The retreat from marriage.

Or this being After Hours. wealth and education = happy marriage.

There is suppose to be a retreat from marriage in the west?, however looking around me I think marriage is as popular as ever, but maybe that's just in my milieu. What I do see around me are couples getting married later and delaying having children till their mid to late thirties. A lot of the research emanates from the US, In the Irish context the ESRI had some really interesting statistics about family life and we are broadly following the same pattern which is.

Couple are getting married later in life than previous generations and the age of first child birth has risen.

Higher social economic groups are more likely, to get married and stay married.

Lower social economic groups are more likely to experience, never been married or to experience marriage brake up and are more likely to be lone parents.

This if from the marriage project in the US

Over the last four decades, many Americans have moved away from identifying with an “institutional” model of marriage, which seeks to integrate sex, parenthood, economic cooperation, and emotional intimacy in a permanent union. This model has been overwritten by the “soul mate” model, which sees marriage as primarily a couple-centred vehicle for personal growth, emotional intimacy, and shared consumption that depends for its survival on the happiness of both spouses. Thus where marriage used to serve as the gateway to responsible adulthood, it has come to be increasingly seen as a capstone of sorts that signals couples have arrived, both financially and emotionally—or are on the cusp of arriving.

So do you think there is a retreat form marriage in Ireland?

RobbieTheRobber

Marriage for some mini abortions for others yeahhhhhh!

pickarooney

American men are understandably scared of marriage as they routinely get absolutely fleeced by divorce. I don't think the same applies in Europe, at least not to the same extent.

If you read the ESRI statistics we are, more or less headed in the same direction and some things are almost exactly the same for example the connection between loan parenting and education level, in both the US and Ireland the lower your education the more likely you are to experience lone parenthood.

newport2

A lot of my friends who are women in their late 30s/early 40s are single. Most really want to meet someone, but can't seem to (through no fault on their part). I think less people are getting married, but not necessarily through choice. One reason for this is that I think over the last 10 - 20 years, women's expectations in what they expect from a partner have increased (rightly so IMO, women used to put up with a lot more than they do now), but men have not changed as much as that.

beano345

pickarooney wrote: »

American men are understandably scared of marriage as they routinely get absolutely fleeced by divorce. I don't think the same applies in Europe, at least not to the same extent.

Seems to be a growing marriage strike by men in the us,think its on the decline in the UK too I read somewere

Son Of A Vidic

mariaalice wrote: »

wealth and education = happy marriage.

Fyp.

Lou.m

mariaalice wrote: »

Or this being After Hours. wealth and education = happy marriage.

There is suppose to be a retreat from marriage in the west?, however looking around me I think marriage is as popular as ever, but maybe that's just in my milieu. What I do see around me are couples getting married later and delaying having children till their mid to late thirties. A lot of the research emanates from the US, In the Irish context the ESRI had some really interesting statistics about family life and we are broadly following the same pattern which is.

Couple are getting married later in life than previous generations and the age of first child birth has risen.

Higher social economic groups are more likely, to get married and stay married.

Lower social economic groups are more likely to experience, never been married or to experience marriage brake up and are more likely to be loan parents.

This if from the marriage project in the US

Over the last four decades, many Americans have moved away from identifying with an “institutional” model of marriage, which seeks to integrate sex, parenthood, economic cooperation, and emotional intimacy in a permanent union. This model has been overwritten by the “soul mate” model, which sees marriage as primarily a couple-centred vehicle for personal growth, emotional intimacy, and shared consumption that depends for its survival on the happiness of both spouses. Thus where marriage used to serve as the gateway to responsible adulthood, it has come to be increasingly seen as a capstone of sorts that signals couples have arrived, both financially and emotionally—or are on the cusp of arriving.

So do you think there is a retreat form marriage in Ireland?

I think people are concerned with this not being a good time economically to get married and start a family.

It is nothing to do with not wanting to commit people just don't want to put themselves and partner in the position of bad credit etc.

I think when you have an unpredictable economy people are cautious. If you want to settle down you want to make sure you can do so with security and obviously if you want kids then you need to be able to provide for them whilst either still being able to have one partner stay at home or being able to afford childcare.

I think we will see more people simply living together or marrying and not having kids for a while until they are financially stable.

Maybe it is not a sign of people not respecting marriage but a sign that they do very much take it seriously and respect it. But it is not a great time in Ireland.

I think more and more Irish men and women see marriage as proof of success economically and emotionally even guys now. I think marriage is to 2014 what the mortgage was to 2002.

