Maximum Crew hours in one day? Return transatlantic flight with same crew?

mmc272

Probably I silly question but ill ask anyways?

I was on a flight las year from LPA to BFS. The flight was
dep bfs 1410
arr lpa 1845
dep lpa 1945
arr bfs 0015

However the flight was delayed due to a technical fault and we were kept on the plane throughout the delay.
dep lpa 01.15
arr bfs 05.45

This would have made a 15hr 35 mins on duty.

The bfs to ssh has a return time of 13hr.

Why couldnt an Aer lingus east coast flight do a return journey with the same crew?
If Im not mistaken the current DUB-BOS 137/136 schedule is
dep dub 14.00
arr bos 16.05
dep bos 18.15
arr dub 05.15

Making a 15hr 5 mins return Shorter than the above delayed flight. Also the turnaround of the a330 could be reduced by 40 mins to 90 mins making it 14 hr 25 mins

bkehoe

The crew on your BFS flight would have used discretion to legally extend their duty period in order to return to their home base. 13 hours is the longest duty period a crew can be rostered for a 2 sector day. This time includes pre-flight duties (so duty starts perhaps 1 hour before the scheduled departure time) and depending on the airline, post flight duties and also includes the turnaround time.

A crew couldn't be rostered to operate a segment where they knew they couldn't perform the flight within the legal limits. And there is no obligation on a crew to avail of discretion in a delayed flight situation - if the captain feels the crew may be too fatigued then thats it...

Some airlines use an extra crew member so that during the cruise one pilot can go back to the cabin and 'rest' in a cordoned off row of seats/business class seat (if its a short haul aircraft) or in larger wide body aircraft, a crew rest area with bunk beds away from the passengers. The duty time extensions vary a lot with this setup and would depend on individual authorities and their airlines approvals.

Tenger

mmc272 wrote: »

Probably I silly question but ill ask anyways?

..........
Why couldnt an Aer lingus east coast flight do a return journey with the same crew?
If Im not mistaken the current DUB-BOS 137/136
dep dub 14.00
arr bos 16.05
dep bos 16.15
arr dub 05.05
.......

Using the info in the above reply you really don't want to be flying home before dawn with crew onboard who have been awake approx 20-22 hours, and on duty for the last 14-15 hours of that time. (Clock on 1230, arrive back 0500 the next morning)

ProfessorPlum

"This would have made a 15hr 35 mins on duty."

Add in the WOCL (the time when your body really,really wants to be asleep), and it's a major :eek::eek:

Do passengers really want to fly on that aircraft??

IRLConor

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Do passengers really want to fly on that aircraft??

I'd be knackered being a passenger on a back-to-back DUB-BOS BOS-DUB never mind working on it!

smurfjed

I've flown SNN-JFK-LBG round trip! it absolutely sucked! it took me about two days to recover I would hate to have to do it on a regular basis.

ProfessorPlum

smurfjed wrote: »

I've flown SNN-JFK-LBG round trip! it absolutely sucked! it took me about two days to recover I would hate to have to do it on a regular basis.

Augmented/heavy crew??

smurfjed

Actually we are allowed to do this single crew But we took double and changed seats to suit who wanted to fly which portion, rather than 50%/50%.

djmcr

mmc272 wrote: »

Probably I silly question but ill ask anyways?

I was on a flight las year from LPA to BFS. The flight was
dep bfs 1410
arr lpa 1845
dep lpa 1945
arr bfs 0015

However the flight was delayed due to a technical fault and we were kept on the plane throughout the delay.
dep lpa 01.15
arr bfs 05.45

This would have made a 15hr 35 mins on duty.

The bfs to ssh has a return time of 13hr.

