Is 183 days at school, full or half days?

lemonchocolate

Just wondering regarding the requirement of schools to open for 183 days at Primary and 167 days at Secondary. Can they be a mix of full and half days, and how many half days are allowed? It is just schools all have different arrangements here.

byhookorbycrook

Can't speak for secondary. Primary is 183 and half days at Christmas, Easter and summer are the usual.

lemonchocolate

OK, so it is 180 full days and 3 half days at primary. One of my children had a half day at halloween, and the friday before mid-term breaks also. So he had 6 half days per year.

byhookorbycrook

No, 183 days, but half days are allowed where they were traditionally taken. Perhaps the teachers were doing half in/half out staff meetings- allowed once a term, I think?

muckisluck

According to the circular issued by DES today any day less than a full day can't be counted towards the 167 or 183 days. to me that says half days are over and above the requirement.

lemonchocolate

Is this circular new?
Would these half in half out meetings generally occur on the Friday before Halloween holidays and mid-term breaks? I have a daughter in another school and they only get a half day at Christmas and summer, it causes great friction in the house.

muckisluck

Just came out today. i'd guess it's yet another circular that will be interpreted at a local level though!!

lemonchocolate

Not sure what you mean muckisluck, but thanks for your information on the circular.

byhookorbycrook

The circular is the same , bar the dates as others. Half days are allowable once they were "traditionally" taken. Generally at Christmas, Easter and summer, but can't speak for other areas.

lemonchocolate

I am a little confused, does the latest circular state that the 167 days include for half days at Christmas, Easter and Summer? Maybe someone give me a link to this latest circular

seavill

As a secondary teacher i was under the impression for us all half days were done away with 3 or 4 years ago.
I know it comes up every now and then that we can't take any even at Christmas and Summer, but some schools around do. It upsets our teachers more than the kids but I thought that was now the case

ShamoBuc

I think officially there are no more ' half days' but on a local level 'early finishes' are traditionally acceptable ( end of each 3 terms I think) and do not effect the 183 days. I read it somewhere - though a few years ago admittedly.

ShamoBuc

lemonchocolate wrote: »

I am a little confused, does the latest circular state that the 167 days include for half days at Christmas, Easter and Summer? Maybe someone give me a link to this latest circular

This one?

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/Circulars/Circulars2014/cl0016_2014.pdf

DDC1990

I think Officially half days do not count, but NEARLY every Principal in the country keeps the traditional half days, and turns a blind eye. This will continue until there is an official "cease and desist" letter sent out to schools.

This isn't a new thing according to a school Principal I was talking to, been around for a few years, but as mentioned practice hasn't changed.

EDIT: ShamoBuc has said as much.

EDIT 2: Pedant-proof

seavill

DDC1990 wrote: »

I think Officially half days do not count, but every Principal in the country keeps the traditional half days, and turns a blind eye. This will continue until there is an official "cease and desist" letter sent out to schools.

This isn't a new thing according to a school Principal I was talking to, been around for a few years, but as mentioned practice hasn't changed.

EDIT: ShamoBuc has said as much.

Not true. We lost all half days 3 years ago

byhookorbycrook

Not in our area!

seavill

I'm not saying some principal's don't still give half days the previous poster said "every principal in the country" still gave half days which is not true in my school and some others locally

DDC1990

seavill wrote: »

I'm not saying some principal's don't still give half days the previous poster said "every principal in the country" still gave half days which is not true in my school and some others locally

Ah come on, practically every principal overlooks it.

I'll edit my post for the pedants out there.

You are the first person i've heard out of over 200 teachers that doesn't get half days.

seavill

DDC1990 wrote: »

Ah come on, practically every principal overlooks it.

I'll edit my post for the pedants out there.

You are the first person i've heard out of over 200 teachers that doesn't get half days.

You can think im making it up if you want makes no difference to me. We have had 2 principals in the last 3 years and both have completely stopped half days.

Out of the 4 closest schools to me 2 still give half days 2 have completely stopped them also.
Even at summer holidays. She accepts there will be about 20 people left in the building btu still insists on it.

Belive what you want I'm just stating facts from my side

GarIT

A school can have as many half days as long as they have 183 (primary) or 167 (secondary) full days. Half days can't be counted in any way towards full days. Principals allowing half days to be counted are jut bad at their job, purposefully ignoring what they have been told and should be sacked for refusing to comply.

seavill

In reality schools(principals) don't plan the calender to have 185 days to include 2 half days they have 183 days with 2 half days.

Theres no point in saying any different happens becauase it doesn't.

I;m not saying its right im just saying the reality of what happens

DDC1990

seavill wrote: »

You can think im making it up if you want makes no difference to me. We have had 2 principals in the last 3 years and both have completely stopped half days.

Out of the 4 closest schools to me 2 still give half days 2 have completely stopped them also.
Even at summer holidays. She accepts there will be about 20 people left in the building btu still insists on it.

Belive what you want I'm just stating facts from my side

No I totally believe you, I just felt that you were nit picking a little.

My point in saying I haven't heard any other teachers that don't have the half days, was to point out that it is widespread that half days are still in place.

I wasn't accusing you of making anything up.

seavill

Fair enough so

ShamoBuc

GarIT wrote: »

A school can have as many half days as long as they have 183 (primary) or 167 (secondary) full days. Half days can't be counted in any way towards full days. Principals allowing half days to be counted are jut bad at their job, purposefully ignoring what they have been told and should be sacked for refusing to comply.