American men are understandably scared of marriage as they routinely get absolutely fleeced by divorce. I don't think the same applies in Europe, at least not to the same extent.

Pre Nup !

I think the state of affairs differs in the US from state to state. In some states they allow prenups in some I think they may be invalid and go for a 50 50 split or different division of assets.

I think in Ireland you can have your own prenup now. I have always thought they were a good idea. It means everyone knows where they are etc.

Lou.m

I know I would be wary of marriage right now. Ireland seems to be getting a worse and worse place to settle. Let's face it it's crap. And he people who got burned the most in the meltdown were young families and the people of our generation who had the best chance were young singles who could be flexible and leave.

To many Irish people have families before they are financially secure I think.

Lou.m

Lou.m wrote: »

I think people are concerned with this not being a good time economically to get married and start a family.

It is nothing to do with not wanting to commit people just don't want to put themselves and partner in the position of bad credit etc.

I think when you have an unpredictable economy people are cautious. If you want to settle down you want to make sure you can do so with security and obviously if you want kids then you need to be able to provide for them whilst either still being able to have one partner stay at home or being able to afford childcare.

I think we will see more people simply living together or marrying and not having kids for a while until they are financially stable.

Maybe it is not a sign of people not respecting marriage but a sign that they do very much take it seriously and respect it. But it is not a great time in Ireland.

I think more and more Irish men and women see marriage as proof of success economically and emotionally even guys now. I think marriage is to 2014 what the mortgage was to 2002.



Pre Nup !

I think the state of affairs differs in the US from state to state. In some states they allow prenups in some I think they may be invalid and go for a 50 50 split or different division of assets.

I think in Ireland you can have your own prenup now. I have always thought they were a good idea. It means everyone knows where they are etc.

While all that is true, how come when society was very much poorer people still got married its not explained by lack of money alone.

Addle

newport2 wrote: »

A lot of my friends who are women in their late 30s/early 40s are single. Most really want to meet someone, but can't seem to (through no fault on their part). I think less people are getting married, but not necessarily through choice. One reason for this is that I think over the last 10 - 20 years, women's expectations in what they expect from a partner have increased (rightly so IMO, women used to put up with a lot more than they do now), but men have not changed as much as that.

Anyone I know (am in my early 30s and from the west) in a relationship is married.
I find that any spinsters I know that actively want to get married and start a family have unrealistic expectations, so imo it is their own fault they are single.

Wedding days are definitely not out of fashion here.
A lasting marriage retaining mutual respect seems to be though.

hatrickpatrick

People sometimes say that marriage requires faith in love. Personally, I believe a lifelong unmarried relationship requires even more faith in love - you're not relying on a contract to sort out your life in case anything goes pear shaped, which sadly is all marriage has been reduced to in this day and age.

Courtesy Flush

Divorce is just going to become more frequent. Times have changed and marriage is not for everyone. Society dictates that people should get married and many do simply out of tradition. The fact that its also welded into law probably doesnt help matters

Lou.m

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

People sometimes say that marriage requires faith in love. Personally, I believe a lifelong unmarried relationship requires even more faith in love - you're not relying on a contract to sort out your life in case anything goes pear shaped, which sadly is all marriage has been reduced to in this day and age.

I dunno if I believe in marriage but I believe in a thing called love :-)

syklops

pickarooney wrote: »

American men are understandably scared of marriage as they routinely get absolutely fleeced by divorce. I don't think the same applies in Europe, at least not to the same extent.

Men in Ireland get fleeced aswell.

Anyone I know (am in my early 30s and from the west) in a relationship is married.

Im from the west and practically everyone I was in 6th class in Primary school is married.

Conversely, of my friends who all live in Dublin, only a couple are married and the majority are like myself, together but not married, many of them have kids as well.

newport2

newport2 wrote: »

A lot of my friends who are women in their late 30s/early 40s are single. Most really want to meet someone, but can't seem to (through no fault on their part). I think less people are getting married, but not necessarily through choice. One reason for this is that I think over the last 10 - 20 years, women's expectations in what they expect from a partner have increased (rightly so IMO, women used to put up with a lot more than they do now), but men have not changed as much as that.

very tough for a woman after 35 unfortunately for them as a lot of men are looking for women under that age.

newport2

newport2 wrote: »

A lot of my friends who are women in their late 30s/early 40s are single. Most really want to meet someone, but can't seem to (through no fault on their part). I think less people are getting married, but not necessarily through choice. One reason for this is that I think over the last 10 - 20 years, women's expectations in what they expect from a partner have increased (rightly so IMO, women used to put up with a lot more than they do now), but men have not changed as much as that.

