Are we a nation of hypocrites?

jank

Have raised this topic on the Australia forum but want to get the general opinion of the AH crew.

There is a case at the moment in Australia where a young man from Cork is being detained and in the process of being deported back to Ireland for over staying his visa. The Irish Echo, an Irish-Australian publication has taken up the cause with a front page spread asking for public support for the cause. He says he does not want to be spilt up from his family. He is with an Australian partner and has a child with her. It is a plea to the emotions where it can be summed up that the child needs a father and in fact has a right to a father.

http://www.irishecho.com.au/2014/02/20/new-irish-echo-print-edition-out-today/30730

https://www.facebook.com/Irishechoaustralia

So far so good. However on closer reading of the actual case this young man was convicted for assault back in 2004 and was sentenced to 4 years in jail. The assault took place in 2002 and left a young Limerick man permanently and severely brain damaged whole will have to spend the rest of his life in a nursing home.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pair-jailed-for-cowardly-attack-that-left-gifted-student-with-brain-damage-25913057.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/proud-smiles-hide-family-tragedy-at-sons-graduation-241240.html

OK, that complicates things a bit. It is unclear wether this man lied on his initial visa application for a WHV. If one has a substantial criminal conviction then a visa is usually denied. How was he there in the first place?

He says he has learned from his past but even in the past number of years he has appeared in court for being over the limit and driving an unlicensed car. Seems the law and rules don't really apply to him

The thing though is that the amount of support on Facebook at least that his cause seems to get, never mind the fact the largest Irish publication in the southern hemisphere deems it right to show their support for this while on one hand denounce violence on Australian streets as they have done previously.

The key question so is this. Are we a nation of hypocrypts? If this was a Polish guy in Ireland would the Irish Indo run a similar story for a plea of clemency? Would the same people who are supporting this mans cause support the Polish or Latvian guy? The guy is from Cork, one of our own so we give him a free pass because 'sure god love him and his kid'? Yet the same people would be frothing at the mouth if they found out a foreign guy moved in next to them that was convicted of a crime elsewhere. Are people really that stupid?! Does the fact that the guy is Irish mean that we always back them no matter what the facts are?

clairefontaine

Why doesn't he have a spousal visa if he is with an Australian?

Children do not have rights to fathers. That is an utterly ridiculous claim and the Irish in Australia are making boobs of themselves if this is the path they are taking.

He has gotten himself and his child into a situation now where he will be deported and the best he can hope for is a trans-continental custody order.

F****** moron.

Sir Arthur Daley

Australia is a big reality check from rural Ireland.

biko

Toss the fecker out.
Australia for Australians!

Tilly

They're supporting his fight to stay cause they don't want the thug back here

crockholm

If he doesn't have the proper paperwork,send him back.He can re-apply back in Ireland,we should not be supporting his illegal stance.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

I thought having a criminal conviction was requirement for emigrating to Australia, or have they dropped that now?:D

Seriously, they should deport as soon as possible.

Femme_Fatale

It's just people being dopes on Facebook in relation to "one of their own". It is not an exclusively Irish thing.

I remember the case of that poor young fella from Limerick. Awfully sad case.

osarusan

Never heard of the guy until this thread, or seen any support of any kind for him on facebook or elsewhere.

Maybe he just wants to get Australia to pay for his ticket home.

The Backwards Man

If every nation's government policies were judged on Facebook campaigns the world would be a very scary place.

The Diabolical Monocle

No, it doesn't infer that the rest of us are hypocrites when it comes to immigration. It doesn't say anything about an entire population.

Yes he should be granted permanent residence, the child has a right to a father. Child has done nothing wrong. Rightly or wrongly, if you knock a girl up in a country you have business with the other partner and the coming child and should be allowed to stay. Unfortunately women have a penchant for scumbag.

He is indeed a scumbag. If he has jail time waiting for him, ship him back here to serve it before returning.

Also papers that preach to their own choir, for all different groups, are trash that should have to be marked as 'may contain propaganda and self serving whinging'. I'd guess the mentioned paper is one of these.

Saggyjocks

I would imagine a lot of the people that are signing this petition and showing support for him that don't know him personally are not aware of his criminal past. They must only see a man being taken away from his family and the lives of him and his child being torn apart. These people who are taking his story at face value i wouldnt call them hypocrites they just dont know the whole story, ignorance is bliss

He should not have been allowed enter the country in the first place. it's disgusting that hes asking for the support of people through the media and making his plea so publicly

gugleguy

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If every nation's government policies were judged on Facebook campaigns the world would be a very scary place.

