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The future of golf in Ireland?

  • 26-02-2014 10:35AM
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 83 ✭✭


    In 5-10years time how do you see golf and golf clubs in Ireland?
    Will golf grow as a sport and pastime or will be see the number of golf courses reduced?

    How much will golf cost in 10years time compared to now?
    Green fees V memberships?

    More and more junior golfers playing now, will they continue?

    Will be interesting to look back at the feedback and see how wrong or right we were...!!!


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    Change, particularly in the types of membership offerings available, is very slow in membership clubs and, perhaps, this is understandable.

    In my experience, many existing members feel it unfair to offer more financially attractive "packages" to entice new members into clubs. This causes a conflict between existing members, who have managed to afford the existing fee levels, and the needs of potential new members with much more constraints on their time and budgets, for more affordable fees.

    Quite how this problem will be resolved over time remains to be seen. Some change has come about in local authority and resort type courses, where "pay as you go" membership have been available for some time. We are now seeing this approach being adopted in some clubs, presumably those experiencing the most severe financial pressure.

    That being said, the economic situation over the last few years has changed and clubs will have to learn to adapt to the new economic realities, IMO, or go out of business.

    The real problem is the voluntary nature of committees, their reluctance to change and the lack of a structured approach being provided from "on high" - result = falling numbers of registered golfers.

    Hopefully, this issue will begin to be addressed and resolved by the new "Confederation of Golf in Ireland" along the lines of the announcement on the GUI website:
    Specifically, there is important work to be done to stop the decline in membership of golf clubs and to start the re-building process after the economic hardships of recent years. The key to this will be to bring a new focus to the game and the business of golf clubs on the island of Ireland.

    For link see: http://www.gui.ie/home/news/confederation-of-golf-in-ireland-formed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,742 ✭✭✭✭Wichita Lineman


    :eek:"The real problem is the voluntary nature of committees":eek:

    The real problem is our economic climate which has forced some golfers to abandon the game altogether and many others to expect top quality facilities for next to nothing.

    Many clubs would have already gone to the wall if it wasnt for their hard working 'voluntary committees'! While we all want people to come and play our course paying members are the life source of any club.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,133 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    It is interesting,

    The older member owned clubs have had a structure in place that has worked for a long time - they have no need to change if it continues to work for them. But the younger people playing the game are accustomed to variety and access to many courses at world class level for extraordinary low prices. This variety and experience has spoilt them (In a good way perhaps) - they are use to variety in all other aspect of their lives - holidays - restaurants - lifestyle. The expectations of this new group of golfers is very high. Maybe unrealistically high.

    This idea of being connected to one thing when you have choice - has somewhat been left behind. People don't seem to view a golf club in the same way as a GAA team or a Rugby team - I don't know the reason for this - perhaps it is because golf clubs were private establishments within the community as opposed to being in the community.

    I think you will see people join a place for a year or 2 and move on much more. You would imagine that people's natural curiosity will die down as they get older. But being older , seems to be much older now too.

    So the only model that I can see working well - is pay as you go, or multi club access.

    I also feel , people who are into club golf and their (0.1 s) - don't understand that their is a another market out there that is doing very well - offering variety, fun and less formality - That can do for the majority of golfers I know. Society Golf - some tend to look down on this, that it is not real golf. But - of the 15 friends I know that play golf - only 1 of them would be into club golf and their handicap (me) - Even at that , I see the attractions of staying outside of club golf for most - it is cheaper , offers variety and you can control when you play and is far more social.

    I think on the forum here - we tend to look at this subject as serious golfers. Are people really into their golf as much as us ? To join a golf club you need to be big into your golf imo. Unless it is ridiculously cheap , some places are ridiculously cheap.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,742 ✭✭✭✭Wichita Lineman


    I'd rather play golf than have a couple of pints two or three times a week which would be much more expensive than the golf. Some people have different priorities and are entitled to it. I just think it's quite sad that club loyalty is on the decline and I really feel that many casual golfers honestly dont realise that without the likes of us there wouldnt be half the places for them to enjoy a round of golf.

    Members and committees are taken for granted. I'm on a committee and there is work involved in keeping a golf club open.

    I have nothing against societies, we love having them come to Moate, I'm in one myself and play an odd time as a visitor with a couple of other ones but they dont beat being a member of Moate and they dont come anywhere near the same value for money in the long run.

    I can understand the society route if someone isnt interested in having a proper handicap and can only play a few times a year, if it makes sense good luck to them. It's the guy who wants to play somewhere different every week or even more but "cheap as chips" no matter what the cost to the members that I cant figure out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,133 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark



    I can understand the society route if someone isnt interested in having a proper handicap and can only play a few times a year, if it makes sense good luck to them. It's the guy who wants to play somewhere different every week or even more but "cheap as chips" no matter what the cost to the members that I cant figure out.

