Immigration Welfare Tourism

guyjohn

The Irish Welfare System is still too easy and generous in comparison to other EU countries . There is no previous work requirement to access Unemployment Assistance for EU citizens.The child benefit can still be claimed by EU citizens even when the child is not living here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eu-citizens-enjoy-very-generous-welfare-here-247744.html

The Uk wants to introduce a 3 month work requirement to be able to claim Unemployment Assistance. They are more vocal on immigration issues it is something politicians fear in Ireland. The majority of EU countries are more strict on immigration and likely to increase the controls. I hope the Irish government will try to implement similar regulations to control welfare tourism and uncontrolled immigration.The length of time taken to introduce laws in the past are something of a joke.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/460175/Poll-states-70-per-cent-of-Britons-want-ban-on-new-migrants

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2560908/70-say-no-migrants-Survey-reveals-publics-concerns-immigration.html

Think_then_talk

Over the last two years we have been seeing persons who are Irish born but who have lived and worked in the in the EU most of their life renting units from us just for "habitat residence" to claim Welfare they stay up to 12 weeks & then go back to the EU/Uk. One was 70 years of age (I joke not).
Most that we have been seeing are just here to recive the state pension,
We had a lady from the rent allowance unit & even she could not belive it.
As she said her heart went out to the person of that age living out of a suitcase.
But once they recived the state pension they head back & all this is covered by EU Regulations.

guyjohn

I know of 3 cases of EU citizens from Latvia who were working here on permits before 2006 . Then when they joined the EU stopped working claimed welfare and brought their mothers here . The mother's now claim non contributory state pension and can return to their native land with the pension paid directly to their account. When government ministers complain about the cost of welfare you can only laugh.

Jim2007

That the fact that the Ireland & UK experiences welfare tourism tells us one thing - the system is way too generous to everyone on it (remember we are required to treat other EU citizens like our own).

Since the Irish government seems to favour the Swiss style of healthcare system, perhaps they should look at our welfare system as well - we have a very simple rule, if you did not contribute then you get nothing, absolutely nothing regardless of whether you are a citizen or not.

You only get to qualify for social assistance when you have consumed all your assets and are destitute - that means that you have sold off your car, your TV, aunty Jane's armchair, your house and anything else that is of value. At this point the local community will put you into social housing, pay your health insurance and a living allowance. In exchange for this, you will be required to do whatever work the community needs doing - up at 4:00am to shovel snow in winter, out after storms to clear the roads, unblock gullies, dig the latrines for social gatherings and so on.

Sound like a plan???

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

The Irish Welfare System is still too easy and generous in comparison to other EU countries . There is no previous work requirement to access Unemployment Assistance for EU citizens.The child benefit can still be claimed by EU citizens even when the child is not living here.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eu-citizens-enjoy-very-generous-welfare-here-247744.html

The Uk wants to introduce a 3 month work requirement to be able to claim Unemployment Assistance. They are more vocal on immigration issues it is something politicians fear in Ireland. The majority of EU countries are more strict on immigration and likely to increase the controls. I hope the Irish government will try to implement similar regulations to control welfare tourism and uncontrolled immigration.The length of time taken to introduce laws in the past are something of a joke.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/460175/Poll-states-70-per-cent-of-Britons-want-ban-on-new-migrants

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2560908/70-say-no-migrants-Survey-reveals-publics-concerns-immigration.html

We are all ready far stricter than the UK wants to be, for most forms of SW a person has to be habitually resident, which in most cases means being resident for 2 years or more.

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

I know of 3 cases of EU citizens from Latvia who were working here on permits before 2006 . Then when they joined the EU stopped working claimed welfare and brought their mothers here . The mother's now claim non contributory state pension and can return to their native land with the pension paid directly to their account. When government ministers complain about the cost of welfare you can only laugh.

If what you say is true then I would if I was you contact SW as that is a fraud.

Pro Hoc Vice

Jim2007 wrote: »

That the fact that the Ireland & UK experiences welfare tourism tells us one thing - the system is way too generous to everyone on it (remember we are required to treat other EU citizens like our own).