I'm not on Facebook. Am I deficient here? NO NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST.

jank

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Yes he should be granted permanent residence,

Really? He entered the country illegally it seems by falsifying official immigration papers.

osarusan

From that facebook page:

other poster: Lot of Irish think they have any right to stay here no matter what! Well there are fcuking laws mate! But I can see the next "like this page if u want him stay in oz"

the poor craytur/scumbag in question: Ya and australia immigration r breaching UN laws and human right laws to u muppet. U just wish u were irish. we prob built ur country as well as this country and half the world at that

jank

Saggyjocks wrote: »

He should not have been allowed enter the country in the first place. it's disgusting that hes asking for the support of people through the media and making his plea so publicly

I wonder why the Irish echo carried the plea in the first place. It is a bit of a rag, maybe they were paid. Would not surprise me.

The Diabolical Monocle

jank wrote: »

Really? He entered the country illegally it seems by falsifying official immigration papers.

And if the mother dies or cant support herself.
Rent-a-dad ??

Meangadh

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Unfortunately women have a penchant for scumbag.

?

Femme_Fatale

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

No, it doesn't infer that the rest of us are hypocrites when it comes to immigration. It doesn't say anything about an entire population.

Yes he should be granted permanent residence, the child has a right to a father. Child has done nothing wrong. Rightly or wrongly, if you knock a girl up in a country you have business with the other partner and the coming child and should be allowed to stay.

Fully agreed.

Unfortunately women have a penchant for scumbag.

This story does not infer anything about an entire population, but this case means you can say women have a penchant for a scumbag. Love it.
Silly, insecure women go for sh1tty guys, or get fooled by them; silly, insecure men go for sh1tty girls, or get fooled by them.

Also papers that preach to their own choir, for all different groups, are trash that should have to be marked as 'may contain propaganda and self serving whinging'. I'd guess the mentioned paper is one of these.

Agreed.

jank

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

And if the mother dies or cant support herself.
Rent-a-dad ??

Well perhaps the Dad of her other kid could step in. I think the point is lost that he should not have been even there in the first place. They could of course try and set up a life in the EU. Actions, consequences and all that.

Sir Arthur Daley

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe he just wants to get Australia to pay for his ticket home.

A Ryanair flight cant be that expensive can it?

The Diabolical Monocle

jank wrote: »

Well perhaps the Dad of her other kid could step in. I think the point is lost that he should not have been even there in the first place. They could of course try and set up a life in the EU. Actions, consequences and all that.

Heres a spare dad, we didn't have the first model but this one should be fine.

And what of a case where theres no spare dad.
Yes he shouldn't have been there. Hows that going to help the child and mother.

Action - remove father from country.
Consequence - child has no contact with one of his parents, mother dependent on third party who may not be too eager to raise a kid thats not his own.

shruikan2553

He cant be that concerned about his child having a father around if he would risk being deported by breaking the law.

crockholm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Heres a spare dad, we didn't have the first model but this one should be fine.

And what of a case where theres no spare dad.
Yes he shouldn't have been there. Hows that going to help the child and mother.

Action - remove father from country.
Consequence - child has no contact with one of his parents, mother dependent on third party who may not be too eager to raise a kid thats not his own.

Solution-knock up some bogan,get to remain in the country. A win -win for scumbags.

jimmurt

osarusan wrote: »

From that facebook page:

other poster: Lot of Irish think they have any right to stay here no matter what! Well there are fcuking laws mate! But I can see the next "like this page if u want him stay in oz"

the poor craytur/scumbag in question: Ya and australia immigration r breaching UN laws and human right laws to u muppet. U just wish u were irish. we prob built ur country as well as this country and half the world at that

That's embarassing

jank

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Heres a spare dad, we didn't have the first model but this one should be fine.

And what of a case where theres no spare dad.
Yes he shouldn't have been there. Hows that going to help the child and mother.

Action - remove father from country.
Consequence - child has no contact with one of his parents, mother dependent on third party who may not be too eager to raise a kid thats not his own.

They aren't even married and the guy was up for common assault in a court against the mother already… a great dad to have around you think?

This whole 'breaking up families' is a ploy. Ireland had to pass a referendum to stop a similar loop hole being exploited. The law there for a reason. He forged documents to get into a country, shacks up with someone, has a kid and then its all OK so? Sorry but that is not how it works.

The rules state that if you over stay a visa then you are bared from Australia for 3 years anyway. As you said yourself this should happen. He can then of course apply for a legal visa from Ireland in three years time. Nothing legally stopping them from being a family in Ireland from what I gather only that it is not convienient.

jank

shruikan2553 wrote: »

He cant be that concerned about his child having a father around if he would risk being deported by breaking the law.

