We dont know who would come forward do we? We do know that they and others have not come forward now, and are not likely to if things remain as they are. But certainly some people would come forward to talk to such a commission, who otherwise would take their secrets to the grave. As things are there already is a partial amnesty, people will only serve at max 2 years for historical offenses.

In reference to this specific thread, I am willing to engage in mutually beneficial and enlightening discussion about this and other subjects, but I'm not willing to engage in point scoring exercises.

Wow, so now kingsmill is the fault of the brits, sure par for the course for republicans isn't it, blame everybody else

J Cheever Loophole

The peace process up here was by it's very nature a very complex process that necessitated an awful lot of compromise by the participants to reach an overall agreement. That's why it took so long and why even today it can come under pressure.

My own feeling would be that to push the areement through would have necessitated the peace brokers having to accept a lot that they had major issues with and my guess would be that there would have been an element of fudge to some of the decisions made, or indeed a blind eye turned, so that the process could move foward. I believe that is what has happened here.

This issue might never have seen the light of day only for the court case to hit the headlines so spectacularly during the week. In those circumstances, Robinson had no choice but to react and has obviously thought that the best line of defence is attack. Elections will loom large in his thinking with Jim Allister, the UUP and Alliance all waiting for a slip up. As others have said here, this could yet prove embarrasing for the DUP if it comes to light that they did indee have prior knowledge, as Denis Bradley so adamantly claimed.

Personally I am very glad of the peace process and indeed the compromises / fudges / blind eyes turned, that help bring it to a conclusion. As a result of it we now have nearly 2,000 people walking around our streets that might not have been here otherwise. Yet for all the fact that I am glad, I know there are a lot more people who feel genuine anger at what has happened and I feel for people who have lost loved ones and feel they are not getting justice. I would hope that if I had been in their position I would have been able to accept the pain for the greater good.

guinnessdrinker

junder wrote: »

Wow, so now kingsmill is the fault of the brits, sure par for the course for republicans isn't it, blame everybody else

I don't think anyone is blaming the Brits for the Kingsmill massacre. The blame rests with those that pulled the triggers and those that ordered the murders. The suggestion by Mr Black that state agents were involved in the massacre does raise serious questions though.

TheHappyChappy

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

I don't think anyone is blaming the Brits for the Kingsmill massacre. The blame rests with those that pulled the triggers and those that ordered the murders. The suggestion by Mr Black that state agents were involved in the massacre does raise serious questions though.

Mr Black's suggestion genuinely shocked me, what next?

TheHappyChappy

junder wrote: »

Wow, so now kingsmill is the fault of the brits, sure par for the course for republicans isn't it, blame everybody else

Mr Black is a republican?

Did you read anything or just jump in half-cocked?

TheHappyChappy

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Maybe its about time the British government gave access to the Dublin Monahan bombing files.

That's one secret unfortunately that I suspect will never be uncovered

Sand

timthumbni wrote: »

It does seem to put the rest of the justice system in Northern Ireland into shame does it not? How can you prosecute say for example a British army murderer whilst you give a republican murderer a pass??? It doesn't make sense.

I think it only makes sense when you acknowledge that the British government hold their soldiers to a higher standard than the Provos (or Loyalists for that matter) ever held their members to. The Provos might be unconcerned that their members murdered someone, but the British government, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it, retains the right to be bothered if evidence arises one of their soldiers murdered someone. I'm sure that doesn't do much for the anger of the victims and their families who feel that they have been downgraded because they weren't killed by the right side.

But I think while any peace would involve distasteful compromises, far too many concessions were made to the Provos on issues which were not by any means make or break. Would Adams and McGuiness really have climbed back into the trenches for another 30 years for the sake of a few dozen OTRs? Highly unlikely, but while Blair was probably flexible enough to secure a deal I wonder if he was interested in ensuring it had strong and principled foundations, or if he just took the same short term view of the project as politicians do for everything else. Building a lasting peace on the backs of the DUP and SF, the two most extreme parties, each with an electoral advantage in conflict and division, seems to be very optimistic.