Since the Irish government seems to favour the Swiss style of healthcare system, perhaps they should look at our welfare system as well - we have a very simple rule, if you did not contribute then you get nothing, absolutely nothing regardless of whether you are a citizen or not.

You only get to qualify for social assistance when you have consumed all your assets and are destitute - that means that you have sold off your car, your TV, aunty Jane's armchair, your house and anything else that is of value. At this point the local community will put you into social housing, pay your health insurance and a living allowance. In exchange for this, you will be required to do whatever work the community needs doing - up at 4:00am to shovel snow in winter, out after storms to clear the roads, unblock gullies, dig the latrines for social gatherings and so on.

Sound like a plan???

A person who has contributed nothing in ireland must satisfy a strict means test and even non performing assets are given a notional weekly income which means people with no cash but say a building will have to sell it then use cash before they get any SW. Do it sounds just like the Swiss model to me.

Also any person entering Ireland citizen or otherwise must satisfy the habitual residents test, usually means living here for at least 2 years. I have no problem with anyone who has worked for two years being able to claim welfare.

guyjohn

A person can easily get around the Habitual Residence test .They stay with friends or family and can return to their home country as its not checked. The social welfare have no access to bank accounts in Ireland unless they can prove you have funds not declared. A senior revenue official needs to sign any authorization for bank accounts . Bank accounts in the home country are not checked hope fully this will change with the European Savings Directive if properly implemented.

mdebets

Just in case that someone is interested in real figures, rather than imaginary statements about Ireland having the highest social welfare, read the following. here

paul71

guyjohn wrote: »

A person can easily get around the Habitual Residence test .They stay with friends or family and can return to their home country as its not checked. The social welfare have no access to bank accounts in Ireland unless they can prove you have funds not declared. A senior revenue official needs to sign any authorization for bank accounts . Bank accounts in the home country are not checked hope fully this will change with the European Savings Directive if properly implemented.

Completely untrue, the tests for habitual residence are onerous and stringent.

1. Addresses are often checked with home visits by welfare inspectors.
2. What have bank accounts got to do with residency.

If you have evidence to the contrary please provide us with a link. If your evidence is ancedotal then report the fraud to the department.

guyjohn

paul71 wrote: »

Completely untrue, the tests for habitual residence are onerous and stringent.

1. Addresses are often checked with home visits by welfare inspectors.
2. What have bank accounts got to do with residency.

If you have evidence to the contrary please provide us with a link. If your evidence is ancedotal then report the fraud to the department.

Do you have first hand experience or work in welfare ? Bank Accounts are used to check if have means before Job Seeker allowance in paid.
Then why are welfare inspectors are checking flights to Poland etc and catching those claiming and not living here . .

guyjohn

mdebets wrote: »

Just in case that someone is interested in real figures, rather than imaginary statements about Ireland having the highest social welfare, read the following. here

The link shows an Unemployment Benefit table and in comparison to wages Ireland is low.
The table however for Unemployment Assistance which I speak of shows that the payment is renewable after 6 months in some countries. There is no limit in Ireland .

Job Seeker allowance for a single person UK £70 and you have to go to the Job Centre and prove you are looking for work every 2 weeks.

https://www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance/what-youll-get

The UK is our nearest neighbour many immigrants come from the UK.

Job Seeker Allowance rate Ireland single person Euro 188.00

Nodin

guyjohn wrote: »

The link shows an Unemployment Benefit table and in comparison to wages Ireland is low.
The table however for Unemployment Assistance which I speak of shows that the payment is renewable after 6 months in some countries. There is no limit in Ireland .

Job Seeker allowance for a single person UK £70 and you have to go to the Job Centre and prove you are looking for work every 2 weeks.

https://www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance/what-youll-get

The UK is our nearest neighbour many immigrants come from the UK.

Job Seeker Allowance rate Ireland single person Euro 188.00

Simplistic comparsions reveal nothing.