But that would take foresight and one to take responsibility for their actions in totality, something totally missing here. It is always someone else fault aint it.

clairefontaine

jank wrote: »

But that would take foresight and one to take responsibility for their actions in totality, something totally missing here. It is always someone else fault aint it.

I think that Irish go abroad and think they carry Irish flexi law with them and then get a very cold shower when they are abroad.

The Diabolical Monocle

crockholm wrote: »

Solution-knock up some bogan,get to remain in the country. A win -win for scumbags.

Deprive kids of fathers Vs Allow citizenship for anyone who can reproduce on schedule.

Thats the crux of the issue.

But are you going to be the one to tell a kid he won't be seeing his dad again.

MS.ing

australia is no place for convicts.

oh wait.

Eutow

He should be deported back to Ireland. He broke the law by not only over staying his visa, but by declaring false information on his original visa application. Tough sh*t.

jank

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Deprive kids of fathers Vs Allow citizenship for anyone who can reproduce on schedule.

Thats the crux of the issue.

But are you going to be the one to tell a kid he won't be seeing his dad again.

Here is the logic of your argument.

Man has a family, he has a kid. The guy goes out one night gets in serious trouble with the law which results in a court appearance and a jail sentence. The plea is basically that a child has a right to a father so the judge should not jail him at all as by jailing him the the judge is depriving a child of his father.

That is the logic of the argument and it does not stand up at all and in fact would be laughed out of court.

The Diabolical Monocle

jank wrote: »

This whole 'breaking up families' is a ploy.

Yes, it is. Its a pre-meditated ploy designed to produce a citizen who can't be denied its birth parents.
Its used by people who want to game the system and go live in another country.

And it has worked and does work.

Because the new kid is as much a citizen as you.
And to deny one citizen child of his/her parents sets a precedent.

What of the case where its a foreign woman arriving and getting knocked up and giving birth, should she be separated from her child and sent home ??

Eutow

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Yes, it is. Its a pre-meditated ploy designed to produce a citizen who can't be denied its birth parents.
Its used by people who want to game the system and go live in another country.

And it has worked and does work.

Because the new kid is as much a citizen as you.
And to deny one citizen child of his/her parents sets a precedent.

What of the case where its a foreign woman arriving and getting knocked up and giving birth, should she be separated from her child and sent home ??

She would return home with the child.

clairefontaine

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Yes, it is. Its a pre-meditated ploy designed to produce a citizen who can't be denied its birth parents.
Its used by people who want to game the system and go live in another country.

And it has worked and does work.

Because the new kid is as much a citizen as you.
And to deny one citizen child of his/her parents sets a precedent.

What of the case where its a foreign woman arriving and getting knocked up and giving birth, should she be separated from her child and sent home ??

The anchor baby ploy no longer works. As children have been manipulated by their parents in order to remain in countries, which is very likely what has happened here in this case too.

Children have no rights to their parents, ask any single mom who raises a child on her own or any child who has a parent in prison.

There are plenty of anchor kids in the US whose parents have been deported. If they allow it then it will continue on in numbers. If the family want to stay together then they can bring the child with them back home. This guy is not married to this woman, has committed fraud on his applications, and has a violent criminal history. Tell what credibility is there?

minidazzler

I'd be nice if he got hit by a car on the way to the airport so he can't cause any more damage once he gets here Alas, that won't be the case.

He should absolutely be turfed out. This Irish having a special immigrant status according to ourselves is just bull. We expect everyone to be delighted that we'll grace them with our presence.

crockholm

jank wrote: »

Here is the logic of your argument.

Man has a family, he has a kid. The guy goes out one night gets in serious trouble with the law which results in a court appearance and a jail sentence. The plea is basically that a child has a right to a father so the judge should not jail him at all as by jailing him the the judge is depriving a child of his father.

That is the logic of the argument and it does not stand up at all and in fact would be laughed out of court.

Would be humourous but for the fact that it is the de facto response by the defending solicitor whenever a female defendant is within an ass' roar of a custodial sentence

crockholm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Deprive kids of fathers Vs Allow citizenship for anyone who can reproduce on schedule.

Thats the crux of the issue.

But are you going to be the one to tell a kid he won't be seeing his dad again.

Just get him out of Australia first,he can always apply for residence in Oz on compassionate grounds once he gets to Ireland.

The Diabolical Monocle

jank wrote: »

Here is the logic of your argument.