The current NI administration seems to totter along, held aloft by the British and Irish governments, whilst there's turmoil with protests about "flegs" and issues of the past at ground level. Meanwhile "dissidents" are increasingly trying to wind the clock back. It's as if the whole thing was on artificial life support with little actual reconciliation.

padma

Sand wrote: »

I think it only makes sense when you acknowledge that the British government hold their soldiers to a higher standard than the Provos (or Loyalists for that matter) ever held their members to. The Provos might be unconcerned that their members murdered someone, but the British government, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it, retains the right to be bothered if evidence arises one of their soldiers murdered someone. I'm sure that doesn't do much for the anger of the victims and their families who feel that they have been downgraded because they weren't killed by the right side.

But I think while any peace would involve distasteful compromises, far too many concessions were made to the Provos on issues which were not by any means make or break. Would Adams and McGuiness really have climbed back into the trenches for another 30 years for the sake of a few dozen OTRs? Highly unlikely, but while Blair was probably flexible enough to secure a deal I wonder if he was interested in ensuring it had strong and principled foundations, or if he just took the same short term view of the project as politicians do for everything else. Building a lasting peace on the backs of the DUP and SF, the two most extreme parties, each with an electoral advantage in conflict and division, seems to be very optimistic.

The current NI administration seems to totter along, held aloft by the British and Irish governments, whilst there's turmoil with protests about "flegs" and issues of the past at ground level. Meanwhile "dissidents" are increasingly trying to wind the clock back. It's as if the whole thing was on artificial life support with little actual reconciliation.

seriously? we are talking about thousands of innocents in the past 12 years in iraq and afghanistan. Murder, Killing someone in these two countries had the british govt bothered. don't be ridiculous the british army weren't in ireland policing the conflict no matter what you may think, they were there to enforce british supremacy in the 6 counties.

Sand

padma wrote: »

seriously? we are talking about thousands of innocents in the past 12 years in iraq and afghanistan. Murder, Killing someone in these two countries had the british govt bothered. don't be ridiculous the british army weren't in ireland policing the conflict no matter what you may think, they were there to enforce british supremacy in the 6 counties.

Ya, seriously. I point you towards the investigations of and convictions for British military murders/atrocities in all the theatres you mention. It demonstrates that the British government at some level does punish wrongdoing by its troops and did not give its soldiers a "Get out of Jail Free" card as part of the GFA. These are not disputable facts.

TheHappyChappy

I would suggest the british have given out your 'get out of jail free cards' to thousands of their blood thirsty ilk around the globe since recorded history sir, on that note i say good night.

padma

so, you are saying that every man, woman and child who died at the hands of a british soldier has had justice from the british government. Go to sleep you're embarrassing yourself.

Sand

TheHappyChappy wrote: »

I would suggest the british have given out your 'get out of jail free cards' to thousands of their blood thirsty ilk around the globe since recorded history sir, on that note i say good night.

padma wrote: »

so, you are saying that every man, woman and child who died at the hands of a british soldier has had justice from the british government. Go to sleep you're embarrassing yourself.

@Padma

I think you're wilfully misinterpreting HappyChappys view - he never said anything like that. And its pretty mean to say what you said about him going to bed.

Dr.Tank Adams

Sounds like the Unionists already knew about this and are simply playing the "indignant, rabble-rousing card" that comes so naturally to them, in order to save face with Loyalists. TBH I think they'd seriously struggle to have these letters rescinded anyway, once you issue something like that it's hard to take back.

padma

Sand wrote: »

@Padma

I think you're wilfully misinterpreting HappyChappys view - he never said anything like that. And its pretty mean to say what you said about him going to bed.

Your trolling now or else acting a child sand. seriously it belittles having a sensible non emotive talk about the debate at hand.

Sand

Is it "a sensible non emotive talk about the debate at hand" when peoples contributions amount to emotive strawmen and telling posters "Go to sleep you're embarrassing yourself"? Do you think that raised or lowered the tone of the debate towards this sensible non emotive talk about the debate at hand you seek?