Why couldnt an Aer lingus east coast flight do a return journey with the same crew?
If Im not mistaken the current DUB-BOS 137/136
dep dub 14.00
arr bos 16.05
dep bos 16.15
arr dub 05.05

Making a 15hr 5 mins return Shorter than the above delayed flight. Also the turnaround of the a330 could be reduced by 40 mins to 90 mins making it 14 hr 25 mins

You have a 10 min window in Boston to get passengers off arriving aircraft, presumably get to another aircraft (or are you going to turnaround aircraft in 10 minutes) and do all the necessary paperwork and boarding procedures on the new aircraft.

highlydebased

If it were to arrive DUB at 0505 that would make a departure time from Boston of about 1915 local surely?

mmc272

sorry that supposed to be dep bos 18:15 arr dub 05.15 as per current schedule

Could they not do a 757 turnaround on the same aircraft in an hour. That makes 7 hours going and 6 coming back + 1 hour turnaround. 14 hours and the flight times are normally more shorter than this. Not much difference to ssh flights. ssh flights dep dub at 0940 arr dub 22.40. If they left dub for Bos at 9.40 return to dub 23.40?

djmcr

http://flightimelimits.com/en/ftl-requirements/

This is an overview of crew flight time limits, see this section

OPS 1.1105 Maximum daily flight duty period (FDP)

djmcr

In relation to your example of the delayed flight also, flying time would have been approx 8hrs 30 minutes albeit with a delay incorporated in between duties. The crew would have had the opportunity for rest between flights while technical fault was sorted. In your Dub Bos example you are looking at approx

1hr pre flight Dub
7 hr to Bos
1hr turnaround
6 hr return to Dub

and no rest between time

Growler!!!

djmcr wrote: »

In relation to your example of the delayed flight also, flying time would have been approx 8hrs 30 minutes albeit with a delay incorporated in between duties. The crew would have had the opportunity for rest between flights while technical fault was sorted.

If it was the same crew then it all counts as 1 duty period. The crew are not resting during a tech fault if they are still on the aircraft!

djmcr

Growler!!! wrote: »

If it was the same crew then it all counts as 1 duty period. The crew are not resting during a tech fault if they are still on the aircraft!

I agree that they are not resting during a tech delay but it is not as taxing or stressful as flying that whole time

Growler!!!

djmcr wrote: »

I agree that they are not resting during a tech delay but it is not as taxing or stressful as flying that whole time

Really?, I find the opposite especially as I've recently changed seats. You'll find that your own ops, ground staff, engineers, crew, pax and atc are all waiting for a nod from the front seat. The cabin crew have their hands full with pax too if the pax are left onboard as they were in the O.P's example.

amen

Is the crew rest time the same for flight and cabin crew ? If not how different is it and could the cabin crew legally fly there and back in a single day ?

djmcr

Growler!!! wrote: »

Really?, I find the opposite especially as I've recently changed seats. You'll find that your own ops, ground staff, engineers, crew, pax and atc are all waiting for a nod from the front seat. The cabin crew have their hands full with pax too if the pax are left onboard as they were in the O.P's example.

Fair enough, but any of the long delays that Ive been involved with the passengers and crew disembbarked and maintenance did their work. I really can't understand how any crew could leave passengers onboard for a 6 hour delay like in the OPS case and not expect a backlass such as we saw last week.

basill

One possible reason they disembark is to do a split duty in order to get you home. There are rules regarding this and the facilities that must be available to flight crew in order that they get proper rest. Of course it all comes down to best laid plans and there is never any guarantee that the aircraft will be repaired in time or that parts/tooling will be available.

mmc272

I just think it would bring the price of the flight down if they done a return flight with the same crew.

I think now the crew currently do an outbound flight, spend the night in a hotel, travel inbound the next evening/night arriving in the morning, get a day or 2 off rest after that. Takes the crew about 3/4 days to do a return flight. (I'm not sure on this info above if anyone wants to correct me)

Would it not make more sense to do a return flight with the same crew then give them the full next day off?

e.g Dep Dub 0800
Arr Bos 1000 (1500 Dub time)
Dep Bos 1100 (1600 Dub time)
Arr Dub 2200
Not much difference to the thomson flight below (15 mins)


I know this probably wouldn't suit aer lingus flights for connections but they could put one of their flights on this and use the other flight for connections. Or another airline?

