Burns Adult/weight loss

sadie06

Hello all,

We slowly phased our 9 month old Schnauzer over from Burns puppy Chicken and Rice to the adult version, as advised to do at 9 months on the Burns bags and website. I was shocked to read how much less food in weight he would be getting (just over half the amount daily) but was reassured that it was more densely packed with nutrients etc. We lowered the amount very slowly, increasing the adult food daily until he was fully switched over.

We just could't leave him on the measly portion suggested (going by his weight, which was 7.5 kg) which was 75g divided into 2 portions morning and night, so we have been giving him closer to 85g.

He gets a denta stick nearly every day, and a Kong stuffed with peanut butter, banana and kibble 2-3 times a week if he is going to be alone for a few hours. Also training treats a few times a week.

He has been fully on the adult diet for about a week and a half, and I noticed whilst brushing him that he was thinner. We weighed him today at the vets, and he is down from 7.5kg to 7.3 kg. The poor fella. I feel so guilty!

Is it ill advised to completely ignore the suggested food portions? Any advice appreciated.

Nody

Suggested portions is just that; suggestions. Having said that if you find him being to thin then increase it a bit instead. Oh and please stop feeding him denta bits (it's poor quality sugar pills if it's the once I'm thinking off); if you want to keep his teeth clean give him a meaty bone once a week instead to gnaw on instead.

sadie06

Nody wrote: »

Suggested portions is just that; suggestions. Having said that if you find him being to thin then increase it a bit instead. Oh and please stop feeding him denta bits (it's poor quality sugar pills if it's the once I'm thinking off); if you want to keep his teeth clean give him a meaty bone once a week instead to gnaw on instead.

Patronising in tone, as I'm sure you are aware, but I'll take it on board.

Thanks for the response.

odckdo

I fed my dogs Burns chicken & rice in the past. It is a good food but there are better ones out there esp. with the high price of Burns these days.

Burns suits some dogs very well but not all. It is well known that feeding Burns keeps your dog slim or skinny (depending on which way you look at). Even increasing the amount you feed won't make a difference as there is nearly 70% rice in the ingredients.

The Burns folks say it is a complete food so no need to add anything extra but I am sure you don't have to stick to this rule.

I was onto Burns before about weight loss and one suggestion I got was to use there working dog food 'Active' or 'Puppy Original' - both which have less rice, more meat and more fat - do half & half with existing food.

I fed Burns for a number of years and they were all slim which I suppose is better than being over weight!

sadie06

That's very interesting odckdo! I'll look into supplementing. I'm happy with Burns overall, as he has good energy levels, and a lovely coat. Best of all, no smelly farts, which I remember as being nauseating when growing up with our family dogs.

odckdo

I find the Burns website to be one of the better ones for advice. They also have a facility to 'chat' to their nutritionists on their website.

http://burnspet.co.uk/myfaq/content/9/18/en/my-dog-is-underweight-can-i-just-increase-feeding-amounts.html

"If your dog has a slight covering of flesh over their ribs and a waistline they are at their ideal, if there is no cover over the ribs they are underweight. Feeding more seems logical but often does not help, many dogs will simply go to the toilet more. Feeding a more energy dense diet at the recommended quantities is usually more effective as the digestive tract is not being overloaded and can still effectively process the food.

Using one of the puppy foods is the easiest way to increase the energy density of the diet but a maintenance diet can be supplemented with extra protein and fat if preferred, fried eggs and fish in oil such as tuna or sardines are often good choices. For older dogs extra protein can overwork the kidneys so for these dogs supplementing with extra cooked rice and some extra vegetable oil may be more suitable. For more information please call our free helpline."

Pretzill

sadie06 wrote: »

Hello all,

We slowly phased our 9 month old Schnauzer over from Burns puppy Chicken and Rice to the adult version, as advised to do at 9 months on the Burns bags and website. I was shocked to read how much less food in weight he would be getting (just over half the amount daily) but was reassured that it was more densely packed with nutrients etc. We lowered the amount very slowly, increasing the adult food daily until he was fully switched over.

We just could't leave him on the measly portion suggested (going by his weight, which was 7.5 kg) which was 75g divided into 2 portions morning and night, so we have been giving him closer to 85g.

He gets a denta stick nearly every day, and a Kong stuffed with peanut butter, banana and kibble 2-3 times a week if he is going to be alone for a few hours. Also training treats a few times a week.

He has been fully on the adult diet for about a week and a half, and I noticed whilst brushing him that he was thinner. We weighed him today at the vets, and he is down from 7.5kg to 7.3 kg. The poor fella. I feel so guilty!

Is it ill advised to completely ignore the suggested food portions? Any advice appreciated.

