Do you ever feel sympathy for the security forces in Situations like Kiev?

Zeebs

Recent events in Ukraine have gotten me thinking, do you ever feel sorry for the state forces in these situations?

I mean it is essentially drilled into them to follow their orders and its their job to do so. In situations like Ukraine are they honestly meant to sit back and allow mobs to take over?

Consider this, official numbers for the number of protestors fluctuate between 400-650,000 out of a population of 47 million, it is simply not the case that these protestors represented the entire population and furthermore the government that was overthrown was democratically elected and elections were due in 2015 anyway.

While there were a number of deaths in the Ukrainian riots that would never happen in riots involving other european countries one cannot discount the mob they were dealing with. Not to be crude but I have a feeling that a mob of hardened Ukrainians from areas of hardship in Kiev are going to be a lot more threatening that a bunch of private schooled anarchists protesting against the G20 in London.

Even issues like there being Ukrainian snipers around, is that not fair enough considering there are a number of images of protestors carrying rifles around? If I was in charge of the police I would give the order to shoot any civilians carrying weapons on sight.

The fact is, if you are ordered to do your job and that involves stopping a mob from taking over a city and imposing law and order and in the course of doing that you see your fellow colleagues get seriously injured and feel yourself in immediate danger you are not going to just lay down. I sometimes feel that in situations like this the security forces aren't even fighting for their government anymore, they are fighting because they themselves feel under threat for just doing their job.



I find it hard not to feel sympathy for them in clubs such as these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg

Temptamperu

a mob of hardened Ukrainians from areas of hardship in Kiev

This language makes me realise your just here to be contrary.

Jonny7

It's their job to deal with rioters, this is what they are trained and equipped for, part of that training should also be the ability to exercise restraint - but they're still only human


However beating up people who are cuffed and torturing them while in custody goes far beyond this

Deliberately shooting unarmed people with sniper and assault rifles, whether ordered to or not, is nothing less than murder

somefeen

I feel sorry for everyone involved to be honest.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Who are we to judge in these situations?

Zeebs

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's their job to deal with rioters, this is what they are trained and equipped for, part of that training should also be the ability to exercise restraint - but they're still only human


However beating up people who are cuffed and torturing them while in custody goes far beyond this

Deliberately shooting unarmed people with sniper and assault rifles, whether ordered to or not, is nothing less than murder

What about beating up fallen police men with lead bars and metal pipes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkzi6-zz55M

Do you honestly think that the police could have used restraint in this circumstance? Do you think if the police dropped all their weapons in that video that the protestors would just stop and let them away?

I think by restraint you mean the police should just roll over and let the crowd do as they please? Its really not like the police just started bringing in snipers randomly, it was a response to protestors acquiring weapons and beginning to fire on police lines.

Femme_Fatale

Zeebs wrote: »

I think by restraint you mean the police should just roll over and let the crowd do as they please?

No you don't.

Zeebs

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No you don't.

O.K so tell me about what restraint the police should use.

You are completely outnumbered by a baying mob that are out to kill you. You are under constant threat of death and the only way to protect yourself is to stop the mob. When the mob is now armed with weapons that far surpass a standard police baton and your are numbered by 100 to 1 tell me how you use restraint without getting yourself killed in the process for just doing your job?

Femme_Fatale

Zeebs wrote: »

O.K so tell me about what restraint the police should use.

Not doing the following, the objection to which does not imply saying they should roll over and do nothing:

Jonny7 wrote: »

beating up people who are cuffed and torturing them while in custody goes far beyond this

Deliberately shooting unarmed people with sniper and assault rifles, whether ordered to or not, is nothing less than murder

Think_then_talk

Police lighting and then throwing petrol bombs must have run out of bullets

http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1358616/police-throw-petrol-bomb-ukraine.jpg

scopper

In a basic human sense, sure. I'm not fond of the police mindset, but I also don't like to see anyone trapped by a mob. However, as police they have a different standard to meet. That absolutely includes never shooting at unarmed citizens. Ever! In those cases where they are being fired at, then sure. That's pretty logical although for the most part the protestors did not seem especially well-armed (some hunting rifles and the odd pistol; not nothing, but not enough to warrant a full-scale response like we say). As for the nature of the protestors the government sent in their own mobs, right (alongside the police)? Shipped in from sympathetic areas. It's hard to feel that something is not quite normal there. But yes, relative to a bunch of student anarchists they needed to be tougher than police normally would be. But there is always a line and they crossed it. That's why the protestors won basically. Because once you see the State using force like that you become truly militant. How could you ever see them as your police ever again?

sopretty

No, I don't

Zeebs

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Not doing the following, the objection to which does not imply saying they should roll over and do nothing:

The protestors were certainly not unarmed. Theres very little evidence of torture in police custody by the way, theres a dozen or so claims, 3 witness accounts on BBC its hardly systemic. God knows what is happening to those captured police men

scopper

Also police abuse during all this has been pretty systematic: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/23/ukraine-police-beatings-kidnappings-kiev

average hero

Ridiculous question. Of course I feel sorry for the security forces. Put yourself in Ukraine where policeman is the only job that you can get. Maybe it's the only job that provides enough for your wife and family. And lets be honest here, the equipment and training they get is not going to be to the standard of Western security forces.