    Well they are happy with their lot - they don't want a "proper" handicap at all.

    And on the 2nd point - it is like saying you don't understand somebody flying off to all the crazy places in Europe for a cheap holiday with Ryanair. Same with LIDL and ALDI.

    People are naturally curious, like cheap stuff and are not too concerned about the impact it is having on others - be it companies - staff of cheap manufactured goods and products. If you can't figure this out - or the golf industry - this is where the biggest market will be. The ones who are figuring this out will do well.

    I'm not a fan - but it is the reality of the market. Also people who are not a fan - will also fly Ryanair eventually. It is a race to the bottom (sadly).

    The reason I say sadly - is I'd rather see the older clubs who did nothing wrong survive, but - when it comes to markets - there is no fair.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,742 ✭✭✭✭Wichita Lineman


    Not all airlines are Ryanairs, not all golf clubs should be ............................... (insert as appropriate) :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,133 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Not all airlines are Ryanairs, not all golf clubs should be ............................... (insert as appropriate) :D

    Yes - but the airlines that were not - lost money hand over fist, till they got a CEO in that did a tailored Ryanair business model.

    Not the same - but accepted that the market had changed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,021 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    I started playing Golf when I was 11 back in 1995.

    From my whole Secondary school only 4 lads played Golf. We had School team that consisted of 4 players and it picked itself.

    Now that same school has over 50 players playing the local club. My brother who is still in secondary school(different to one I went too) plays the game regular with friends. He says about half his class plays golf.

    I remember when Golf was seen as a boring sport for fat, or rich people. I came from anything but rich family, just lucky at time there was 9 hole course only mile from me.

    Now golf is actually a "in" sport to be in. Which is great. Its a great game. I only started playing more Golf again past few years I gave it up through leaving cert time right through college and for few working years but slowly working back to playing day or two a week with mate.

    Its the clubs and technology that have really changed in that time.

    Green fees have went down and Golf is accessible to most classes now with competitive green fee and membership rates.

    Things are going in the right direction anyway imo.

    EVENFLOW



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    I'd rather play golf than have a couple of pints two or three times a week which would be much more expensive than the golf. Some people have different priorities and are entitled to it. I just think it's quite sad that club loyalty is on the decline and I really feel that many casual golfers honestly dont realise that without the likes of us there wouldnt be half the places for them to enjoy a round of golf.

    Members and committees are taken for granted. I'm on a committee and there is work involved in keeping a golf club open.

    I have nothing against societies, we love having them come to Moate, I'm in one myself and play an odd time as a visitor with a couple of other ones but they dont beat being a member of Moate and they dont come anywhere near the same value for money in the long run.

    I can understand the society route if someone isnt interested in having a proper handicap and can only play a few times a year, if it makes sense good luck to them. It's the guy who wants to play somewhere different every week or even more but "cheap as chips" no matter what the cost to the members that I cant figure out.

    Totally agree.
    There is no loyalty to clubs anymore which is sad IMO. Of course the economic conditions are to blame for a lot of it, but I hate to see golfers working out how much per round their golf costs and deciding to give up a membership because they can play x times in Opens during the summer and it works out cheaper. If that's all you can afford, fair enough, we're all in a different boat than we were 6 years ago, but surely being part of a club has to be worth something, however intangible.

    I also think a lot of clubs though are/were so rooted in the past that they lost a lot of potential members. e.g. you'd see the same names on interclub teams year after year and newer guys rarely getting a look in - that only increased the negative perception that may have been out there.

    At the same time, guys became used to playing top courses in the boom times and want/expect the same everywhere, it doesn't work like that IMO. I think its great that member owned courses can be unique and a bit quirky, golf would be pretty boring if every course was a K Club stadium style layout.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,021 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Russman wrote: »
    At the same time, guys became used to playing top courses in the boom times and want/expect the same everywhere, it doesn't work like that IMO. I think its great that member owned courses can be unique and a bit quirky, golf would be pretty boring if every course was a K Club stadium style layout.

    Thats what is so great about Golf. Its variety. Be it in Technology or Golf courses.

    You can play different types of Links courses and even Parkland courses.

    Some many different aspects to the game. Driving, iron play, short game etc..

    EVENFLOW



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    The current economic situation is not to blame for the mess.