You cannot arrive here and claim. You also need at least 18 months prior employment and to satisfy a residency condition. It's been that way for many years now.

guyjohn

Do you have a link that says you need 18 months prior employment. You appear have wide experience in this
area so do please enlighten .

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eu-citizens-enjoy-very-generous-welfare-here-247744.html#

Nodin

guyjohn wrote: »

Do you have a link that says you need 18 months prior employment. You appear have wide experience in this
area so do please enlighten .

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eu-citizens-enjoy-very-generous-welfare-here-247744.html#

Here are links to information on both types payments, where the requirements are laid out under "Rules".

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_allowance.html

paul71

guyjohn wrote: »

Then why are welfare inspectors are checking flights to Poland etc and catching those claiming and not living here . .

Because they are doing their job (contrary to your claim) and actually inspecting, and/or validating habitual residence claims. Incidently since you cannot or will not back your claim that habitual residence is easy to claim with verifiable data that leaves me free to relate my first hand anecdotal evidence.

I was born in Ireland, am an Irish citizen, went to primary school, secondary, and university here, am a fluent Irish speaker, lived/worked here continuously until I was in my early 30s, I then went to Czech Republic for 3.5 years married a czech girl came back and we had a kid here 18 months after our return.

I was denied childrens allowance because I fail the habitual residence test. So I don't buy into a claim by someone who has 4 posts on boards, (one of them a banned thread in After hours) and refuses to back those claims up with hard facts, that Ireland has a welfare tourism issue.

guyjohn

I still see no requirement to have worked 18 months before you get JSA in the links ?

UK and EU nationals from the Common Travel Area are exempt for the Habitual Condition.A reason for immigrants to come here if the rules get strict there.

The requirement to work 3 months if implemented in the UK applies to Ireland for Job Seeker Allowance then we must do the same.The child benefit rule that the child does not have to live in Ireland continues without amendment.

The payments listed below are open to abuse.

Exemption from the habitual residence condition for EEA nationals
Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

Family Benefits and
Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Child Benefit,
One-Parent Family Payment,
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory),
and
Domiciliary Care Allowance.

paul71

guyjohn wrote: »

I still see no requirement to have worked 18 months before you get JSA in the links ?

UK and EU nationals from the Common Travel Area are exempt for the Habitual Condition.A reason for immigrants to come here if the rules get strict there.

The requirement to work 3 months if implemented in the UK applies to Ireland for Job Seeker Allowance then we must do the same.The child benefit rule that the child does not have to live in Ireland continues without amendment.

The payments listed below are open to abuse.

Exemption from the habitual residence condition for EEA nationals
Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

Family Benefits and
Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Child Benefit,
One-Parent Family Payment,
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory),
and
Domiciliary Care Allowance.

Absolute utter drivel. All of those payments are subject to habitual residence tests. Show me a link on Department of Social welfare site saying EEA nationals do not have to satisfy habitual residence in any circumstance because I can tell you that Irish citizens must satisfy that test.

You have been asked several times to back up your claims and all you have done is link to a cork examiner article (not evidence as it opinion). When you asked for links from other people Nodin provided them.

Your claims are all conjecture and opinion and no facts or figures.

Nodin

guyjohn wrote: »

I still see no requirement to have worked 18 months before you get JSA in the links ?

..................

EU nationals are not exempt from habitual residence.

To get Jobseeker's Allowance you must:

• Be unemployed (you must be fully unemployed or unemployed for at least 4 days out of 7)
• Be over 18 and under 66 years of age
• Be capable of work
• Be available for and genuinely seeking work
• Satisfy the means test
• Meet the Habitual Residence Condition

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_allowance.html
Its under "Rules" as previously stated.

guyjohn

I do not see the reason for such accusations . The links are from Government websites, newspapers and Citizen Information . I think if you do not work in Welfare or Immigration any comment you make is hollow .
I was not banned form After Hours the thread was closed because it was in the wrong forum.