Pretty sure if I said it wasn't my fault I don't have a girlfriend I'd be pretty quickly corrected. :P

Ihatecuddles

Sorry this is off topic a bit, but do we have 'pre nups' here?

RoboRat

Pre Nup !

The problem with a pre nup is that if its proposed to a woman that is genuinely in love with you, it will say that you don't trust her.

If its proposed to a woman that is after you money, she won't be interested either.

Its a crappy situation and the only way it works is if the other party is (a) understanding, (b) completely head over heels in love or (c) of equal wealth, in which case it's a moot point.

mauzo!

mauzo! wrote: »

Sorry this is off topic a bit, but do we have 'pre nups' here?

No
Not legally recognised

RoboRat

Sorry this is off topic a bit, but do we have 'pre nups' here?

They're not officially recognised by the courts as binding but they are persuasive if it goes down the legal route.

This is off topic, but why would you marry someone who wanted you to sign a pre nup. I have a simple solation to this all assets acquired during the marriage be divvied equally, generous provision for children until they are adults up, after that everyone look after them selves with no reference to who they use to be married to.

Sh1tbag OToole

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

People sometimes say that marriage requires faith in love. Personally, I believe a lifelong unmarried relationship requires even more faith in love - you're not relying on a contract to sort out your life in case anything goes pear shaped, which sadly is all marriage has been reduced to in this day and age.

Soon you'll be able to get married and divorced online in the same day, recognised by the state and all. Progress means it gets easier and easier to get married and divorced, just like in the States and people will complain that long drawn out divorce procedures are backwards and old fashioned.

Soon it will be only gays who bother getting married and only because they have been fighting for it for so long. Until they too see the light and realise its only the hotel and the government that do well out of marriage these days

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

This is off topic, but why would you marry someone who wanted you to sign a pre nup. I have a simple solation to this all assets acquired during the marriage be divvied equally, generous provision for children until they are adults up, after that everyone look after them selves with no reference to who they use to be married to.

In a way, I can understand if there is a massive difference in what they're "bringing" to the marriage and you've worked hard to build up or earn what you have, that you don't want to risk losing it if things go wrong.
But personally I wouldn't sign one at all, I'm in the "if you don't trust me why are you marrying me" camp. Maybe it won't last forever, but I don't want someone else's money, I'll fend for myself thanks

RoboRat

I have a simple solation to this all assets acquired during the marriage be divvied equally

In most cases that may be fair but what about the gold diggers who marry purely for money? What about situations where a person was married had kids and subsequently widowed and remarried, should the new spouse be entitled to 50/50 when they may not have contributed? Should they take 50% of what should realistically be handed down to the children.

This is where it gets complicated.

maguic24

Courtesy Flush wrote: »

Divorce is just going to become more frequent. Times have changed and marriage is not for everyone. Society dictates that people should get married and many do simply out of tradition. The fact that its also welded into law probably doesnt help matters

I disagree. I actually don't think there is as much pressure nowadays to get married. I think people get married more for tax reasons and for father rights rather than religious or traditional reasons. A lot more couples are having children before marriage nowadays and then eventually getting married.

A lot of women are also delaying getting married and having children for career reasons, putting off marriage and kids until they are financially secure. I think the divorce rate in future years will actually begin to fall. You are more likely to want to settle down when you are in your 30's rather than when you are in your 20's. I know this isn't the case for everyone but it seems to be the case for a lot of people.

ScumLord

mariaalice wrote: »

This is off topic, but why would you marry someone who wanted you to sign a pre nup.

Because most relationships don't last and most couples that loved each other once turn on each other during a break up.

I think it should be standard practice to have a prenup, as far as I'm concern marriage is a contract, it's not out of the ordinary for there to be some provision for failure in a contract that allows the two parties to walk away from each other.

RoboRat

RoboRat wrote: »

In most cases that may be fair but what about the gold diggers who marry purely for money? What about situations where a person was married had kids and subsequently widowed and remarried, should the new spouse be entitled to 50/50 when they may not have contributed? Should they take 50% of what should realistically be handed down to the children.

This is where it gets complicated.

I said acquired during the marriage so what you have before or after dose not apply to former spouses, however provision for children is different.