Man has a family, he has a kid. The guy goes out one night gets in serious trouble with the law which results in a court appearance and a jail sentence. The plea is basically that a child has a right to a father so the judge should not jail him at all as by jailing him the the judge is depriving a child of his father.

That is the logic of the argument and it does not stand up at all and in fact would be laughed out of court.

Indeed it would be laughed out of court, since you'd be requesting something entirely different altogether.

You'd be requesting that criminal convictions be quashed because someone has a child.
That is not analogous to someone in an immigration case using a child as a pawn for citizenship.

Just because two cases have one common factor (absence of a father in this case) doesn't make them the same.

The Diabolical Monocle

clairefontaine wrote: »

The anchor baby ploy no longer works.

Really ?? ..... could have fooled me. Take a taxi next time you're in Dublin.

Arthur Beesley

This scumbag should be sent back to Ireland. Unfortunately we have to take him back. Pity.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Really ?? ..... could have fooled me. Take a taxi next time you're in Dublin.

Showing you true colours now chum!

The Diabolical Monocle

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Showing you true colours now chum!

Yes those of a reasoned person.




Now if you'll excuse me Ive a Klan meeting to attend.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Ive a Klan meeting to attend.

Wouldn't surprise me.:rolleyes:

The Diabolical Monocle

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Wouldn't surprise me.:rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXDo4dL7SU

Steppenwolfe

We need another facebook page. To petition for him to be denied entry when he comes back. Sounds like a right scumbag. Sadly he's one of our own and it won't work.

crockholm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Yes those of a reasoned person.




Now if you'll excuse me Ive a Klan meeting to attend.

It's been postponed till next tuesday because the Grand Wizards mom is feeling sick,I was supposed to send out the reminders about that on friday,but,like my pointy hat,it Went over my head.

White Powder.

jank

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Indeed it would be laughed out of court, since you'd be requesting something entirely different altogether.

You'd be requesting that criminal convictions be quashed because someone has a child.
That is not analogous to someone in an immigration case using a child as a pawn for citizenship.

Just because two cases have one common factor (absence of a father in this case) doesn't make them the same.

Yet, the main point of argument of the reason he is in detention is because he over stayed his visa and that is illegal. The usual punishment is a flight home, a bill for the flight and a three year ban form Australia. You said initially that he should be granted PR after he served whatever time is due to him. So in essence we are both in agreement so that he should be kicked out where he can reapply in 3 years time for PR.

And do we have to even mention his initial visa application was fraudulent, which was also illegal? The guy is trouble no matter what way one spins it.

Paramite Pie

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

But are you going to be the one to tell a kid he won't be seeing his dad again.

Lot's of kids have dads who live over seas, usually working. It's a four year sentence, not an entire lifetime. Small price to pay for destroying someone's life. It's not the kids choice.

Let's worry about the original victim here and his family, who I imagine has sustained severe emotional trauma and medical costs due to their son's condition.

Denis Franklin will never have kids. He was robbed of an entire life.

mandrake04

jank wrote: »

Yet, the main point of argument of the reason he is in detention is because he over stayed his visa and that is illegal. The usual punishment is a flight home, a bill for the flight and a three year ban form Australia. You said initially that he should be granted PR after he served whatever time is due to him. So in essence we are both in agreement so that he should be kicked out where he can reapply in 3 years time for PR.

And do we have to even mention his initial visa application was fraudulent, which was also illegal? The guy is trouble no matter what way one spins it.

Overstaying the visa is only a side issue but not the reason why he is in detention (although that is why he was picked up). Overstaying the visa carries a 3 year ban for temporary visas but not permanent visas. I know several lads who overstayed and were granted PR through ENS PR and PR spousal visas when children was involved.

The minister intervened because the 'applicant' failed the Character Test which is that those with a criminal record must have have served less than 12 months imprisonment to be considered for migration.... the applicant had a 2 year suspended sentence for the 1st assault and 4 years custodial sentence for the drunken assault 5 months later which left a man in a vegetive state to this day.

There's no way the minister could allow this guy to stay, you know the whole hoo haa over alcohol violence as of late. Imagine the uproar if this guy injured someone and immigration had granted him a visa.

The MRT ruled that with the kid that he could stay, there's a lot of talk of judges and barristers. An MRT is not like a real court with a real judge it is a tribunal that looks at the decision of granting of a visa.

If he had failed the MRT he could have simply appealed it but if he wins the MRT (like he did) it's up to the Minister discretion to overturn it and if it is overturned there's NO appeal. That's the way it played out.

whisky_galore

Ok, so it's a choice between a scummer getting deported and coming back here vs further inflicting him on the Australian people....
Is there any option 3?