The link showing exemption from Habitual Residence is look under Rules , Habitual Residence Condition. The text in the post is from the web page.
Exemption from the habitual residence condition for EEA nationals
Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

Family Benefits and
Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Child Benefit,
One-Parent Family Payment,
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory),
and
Domiciliary Care Allowance.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html

Read before you rant. You are NOT an EEA national the reason why you are not exempt.

The issue of Immigration controlling it and welfare tourism is a hot topic in the UK. Ireland needs to continue to update or it could end up as a dumping ground .

I have since 2001 have experienced many abuses of the system .My ex was an Asylum Seeker so for 8 years I was involved .
I have listened to many stories first hand about such abuse.

Nodin

guyjohn wrote: »

Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

Family Benefits and
Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Child Benefit,
One-Parent Family Payment,
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory),
and
Domiciliary Care Allowance.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html

Read before you rant. You are NOT an EEA national the reason why you are not exempt.

.

In exceptional cases. Even on their own merits none of those payments are easily gained, nor do they constitute sufficient monies to make do on.

Nodin

guyjohn wrote: »

......................
I have since 2001 have experienced many abuses of the system .My ex was an Asylum Seeker so for 8 years I was involved .
I have listened to many stories first hand about such abuse.

Asylum seekers have no access to the social welfare payments thus far discussed, so I fail to see what relevance such anecdotes have.

guyjohn

Whatever there are still loopholes in the system being exploited.

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

Whatever there are still loopholes in the system being exploited.

Hold the front pages huge multi billion euro system has loopholes and is being exploited. If anyone one is aware of any person defrauding SW then they can inform the relevant person.

Nodin

guyjohn wrote: »

Whatever there are still loopholes in the system being exploited.

Vague speculation, alas far too akin to the kind of rabble rousing witnessed in our neighbours press recently.

gallag

Up here in Belfast roma gypsie type's are becoming "self employed" big issue retailers and can straight away claim working tax credits, child welfare payments (children don't need to live in the UK) housing benefit etc. Joke of a system that needs reform.

RDM_83 again

paul71 wrote: »

Completely untrue, the tests for habitual residence are onerous and stringent.

1. Addresses are often checked with home visits by welfare inspectors.
2. What have bank accounts got to do with residency.

If you have evidence to the contrary please provide us with a link. If your evidence is ancedotal then report the fraud to the department.

I've a decent bit of experience with welfare unfortunately and I have to say in my experience the stringency of testing and inspections varies considerably on which office it is, with a bit of forward planning I would be fairly confident it would be possible to defraud one of the busier dublin offices.
I am not sure that welfare tourism in relation to JSA at least would be a big enough draw without a undeclared job on the side personally and hopefully the new ID style cards prevent some of the more blatent abuses

househero

guyjohn wrote: »

Whatever there are still loopholes in the system being exploited.

No there are not, and your opinion is bordering on outright racism.

Its funny when closet racists sign up to a 'NEW' boards account to voice their bigoted opinions.

K-9

househero wrote: »

No there are not, and your opinion is bordering on outright racism.

Its funny when closet racists sign up to a 'NEW' boards account to voice their bigoted opinions.

Mod:

Having concerns about immigration or welfare isn't bordering on outright racism, people are entitled to raise issues without suggestions they are racist.

Also leave guesses at "NEW" users to the mods and admins please. It's not very welcoming for a new user to boards, we've all been there at some stage

Nodin

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I've a decent bit of experience with welfare unfortunately............

As a foreign national living in Ireland....?

RDM_83 again

Nodin wrote: »

As a foreign national living in Ireland....?

Northerner Nodin and not to have persecution complex but classically Northerners claiming in the south did used to be the most common people defrauding pulling the "double" (claiming in both areas).
And anyway my point is that there is a very variable level of inspection depending on the office you are in at least in my experience and I don't think that is just myself specifically as I am sure a Dublin office may handle a much larger population thats also transitional.

djpbarry

guyjohn wrote: »

The link showing exemption from Habitual Residence is look under Rules , Habitual Residence Condition. The text in the post is from the web page.
Exemption from the habitual residence condition for EEA nationals
Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

Family Benefits and
Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Child Benefit,
One-Parent Family Payment,
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory),
and
Domiciliary Care Allowance.