Hi I also feed Burns my pup is 9.5kg but since he went above 5kgs he's been getting between 150-200grams per day -When I move him onto adult he will probably get between 200-250 - are you sure you're reading the rec ammount right (I could be reading wrong too )

75grams split seems awfully skimpy or do you mean 150 in total?

odckdo

Pretzill wrote: »

Hi I also feed Burns my pup is 9.5kg but since he went above 5kgs he's been getting between 150-200grams per day -When I move him onto adult he will probably get between 200-250 - are you sure you're reading the rec ammount right (I could be reading wrong too )

75grams split seems awfully skimpy or do you mean 150 in total?

Burns is 10g per kilo so 75g/day is right for the OP's dog of 7.5kg.

Burns insist on this for their guidelines. For example on average each of their treats weigh 10g so they expect you to reduce your dog's meal by 10g for each treat!

sadie06

Pretzill wrote: »

Hi I also feed Burns my pup is 9.5kg but since he went above 5kgs he's been getting between 150-200grams per day -When I move him onto adult he will probably get between 200-250 - are you sure you're reading the rec ammount right (I could be reading wrong too )

75grams split seems awfully skimpy or do you mean 150 in total?

I presumed the same, but no, they get far less of the adult food, as odckdo detailed.

Pretzill

odckdo wrote: »

Burns is 10g per kilo so 75g/day is right for the OP's dog of 7.5kg.

Burns insist on this for their guidelines. For example on average each of their treats weigh 10g so they expect you to reduce your dog's meal by 10g for each treat!

well my other guys are getting 200-250 but then they're 20kg which works out - no weight loss on that - the pup is a smaller guy probably max 12kg when grown, but I must check the adult bag again because he too has a tendency to be slimmer!

Zapperzy

Burns fed dogs tend to be very lean but he shouldn't be losing weight as a pup, at 9 months he's still growing and filling out so I'd up the daily amount or bulk it up with some potato, meat, tinned fish and raw or cooked egg.

I'd echo what someone said further up about denta sticks, not meaning to sound patronising at all, I used to give them to my dog too until I read up on them a bit more, they are pretty poor quality (poor quality ingredients, pedigree isin't known for using good quality ingredients) and there isin't much benefit to your dog's teeth. A whole raw carrot or a raw chicken wing a few times a week is a healthier, more beneficial, alternative. Even better is brushing his teeth with a doggy toothbrush

sadie06

Zapperzy wrote: »

Burns fed dogs tend to be very lean but he shouldn't be losing weight as a pup, at 9 months he's still growing and filling out so I'd up the daily amount or bulk it up with some potato, meat, tinned fish and raw or cooked egg.

I'd echo what someone said further up about denta sticks, not meaning to sound patronising at all, I used to give them to my dog too until I read up on them a bit more, they are pretty poor quality (poor quality ingredients, pedigree isin't known for using good quality ingredients) and there isin't much benefit to your dog's teeth. A whole raw carrot or a raw chicken wing a few times a week is a healthier, more beneficial, alternative. Even better is brushing his teeth with a doggy toothbrush

Thanks for the advice. We are definitely going to supplement. Re: the dentastix, you don't sound patronising at all! I have to admit I fell for the 'scientific research' blurb about them. We haven't ever given him a bone yet, so that's next on the list to try.

ZiabR

Zapperzy wrote: »

I'd echo what someone said further up about denta sticks, not meaning to sound patronising at all, I used to give them to my dog too until I read up on them a bit more, they are pretty poor quality (poor quality ingredients, pedigree isin't known for using good quality ingredients) and there isin't much benefit to your dog's teeth. A whole raw carrot or a raw chicken wing a few times a week is a healthier, more beneficial, alternative. Even better is brushing his teeth with a doggy toothbrush

I would second this. I get shin bones from the butchers which mine love and their gums and teeth are very health. I also feed raw carrot.

sadie06

Sorry to drag this up again, but we are done with Burns. Our 11 month old mini schnauzer is not thriving on it. He has no tummy upsets, or wind, but we find it hard to keep his weight up despite now feeding way above the suggested guidelines and supplementing. We have come to the conclusion that the problem is malabsorption.

We are towards the end of a bag, and want to switch to a food that is higher in meat/protein content. Our groomer suggested Orijen, but I just don't think it's in our budget.

Any suggestions of an alternative would be welcome, as we want to turn this around as quickly as possible (obviously transitioning slowly at first). We have investigated the raw diet, and just don't feel it's a viable option for us right now, so another dry food is really what we are looking for.

Thanks all.

odckdo

There are loads of good foods available esp. online.

Lots of people on here use Skinners (Amazon) or Markus Mühle (Zooplus) - both at a good price.