Also does anybody know what is the longest flight time a 737/320/319/321 crew do a return flight back to home base? (without getting into a debate about range as i know its currently not possible to do a transatlantic flight fully loaded)

Strumms

With respect you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Crew rest rules are the result of many studies into rest, fatigue performance etc... by teams of people much more qualified I presume then yourself. They are safeguards for crew and passengers alike which is first priority in aviation you can not have profitability without safety. There would be a million and one ways to save money and cut down on airfares and get your ass to where you want to go for a whole lot less but that would involve compromising safety.

The number of times I have been in the cockpit during a tech delay.. Many times, the only time I can recall flight crew disembarking would be if the aircraft was called hard down ie. no parts available and no fix or if the flight was cancelled. Otherwise they are communicating to company via acars for new slots, new FPR, weather etc... Liaising with the mechanics and ground crews etc too not reading the daily star..

If your only concern is bring the cost of a flight down... Try and imagine the cost of investigating a crash due to crew fatigue, loss of airframe, the non monetary cost of say lives, in the air, on the ground or both... Do some research... Google is your friend.. Plenty of examples of accidents caused by fatigue...

mmc272

As I said Strumms in my previous post, anyone feel free to correct me. I was simple asking a few questions. Is their a flight of comparable length? I never said I knew what I was talking about which is why I was asking questions here and other peoples opinions!!. Obviously anything further than Bos would make it too long.

cruais

Strumms wrote: »

With respect you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Crew rest rules are the result of many studies into rest, fatigue performance etc... by teams of people much more qualified I presume then yourself. They are safeguards for crew and passengers alike which is first priority in aviation you can not have profitability without safety. There would be a million and one ways to save money and cut down on airfares and get your ass to where you want to go for a whole lot less but that would involve compromising safety.

The number of times I have been in the cockpit during a tech delay.. Many times, the only time I can recall flight crew disembarking would be if the aircraft was called hard down ie. no parts available and no fix or if the flight was cancelled. Otherwise they are communicating to company via acars for new slots, new FPR, weather etc... Liaising with the mechanics and ground crews etc too not reading the daily star..

If your only concern is bring the cost of a flight down... Try and imagine the cost of investigating a crash due to crew fatigue, loss of airframe, the non monetary cost of say lives, in the air, on the ground or both... Do some research... Google is your friend.. Plenty of examples of accidents caused by fatigue...

+1

Suasdaguna1

Op, what you are proposing is a big smoking hole. Imagine a crew on the return leg having battled severe turbulence all the way back across the atlantic to be faced with hurricane winds of recent times, go arounds and diversions with nearly 16/17hrs duty behind them......?

I crossed the Atlantic twice in one day. Once operated boston and positoned back to london as a passenger. On arrival in the uk i was utterly fughed and that was resting though out the night iN a passenger comfy seat......and op you want me as commander in chief to guide you and your family to a safe landing with your proposal.? My 2nd crossing in one day was operating was on contract operating for a gash outfit....Lgw - deer lake in new foundland and back to lgw. To say on return at lgw i was just hanging is an understatement. The word in flitters re fatigue. Needless to say the airline folded and i moved on.

So OP, shove your proposal up where the sun dont shine as it aint going to happen. )

Kind regards

basill

I live by a simple adage. If I find myself about to do something that no one else is then I am more than likely about to make an almighty cockup. I would suggest that the OP does the same and does not take up aviation consulting as a sideline.

ProfessorPlum

OP, are you part of the strategic planning team for RyanAtlantic?

billie1b

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

OP, are you part of the strategic planning team for RyanAtlantic?

Ha, brilliant

bkehoe

Only time I disembarked from an aircraft during a tech issue was when at a remote airport and engineers due to arrive in 2 hours and we hadn't boarded the pax to begin with. Still not considered rest as we were in a public area (terminal restaurant) so all counted in duty time.

djmcr

mmc272 wrote: »

As I said Strumms in my previous post, anyone feel free to correct me. I was simple asking a few questions. Is their a flight of comparable length? I never said I knew what I was talking about which is why I was asking questions here and other peoples opinions!!. Obviously anything further than Bos would make it too long.

Do you not know that you are not allowed to ask questions on the internet