In a way that is connected to my original post, modern marriage and child rearing is hugely expensive, even in my lifetime there has been an expediential rise in the type of parenting that society expects and a rises in expectations of marriage (soul mate/the one etc. ) and a rise in expectations around lifestyle, belief that your should have a fulfilling career and so no. Unless you are wealthy to begin with a couple divorcing with never have enough money to maintain the lifestyle they had when they were married and thats what causes a lot of the problems.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

strobe

Having sex outside of marriage used to be seen as shameful, having children out of wedlock similarly. It was fairly certain that amongst the generations that grew up without these hang ups there would be a lower rate of marriage.

People have always gotten married and married as young as they did in a large part so that they could have sex and kids (but mainly sex) without guilt and shame and with societies approval. Thankfully that's all but done away with now.

I'm sure there's other contributory factors of course but thats the main one IMO.

Addle

Fred Swanson wrote: »

The only reason I got married was to avail of the more advantageous tax situation afforded to married people.

Only an advantage if one spouse doesn't work or has low income.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

strobe

strobe wrote: »

Having sex outside of marriage used to be seen as shameful, having children out of wedlock similarly. It was fairly certain that amongst the generations that grew up without these hang ups there would be a lower rate of marriage.

People have always gotten married and married as young as they did in a large part so that they could have sex and kids (but mainly sex) with societies approval. Thankfully that's all but done away with now.

I'm sure there's other contributory factors of course but thats the main one IMO.

That does not explain the difference in marriage rates among different socio economic groups i.e the wealthier and better educated you are the more likely you are to get married and stay married.

Electric Sheep

mariaalice wrote: »

That does not explain the difference in marriage rates among different socio economic groups i.e the wealthier and better educated you are the more likely you are to get married and stay married.

Well, in Ireland that would be explained by the welfare system making it more lucrative to stay single (at least legally single).

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

That does not explain the difference in marriage rates among different socio economic groups i.e the wealthier and better educated you are the more likely you are to get married and stay married.

More to lose? Do they also get married later?

beano345

Marriage and population rates are dropping in Japan so much that the government is really taking notice,33% of Japanese think marriage is pointless

Ray Palmer

newport2 wrote: »

A lot of my friends who are women in their late 30s/early 40s are single. Most really want to meet someone, but can't seem to (through no fault on their part). I think less people are getting married, but not necessarily through choice. One reason for this is that I think over the last 10 - 20 years, women's expectations in what they expect from a partner have increased (rightly so IMO, women used to put up with a lot more than they do now), but men have not changed as much as that.

I am sorry if your friends can't find a relationship with men who are their peers I find it hard to see that as no fault of theirs.

To suggest men haven't changed is also something I would have strong objections to. Firstly you might notice when people were getting older they do not suddenly become exactly the same as people older than them just by being the same sex. Blaming a man born in the 80s for the actions of his sex in the 60s,70s,80s,90s it pretty ridiculous. As is taking credit as a woman for changes in a time you weren't a woman.

I completely get why people like to claim credit but they are in no way responsible for it.

The truth is everybody has been conned into being told what roles to take rather than finding what role they feel comfortable in.

Inequality towards young men is on the rise and should be addressed.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

The state pays for children now, never mind not needing marriage to raise a family anymore, we don't need men anymore. :pac:

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

More to lose? Do they also get married later?

There are several theories about way this is happening, some of them are silly and a bit loaded they divide in to two.

The political right say it is caused by welfare policies that encourage lone parenting by women and marginalise men.

That as soon as men did not have to get married to get access to sex they abandoned marriage in droves.

The decline of religious in society.



The political left say it is cause by poverty and insecure employment which means men from lower socio economic groups feel they can barly keep them selves and cant invest financially and emotionally in marriage.

Women for lower socio economic groups think they are better off on their own when they have children because thy don't think they will find the sort of soul mate/ the one type of marriage amount the men they know.

strobe

mariaalice wrote: »

That does not explain the difference in marriage rates among different socio economic groups i.e the wealthier and better educated you are the more likely you are to get married and stay married.

It doesn't, no. But it wasn't meant to.

Electric Sheep

mariaalice wrote: »

Women for lower socio economic groups think they are better off on their own when they have children because thy don't think they will find the sort of soul mate/ the one type of marriage amount the men they know.

If both the mother and her partner are on social welfare, they ARE better off financially to be unmarried. In addition to the extra benefits, the woman will be getting her own benefit into her own hand, rather than depending on her partner to give her money.