    The problem is that many clubs were setup or improved based on the gravy train lasting forever which it clearly wouldn't. Too much money was borrowed for flashy courses and flashy club houses and the tax payer has been left to pick up the pieces. The courses that had no financial viability long term are now under-cutting the clubs that were well managed.

    Compare the ridiculous prices several years back with the prices of golf in Northern Ireland and you can clearly see that good financial management went out the door. People were paying €30K plus to join some clubs.........I know of no equivalent in Northern Ireland for the same quality of course.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 83 ✭✭14handicap


    You are missing the question:
    Where do you see golf in Ireland in 10years from now?
    Number of courses?
    Costs to play and join?
    Will all the tourist courses survive?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 Golfer59


    I think it will change, but greens fees will stay the same, but you will see better membership offers, such as the flexible membership that is in place in Kilcock Golf Club, I can see this been the future in Ireland. Has taken off big time in the UK


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    14handicap wrote: »
    You are missing the question:
    Where do you see golf in Ireland in 10years from now?
    Number of courses?
    Costs to play and join?
    Will all the tourist courses survive?

    1) vastly different, social golf will become much more prevalent, inter-club (already struggling) will be dying a death, and we'll all be reminiscing about "when people cared".

    2) Probably 30 fewer than we have today.

    3) Similar to now.

    4) No.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    :eek:"The real problem is the voluntary nature of committees":eek:

    The real problem is our economic climate which has forced some golfers to abandon the game altogether and many others to expect top quality facilities for next to nothing.

    Many clubs would have already gone to the wall if it wasnt for their hard working 'voluntary committees'! While we all want people to come and play our course paying members are the life source of any club.

    Yes, indeed, I agree that voluntary committees do fantastic work and have taken clubs to the point where we are now (and I was on committee for about 6 years, myself).

    But, the problem of the economic climate won't go away. And waiting for the government or time to solve it, will be a little late for many clubs, who are already just hanging on by their fingertips.

    We all know the problems - so, what are the solutions that will bring more people to the game and boost revenues for the vast majority of clubs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I dont see how the costs to play will change that much for "regular" clubs.

    Unless something magic happens its still going to cost pretty much the same to keep a course in a certain condition. If we take this as immovable then what else do you have?
    People who want to pay less well get less quality or more restrictions on playing rights/times.

    I really dont see where else it can go. People got used to paying pittance for top quality courses...that wont last...it cant.

    Sure you can play a type of golf where its a different course every week and you get great deals, but to me thats similar to surviving on deals for your gym membership. Each week you go to the cheap gym, some people this suits, others not at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I dont see how the costs to play will change that much for "regular" clubs.

    Unless something magic happens its still going to cost pretty much the same to keep a course in a certain condition. If we take this as immovable then what else do you have?
    People who want to pay less well get less quality or more restrictions on playing rights/times.

    I really dont see where else it can go. People got used to paying pittance for top quality courses...that wont last...it cant.

    Sure you can play a type of golf where its a different course every week and you get great deals, but to me thats similar to surviving on deals for your gym membership. Each week you go to the cheap gym, some people this suits, others not at all.

    So, are you saying that nothing can be done to attract more people into the game? Surely there must be alternatives for clubs to think about and try out?

    If not, then what is the point of the GUI, ILGU and PGA setting up the "Confederation of Golf in Ireland" to help clubs to attract new and retain existing golf members?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭benny79


    I know for 1, my club must be the unfriendest I have ever been too this been my third year as a member but played it all of the years! if they changed their attitude they would attrach a lot more members, hense why half my mates wont join


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    benny79 wrote: »
    I know for 1, my club must be the unfriendest I have ever been too this been my third year as a member but played it all of the years! if they changed their attitude they would attrach a lot more members, hense why half my mates wont join

    What's the club?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭benny79


    I'd rather not say as I live in a small town, The only reason I joined is cause its more or less on my door step and is a lovely course. The nearest 1 to it is 20/30 mins away. And as 1 of my mates keeps telling me in the summer you can play a few holes most nites as its so near And dont mind the committee etc it feels like a big click most the members are 40+ and are members years and are business people in the town it was seen as a bit of a posh club back in the day I just feel went I play other clubs there much more friendlier and accommodating.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭benny79


    Plus my mate who convinced me to join won 2 prizes in weekly comp's over a yealy period and was giving vouchers to a golf shop and when he went to the shop buysomething the chap told him that he cant honour them the girl who run's are comp's owes him a fortune! so he went back and saidtoher,she said he can pick something in the pro shop which hardly has anything! as you can imagine he was highly embarressed by the situation, but he still sticks by the club. I think its a disgrace as you are paying €800 a year + €10 a week for comp's and obviously if you win something you are chuffed + he had to ask numerous times for his prize...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    golfwallah wrote: »
    So, are you saying that nothing can be done to attract more people into the game? Surely there must be alternatives for clubs to think about and try out?