They are ordered to go out (or get thrown in jail and not paid) against a baying mob which outnumbers them hugely, while they are being shot at, molotov cocktails thrown and when they fall to the ground, they are beaten by numerous protesters (cowards) with iron bars.

Security forces are not always evil people, maybe they're doing a job just to support a family etc. Protesters are not always good peaceful revolutionaries either (particularly in the complex situation that is Ukraine) as evidenced by media reports.

So yes OP, I DO feel a lot of sympathy for the security individuals. I don't for the regime that they are working for however.

Zeebs

scopper wrote: »

Also police abuse during all this has been pretty systematic: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/23/ukraine-police-beatings-kidnappings-kiev

Yeah a dozen or so claims

Zeebs

average hero wrote: »

Ridiculous question. Of course I feel sorry for the security forces. Put yourself in Ukraine where policeman is the only job that you can get. Maybe it's the only job that provides enough for your wife and family. And lets be honest here, the equipment and training they get is not going to be to the standard of Western security forces.

They are ordered to go out (or get thrown in jail and not paid) against a baying mob which outnumbers them hugely, while they are being shot at, molotov cocktails thrown and when they fall to the ground, they are beaten by numerous protesters (cowards) with iron bars.

Security forces are not always evil people, maybe they're doing a job just to support a family etc. Protesters are not always good peaceful revolutionaries either (particularly in the complex situation that is Ukraine) as evidenced by media reports.

So yes OP, I DO feel a lot of sympathy for the security individuals. I don't for the regime that they are working for however.

This is a great point and more or less what I was trying to get at.

Gatling

Zeebs wrote: »

The protestors were certainly not unarmed. Theres very little evidence of torture in police custody by the way, theres a dozen or so claims, 3 witness accounts on BBC its hardly systemic. God knows what is happening to those captured police men

Really

o1s1n

It's hard witnessing any person in a vulnerable situation. Even when you think there's on the wrong side, it's still a person lying in the fetal position with a mob bearing down on them with sticks and rocks. Not pleasant viewing.

Stavros Murphy

I know at the start of the economic down-turn here in Ireland, most soldiers, air-corps and police were brought in and given riot training in the expectation of there being civil unrest..a lot of money was also spent on riot equipment.

So, but for the grace of God, or whatever..

on the OP question, no, I don't. You pick as side.

seamus

Actually I feel doubly-sorry for the security forces in these situations, because the decisions are much harder for them.

Go AWOL and they may find themselves out of a job if/when the rioting ends. Go into work and they may find themselves having to fire on civilians to defend themselves. They can't win.

There's a Tiananmen-Square perception in this kind of thing the rioters are fighting the good and peaceful fight against the man, and the security forces are hard-nosed robotic psychos just out to stomp on some heads. Often the security forces are overwhelmed and just fighting for their own lives. For every video of a unnecessarily sadistic baton charge, I've equally seen a video of a terrified police officer being surrounded, stripped of his gear and merciless beaten to death by a baying crowd. Civil unrest brings out the worst in everyone.

Mister Trebus

No I dont feel sorry for them.....Emperor's troops nothing more...and when the next leader barks they will jump and attack their own countrymen again....

The Th!ng

The security forces should have used tanks months ago to literally crush the prostesters into the ground. Throw a petrol bomb at police lines and you should get the business end of a flame thrower in exchange.

Gatling

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I know at the start of the economic down-turn here in Ireland, most soldiers, air-corps and police were brought in and given riot training in the expectation of there being civil unrest..

There's been riot training here for donkeys years by both the police and army ,
I've seen the lads do a riot exercise in baldonnel aerodrome poor apprentice's got battered ,

Jonny7

The Th!ng wrote: »

The security forces should have used tanks months ago to literally crush the prostesters into the ground. Throw a petrol bomb at police lines and you should get the business end of a flame thrower in exchange.

They did in Syria. Escalated. One military prison has produced over 10,000 bodies, many with eyes missing and signs of torture.

Extraordinary in the 21st century that a situation has to come to the brink of a civil war or go beyond just because one leader cannot call an election. Mind-blowing.

hatrickpatrick

If I was asked to fire on a group of my unarmed fellow Irishman, to shut them up, I'd refuse to do it. In my view, anyone who would is an awful human being.

Furthermore, the instant a regime begins killing protesters, all other issues become irrelevant - that regime has to go. End of story.

Holsten

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If I was asked to fire on a group of my unarmed fellow Irishman, to shut them up, I'd refuse to do it. In my view, anyone who would is an awful human being.

Furthermore, the instant a regime begins killing protesters, all other issues become irrelevant - that regime has to go. End of story.

Exactly, they all have their own brains, they should use them.

Following orders is an excuse, an extreme example but the Nazi's were following orders too.

If I was told to fire on unarmed people who are fighting for a just cause I'd drop my gun and walk away.