And if we continue to read on the same web page…

This means that they are payable to a person who qualifies for EU migrant worker status for dependants who are resident in Ireland or in another EEA state. However, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals who move to Ireland to look for employment are subject to the habitual residence condition in the normal way while looking for work.

In other words, if you’re an EU migrant in Ireland, you can claim child benefit (for example) for your kids, even if your kids don’t satisfy the habitual residency test, which doesn’t strike me as unreasonable.

guyjohn

djpbarry wrote: »

And if we continue to read on the same web page…
In other words, if you’re an EU migrant in Ireland, you can claim child benefit (for example) for your kids, even if your kids don’t satisfy the habitual residency test, which doesn’t strike me as unreasonable.

An Irish citizen must pass the Habitual residence test for the child benefit unlike an EU citizen.


The link below refers to welfare tourism from the UK surprisingly hard hitting for the Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/risible-lies-about-immigrants-no-substitute-for-honest-debate-26469455.html

Nodin

guyjohn wrote: »

An Irish citizen must pass the Habitual residence test for the child benefit unlike an EU citizen.


The link below refers to welfare tourism from the UK surprisingly hard hitting for the Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/risible-lies-about-immigrants-no-substitute-for-honest-debate-26469455.html

That's a rant by Kevin Myers.

Do please provide proof that an Irish person must pass the habitual residency test for child benefit and an EU citizen does not.

Pro Hoc Vice

Nodin wrote: »

That's a rant by Kevin Myers.

Do please provide proof that an Irish person must pass the habitual residency test for child benefit and an EU citizen does not.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/sw108.pdf

Ireland can set any conditions it wants in relation to returning irish citizens (as long as not returning from within EU). But any conditions must take into consideration EU law when persons are exercising EU treaty rights which has an exception relating to family payments.

BTW the condition may be worth a challange in Europe if it severely interferes with a Irish citizen child enjoying his right to enjoy his right to reside within the eu.

guyjohn

Nodin wrote: »

That's a rant by Kevin Myers.

Do please provide proof that an Irish person must pass the habitual residency test for child benefit and an EU citizen does not.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Child-Benefit.aspx#hreea

See the text extract from the link below.


HABITUAL RESIDENCE

EEA WORKERS

Child Benefit is classified under EU law as a Family Benefit. Applicants whose entitlement to Child Benefit derive from the application of the provisions of EEC Regulation 883/04 do not have to satisfy the condition as European legislation takes precedence over Irish legislation. In effect the EU rules contained in Articles 11to 15 of Regulation 883/04 governing the payment of family benefit to migrant workers from EEA Member States override the habitual residence requirements under the Social Welfare Acts.

These rules apply to employed or self employed EEA nationals, who have become subject to Irish PRSI since coming to Ireland, and their entitlement continues if they become unemployed and receive Irish Unemployment Benefit.


From correspondence with Immigrant Council of Ireland.
An EEA national working here with a proven defacto relationship or spouse and children EU or Non EU has the right under the Freedom of Movement to bring them here. The Irish citizen does not have this right it is at the discretion of the Minister and not easy to get.

View

Hmmm, interesting and all as this is, it would appear to be slightly off topic.

A Migrant Worker isn't engaging in welfare tourism since they are by definition a Worker.

Why is it a problem that Migrant Workers are entitled to the benefits we voluntarily agreed they would be entitled to claim?

guyjohn

View wrote: »

Hmmm, interesting and all as this is, it would appear to be slightly off topic.

A Migrant Worker isn't engaging in welfare tourism since they are by definition a Worker.

Why is it a problem that Migrant Workers are entitled to the benefits we voluntarily agreed they would be entitled to claim?

Agreed this is off topic .I was just replying to a poster who wanted proof in relation to child benefit. The topic was also covered in an earlier post some just require repetition .