Taste of The Wild would be a good alternative to Orijen. High meat content but cheaper I think.

James Wellbeloved or Clinivet are others.

Irish foods: Gain Elite or Red Mills.

I switched my lot from Burns to Barking Heads and they are doing well on it. Higher meat content. We tried Orijen before and found it too rich for 2 of my dogs. Barking Heads has a better balance for my dogs.

fatmammycat

odckdo wrote: »

There are loads of good foods available esp. online.


I switched my lot from Burns to Barking Heads and they are doing well on it. Higher meat content. We tried Orijen before and found it too rich for 2 of my dogs. Barking Heads has a better balance for my dogs.

+ 1 on Barking Heads. My friend feeds her two dogs on it and they are thriving. She has a GSD (with a senstive stomach) and a Collie cross.

sadie06

Thanks so much for the swift replies. I'm getting reading now!

Tranceypoo

I think Barking Heads is very good, I was feeding my lad on the 'Fat Dog Slim' one a good while ago to get his weight down and then onto the Salmon one, however we got another dog and just couldn't afford a 12kg bag at 50 euro which only lasted 3 weeks tops (I believe it's gone up in price since then), tried a few others (including Burns) and the younger one was very 'meh' about them all, then found Markus Muhle on Zooplus, 2x 15kg bags for 76 euro and free delivery and even the fussy eater loves it , the only thing I would say about it is feed slightly less than the recommended amount initially and monitor your dogs weight, another poster on here who feeds it, Snoman, said that someone at MM advised him to do that, which caused me to review how much I was feeding my two and I cut back a bit from the RDA.

DBB

sadie06 wrote: »

Sorry to drag this up again, but we are done with Burns. Our 11 month old mini schnauzer is not thriving on it. He has no tummy upsets, or wind, but we find it hard to keep his weight up despite now feeding way above the suggested guidelines and supplementing. We have come to the conclusion that the problem is malabsorption.

Although your dog doesn't appear to be showing any of the usual symptoms of a malabsorption problem, if you genuinely feel that it's something as serious as malabsorption, it'd be a good idea to get it definitively diagnosed by your vet, rather than tinkering around with different foods and hoping for the best.
His lack of symptoms other than thin-ness could easily be because he's burning it up via growth and activity, despite being fed more than Burns recommend. Burns are well known for recommending rather small portions, and doesn't strike me as a food that's ideal for putting condition on dogs, on the contrary it seems to be regularly recommended for dogs that need to shed weight!

moving_home

We had the same issue with Burns. It's a good food but just didn't agree with our cocker spaniel. We changed to Eukanuba and found it great.

Edited to add our dog is EXTREMELY active and at 4, she's never had any weight issues. In fact the groomer always remarks how she looks skinny as she (groomer) is used to seeing overweight cockers. So it makes me think Burns might not be great for active dogs.

sadie06

Thanks for the advice all. We are reading lots, so thanks for the suggestions.

DBB, he is an active dog, but I have tried to curb activity a little until we get this sorted. The groomer (a former vet nurse) felt his gums and inner eye lids were a little pale. I've been supplementing his food with tuna, stuffed congs etc for the last week, and today he seemed much perkier.

moving_home

sadie06 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice all. We are reading lots, so thanks for the suggestions.

DBB, he is an active dog, but I have tried to curb activity a little until we get this sorted. The groomer (a former vet nurse) felt his gums and inner eye lids were a little pale. I've been supplementing his food with tuna, stuffed congs etc for the last week, and today he seemed much perkier.

Actually the pale gums and lids coupled with the weight loss would bother me slightly. My dog actually had anaemia and had symptoms like this. Totally unrelated to Burns but might be worth a check up with vet?

boomerang

Sadie I think you need to involve your vet to rule out the medical issues you think he may have. I am only a vet nurse, but from this distance it doesn't sound like malabsorption; the dog or cat will be considerably underweight and the faeces are typically pale. Two things will help confirm a diagnosis: blood tests on the one hand, and an improvement in body weight once started on pancreatic enzymes on the other.

Re: the pale gums: If the dog genuinely appears anaemic, then you definitely need to make an appointment with the vet. Anaemia in dogs is very rarely linked to an iron deficiency.

Just to reiterate, I'm only a vet nurse (and therefore not qualified to diagnose) so please take the advice with a pinch of salt and seek advice from your vet.

To be honest though, I think you're probably worrying un-necessarily as he is a young, active dog. I've seen many dogs struggle to maintain weight on Burns (including my own dogs) and there is nothing wrong with increasing the portion size until his weight reaches a plateau. That said, Skinners Field and Trial is very close to Burns both in quality and ingredients, and is at least a third cheaper per 15kg, plus you'd probably have to feed less to maintain your dog's weight on it.

sadie06

Thanks for all that info Boomerang, it's very helpful. I'd say you are a brilliant vet nurse!