    If not, then what is the point of the GUI, ILGU and PGA setting up the "Confederation of Golf in Ireland" to help clubs to attract new and retain existing golf members?

    No, I'm saying that each club is going to keep trying to attract the same types of people that it always has. Its illogical to think that a top end club will be resorting to the same tactics as a bottom end club. They are aiming for different people and have a different product on offer.

    What needs to change imo is the expectations of casual golfers. The race to the bottom is due to clubs desperately trying to offer top end golf for a rock bottom price, its unsustainable. Until more clubs go to the wall this will continue to be a problem.

    Too many clubs with not enough golfers to keep them all afloat.

    The market will find its own balance, it does with everything...when left alone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Too many clubs with not enough golfers to keep them all afloat.

    To be honest, that's about it in a nutshell. All the plans, projections & strategies in the world can't change that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    GreeBo wrote: »
    No, I'm saying that each club is going to keep trying to attract the same types of people that it always has. Its illogical to think that a top end club will be resorting to the same tactics as a bottom end club. They are aiming for different people and have a different product on offer.

    What needs to change imo is the expectations of casual golfers. The race to the bottom is due to clubs desperately trying to offer top end golf for a rock bottom price, its unsustainable. Until more clubs go to the wall this will continue to be a problem.

    Too many clubs with not enough golfers to keep them all afloat.

    The market will find its own balance, it does with everything...when left alone.
    Russman wrote: »
    To be honest, that's about it in a nutshell. All the plans, projections & strategies in the world can't change that.

    An examination of the accounts for most member owned golf clubs will show that green fee revenue is tiny compared with that coming from membership. And as regards member income, only a small proportion of golf clubs are located within 6 km of a city centre, established for around 100 years in a built up suburban area, financially secure, with a full membership and an ability to attract new members willing to pay high joining / annual membership fees. These clubs, along with those backed by NAMA, banks or local authorities are in the minority. The vast bulk of clubs have other financial realities to deal with (e.g. is there enough in the kitty to pay the wages after June 2014). Let’s look at some of the facts:
    According to the GUI / ILGU / PGA booklet “Promoting Golf Club Membership”:
    From 1989 to the beginning of 2009 the total number of affiliated golf clubs increased from 263 to 430 while the total membership rose by 160% from just short of 100,000 to 260,000.
    Since 2009, the number of registered golfers has fallen to 135,000 (announced at GUI AGM recently) http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/confederation-set-up-to-help-aspiring-pros-get-started-30018125.html , whereas only a handful of clubs have closed.

    Do the math – I agree that operating costs in golf clubs are relatively fixed. Throughput in the form of members and casual rounds is falling. Result = rising costs per unit. Alternative of increased throughput (through lower priced package offerings) = falling costs per unit. The solution is so obvious that it’s ridiculous. The main issues are recognising that the existing models for membership aren’t providing the member numbers needed, deciding to take a different approach that will attract members and then doing the work required to make it happen

    Of course there are opportunities to increase golf membership numbers – maybe not in the same way as before the economic crisis – and making golf more affordable to all will mean changes – but not necessarily to course quality. Clubs are only limited by their imagination and by thinking too long about old forms of membership that no longer work in recessionary times.

    Willie Walsh, interviewed this morning on Sky TV about the positive turnaround in British airways, put it down to providing quality service at prices customers wanted. Just about sums it up for the golf industry as well, IMO.

    Alexander Graham Bell:
    When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 83 ✭✭14handicap


    I wonder which golf club is the most profitable from:
    1: green-fees
    2: membership subs.

    Would be very interesting to know.
    Somewhere like Portmarnock (The old one) with big green fees and membership but with little loans .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    golfwallah wrote: »
    An examination of the accounts for most member owned golf clubs will show that green fee revenue is tiny compared with that coming from membership. And as regards member income, only a small proportion of golf clubs are located within 6 km of a city centre, established for around 100 years in a built up suburban area, financially secure, with a full membership and an ability to attract new members willing to pay high joining / annual membership fees. These clubs, along with those backed by NAMA, banks or local authorities are in the minority. The vast bulk of clubs have other financial realities to deal with (e.g. is there enough in the kitty to pay the wages after June 2014). Let’s look at some of the facts:
    According to the GUI / ILGU / PGA booklet “Promoting Golf Club Membership”:

    Since 2009, the number of registered golfers has fallen to 135,000 (announced at GUI AGM recently) http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/confederation-set-up-to-help-aspiring-pros-get-started-30018125.html , whereas only a handful of clubs have closed.

    Do the math – I agree that operating costs in golf clubs are relatively fixed. Throughput in the form of members and casual rounds is falling. Result = rising costs per unit. Alternative of increased throughput (through lower priced package offerings) = falling costs per unit. The solution is so obvious that it’s ridiculous. The main issues are recognising that the existing models for membership aren’t providing the member numbers needed, deciding to take a different approach that will attract members and then doing the work required to make it happen

    Of course there are opportunities to increase golf membership numbers – maybe not in the same way as before the economic crisis – and making golf more affordable to all will mean changes – but not necessarily to course quality. Clubs are only limited by their imagination and by thinking too long about old forms of membership that no longer work in recessionary times.

    Willie Walsh, interviewed this morning on Sky TV about the positive turnaround in British airways, put it down to providing quality service at prices customers wanted. Just about sums it up for the golf industry as well, IMO.

    Alexander Graham Bell:

    There's definitely some validity to your argument, but two points I'd make straight off would be:
    1) The reason only a handful of clubs have closed is IMO because a number are being subsidised and should have been let fail.
    2) I agree that the bulk of people not playing or giving up the game is finance related, but there's also a number of people who may have the money but, nowadays, don't have the time, with the pressures of the changed society we have. Working longer if you have a job etc etc.

    I'm all in favour of clubs being innovative and at least trying something rather than letting themselves just wither away, but you're right, lots of members are very stuck in an older mentality where certain things just cannot be countenanced.

    I'm not 100% convinced that simply slashing prices will bring back the numbers, maybe it will. How a club could survive in year 1 if they did this isn't obvious to me though. Say, a decent established club, who are struggling a little bit but maybe not right at the tipping point, and are at that all too common €1k price point, decided to reduce their subs to €500 in the hope of attracting a really really significant number of members. They will struggle to pay the bills in year 1 IMO and to maintain course standards. There will always be a lag until if and when their numbers catch up. I'd love to see it tried though. But its a fine line between that and simply encouraging a quicker race to the bottom.

    The other thing is that a lot golfers nowadays mostly don't give a f--k about club memberships or loyalty, they chase deals year after year and have much less of an issue about changing club to save money. No club can budget with any degree of certainty any more.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    If there are 135,000 golfers in 430 clubs that is a average of 313 golfers per club, when there were 263 clubs and 100000 members it was 380 per club. At the same time Society golf and Casual green fees are much higher now than they were 10 years ago. The clubs that are in real trouble are the ones that built new club houses and are struggling to repay loans. I'd even say a lot of the NAMA courses are actually running at a profit if you took away the debt element.
    If the bar isn't loosing money then the cost of maintenace can be kept to a high standard without breaking the bank.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    On the course side, I believe we will see a lot less bunkers. Many golf clubs are considering or currently undergoing a process of removing/filling in bunkers due to the cost of maintaining them. Once many are removed they will be able to maintain the rest of the golf course to a higher standard with less man hours (and less cost).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Arsenium


    Russman wrote: »
    2) I agree that the bulk of people not playing or giving up the game is finance related, but there's also a number of people who may have the money but, nowadays, don't have the time, with the pressures of the changed society we have. Working longer if you have a job etc etc.

    I also feel that a lot of people took up golf during the good times, and these people really didnt have that huge amount of interest in golf. They bought top of the range irons, drivers, putters, bags, trollies...even buggies. Wouldnt be seen dead hitting anything except a prov ball and they flocked to the newest fanciest clubs that appeared on the market.

    If golf was a real passion or interest for them, they would find a way to stay playing. But the interest faded. And as per the stats above, the number of golfers is slashed while the number of clubs has stayed the same, and those with the real interest (and the 10 year old irons) are left.

    I'd say the amount of registered race horse owners has slipped a lot aswell. Another luxury people allowed themselves when money was no object, albeit they probably had zero real interest in it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    mike12 wrote: »
    If there are 135,000 golfers in 430 clubs that is a average of 313 golfers per club, when there were 263 clubs and 100000 members it was 380 per club. At the same time Society golf and Casual green fees are much higher now than they were 10 years ago. The clubs that are in real trouble are the ones that built new club houses and are struggling to repay loans. I'd even say a lot of the NAMA courses are actually running at a profit if you took away the debt element.
    If the bar isn't loosing money then the cost of maintenace can be kept to a high standard without breaking the bank.

    I thought I saw an article somewhere in the last year or so which would broadly back up your stats, but it also mentioned that a rough threshold of 500 members was regarded as being required to keep a club viable. Will try to find it and dig it out.


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