Millem

sadie06 wrote: »

Hello all,

We slowly phased our 9 month old Schnauzer over from Burns puppy Chicken and Rice to the adult version, as advised to do at 9 months on the Burns bags and website. I was shocked to read how much less food in weight he would be getting (just over half the amount daily) but was reassured that it was more densely packed with nutrients etc. We lowered the amount very slowly, increasing the adult food daily until he was fully switched over.

We just could't leave him on the measly portion suggested (going by his weight, which was 7.5 kg) which was 75g divided into 2 portions morning and night, so we have been giving him closer to 85g.

He gets a denta stick nearly every day, and a Kong stuffed with peanut butter, banana and kibble 2-3 times a week if he is going to be alone for a few hours. Also training treats a few times a week.

He has been fully on the adult diet for about a week and a half, and I noticed whilst brushing him that he was thinner. We weighed him today at the vets, and he is down from 7.5kg to 7.3 kg. The poor fella. I feel so guilty!

Is it ill advised to completely ignore the suggested food portions? Any advice appreciated.

I posted 2 years ago about one of my dogs who looked skinny on burns, she has since moved to skinners duck and rice and looks brilliant! It has filled her out without making her overweight! One of my other dogs is still on burns (as it contains no beet pulp) but I buy "burns alert" in 6kg from amazon it is the exact same as normal burns but is vat free and marketed for assistance dogs! It works out cheaper than a small normal bag of burns!

sadie06

After trawling through the massive amount of info (I have percentages swimming in front of my eyes) we are giving Husse Lamm & Ris a go. Just received samples (2 x 200g bags) to the door from the local rep, so I'll let you know how we get on.

It's supposed to be extremely digestible.

tk123

sadie06 wrote: »

After trawling through the massive amount of info (I have percentages swimming in front of my eyes) we are giving Husse Lamm & Ris a go. Just received samples (2 x 200g bags) to the door from the local rep, so I'll let you know how we get on.

It's supposed to be extremely digestible.

I'd forget percentages or (anything reps tell you) and look at the ingredients in what you're feeding. You're best with a meat source as the first ingredient - not rice/wheat etc. If your dog isn't thriving then you may need to try different foods until you get one that works. Have you considered a good quality wet food eg NatureDiet or zooplus brands like Rocco/Rinti/Luath?
My dog never thrived on Burns either and had a bad reaction to Luath (which is pretty much the same). I had some success with grain free foods but eventually switched to raw (partly because I was confused with percentages too lol). I still use dry food for treats/kong fillings though and use Markus Muhle which they both love. My pup is 11 months old too and in great condition. She's was fed a mix of raw and NatureDiet/Rocco until 9 months - I left her on puppy food a few months longer because she was a bit thin.

sadie06

Just reporting back in to say that the Husse did not work out either. We trawled the net again, and settled on Purizon Chicken and Fish. It seems to be closest to Orijen in terms of the ingredients.

We kept a close eye as while most of the reviews were glowing, some mentioned extreme flatulence and loose stools. His stools loosened a little during the transition but returned to normal, and he has had no wind issues.

The turn around in his health has been incredible. We have monitored his weight carefully, and he has gone from 6.9kg to 7.25 at a a steady pace. We'd like to get him to 7.5.

He went for his pet passport yesterday and got the once over. Vet said his gums and inner eyelids are a very healthy colour, and that we have him in great shape. I don't think he would have said that 6 weeks ago!


So hopefully we are finally out of the woods. He loves the food, it agrees with him, and he is thriving on it. I just hope his weight loss hasn't caused any lasting damage that we are unaware of. The choice of food is just mind boggling….parenting was way easier! Tin of SMA….sorted! :-)


P.S I can't tell you how much we love this guy. He has completely changed our lives. We are going on holidays this year to a destination chosen for its pet friendliness (Cornwall) in a car my husband never would have seen himself choosing, also a pet friendly option. We adore him!

aonb

Thats great to hear.
Any chance of a Photo?
LOVE schnauzers - my sisters friends bitch is whelping as I type - shes had 3 puppies so far, and hoping for 7 :eek:

sadie06

aonb wrote: »

Thats great to hear.
Any chance of a Photo?
LOVE schnauzers - my sisters friends bitch is whelping as I type - shes had 3 puppies so far, and hoping for 7 :eek:

I can't imagine going through the stress of that….I'd be up the walls. Hope it all goes well!

Here is a puppy photo of him, and one from very recently also.

aonb

He's GORGEOUS!

Gael23

What causes those smelly farts? They really can be quite nauseating.