I genuinely lol'd

RH149

We haven't had a half day in years.....we finish at 3.20 for Christmas (Carol service in the afternoon but all are obliged to stay until it ends and then clean/tidy the classrooms until 3.20)...same for Halloween, Feb midterm and the Summer. (depends on what exam you are supervising on the last day but officially we have a full day). We don't get Wednesday half days for Sport either.....so new circular won't change things for us as we never get half days anyway.

lemonchocolate

I phoned the department of education, primary schools are obliged to work the full 183 days, they can work half days but must make up the days. (182 full days and two half days, or 181 full days and 4 half days etc). As a parent they recommend that I keep account of the days, and inform the governance department in the department of education is less days are scheduled or worked, as they must be made up.She said something about the days been officially marked in and that they are available for parents under FOI, and that parents should keep their timetables. The person from the department said that unofficial half days at end of term times like Christmas, Easter and Summer are no longer acceptable and will be monitered if not made up. She sounded very official and knowledgeable. I wish she would tell the schools, as they are all different regarding half days, and no half days.

huskerdu

lemonchocolate wrote: »

I phoned the department of education, primary schools are obliged to work the full 183 days, they can work half days but must make up the days. (182 full days and two half days, or 181 full days and 4 half days etc). As a parent they recommend that I keep account of the days, and inform the governance department in the department of education is less days are scheduled or worked, as they must be made up.She said something about the days been officially marked in and that they are available for parents under FOI, and that parents should keep their timetables. The person from the department said that unofficial half days at end of term times like Christmas, Easter and Summer are no longer acceptable and will be monitered if not made up. She sounded very official and knowledgeable. I wish she would tell the schools, as they are all different regarding half days, and no half days.

Interesting. Thanks very much for clarifying this.

THe only way that this will be comprehensively policed, is if parents do it.

I'm off to count the term days in our school calendar.

koriko

lemonchocolate wrote: »

I phoned the department of education, primary schools are obliged to work the full 183 days, they can work half days but must make up the days. (182 full days and two half days, or 181 full days and 4 half days etc). As a parent they recommend that I keep account of the days, and inform the governance department in the department of education is less days are scheduled or worked, as they must be made up.She said something about the days been officially marked in and that they are available for parents under FOI, and that parents should keep their timetables. The person from the department said that unofficial half days at end of term times like Christmas, Easter and Summer are no longer acceptable and will be monitered if not made up. She sounded very official and knowledgeable. I wish she would tell the schools, as they are all different regarding half days, and no half days.

What you are entitled to (under freedom of Info Act), as a parent of a student in any school in the ROI, is a copy of your child's attendance over the duration of the school year. By getting that you can surmise if the days add up to 183. It may be an easier way for you to assess the situation regarding days as there is a different code put in the Aladdin system (which most schools have now for record keeping) for half days as opposed to full days.

muckisluck

koriko wrote: »

What you are entitled to (under freedom of Info Act), as a parent of a student in any school in the ROI, is a copy of your child's attendance over the duration of the school year. By getting that you can surmise if the days add up to 183. It may be an easier way for you to assess the situation regarding days as there is a different code put in the Aladdin system (which most schools have now for record keeping) for half days as opposed to full days.

Freedom of information act doesn't apply to schools.

koriko

muckisluck wrote: »

Freedom of information act doesn't apply to schools.

Oh right. My understanding was it did. Our schools has always disclosed such information through the school office. I just checked the ASTI website there to clarify, under this link- http://www.asti.ie/?id=283 .

Schools refusing such personal information regarding attendance may be in breach? Surely such a basic request from a parent wouldn't even warrant BOM approval but if I'm wrong I stand corrected.

ShamoBuc

koriko wrote: »

Oh right. My understanding was it did. Our schools has always disclosed such information through the school office. I just checked the ASTI website there to clarify, under this link- http://www.asti.ie/?id=283 .

Schools refusing such personal information regarding attendance may be in breach? Surely such a basic request from a parent wouldn't even warrant BOM approval but if I'm wrong I stand corrected.

ASTI are secondary....might be different in primary.

koriko

ShamoBuc wrote: »

ASTI are secondary....might be different in primary.

The only secondary level schools which could be different (although I'm not sure) would be those that are fee- paying. VEC's and Community Comprehensives would have to disclose info if primary would. Information within the school roll book has to be made available to the NEWB, and I'm pretty sure parents are entitled to information regarding attendance also.

Attendance records don't fall under the exemptions set out in the FOI so I think one can obtain them on request. Would love a definate answer either way though

killbillvol2

lemonchocolate wrote: »

I phoned the department of education, primary schools are obliged to work the full 183 days, they can work half days but must make up the days. (182 full days and two half days, or 181 full days and 4 half days etc). As a parent they recommend that I keep account of the days, and inform the governance department in the department of education is less days are scheduled or worked, as they must be made up.She said something about the days been officially marked in and that they are available for parents under FOI, and that parents should keep their timetables. The person from the department said that unofficial half days at end of term times like Christmas, Easter and Summer are no longer acceptable and will be monitered if not made up. She sounded very official and knowledgeable. I wish she would tell the schools, as they are all different regarding half days, and no half days.

Whoever you spoke to in the DES didn't know what she was talking about (which would qualify her to post in this thread by the looks of things).

The parts in bold are incorrect.

Conelan

Okay, Scenario 1 - It's a few days before Christmas and your child/children finish school a couple of hours earlier than normal and go off to enjoy the excitement of the festive season. Scenario 2 - It's a beautiful summers day and the children finish school a couple of hours early and head off on their summer holidays. Can someone enlighten me as to what unbelieveable "high" would be derived from ensuring those children stayed in school until 3pm on those days? Are the contributors here that are advocating an end to the half day idea looking for more teaching time for their children or is it the issue that the teachers must be seen to "do the time"? Just can't see why some are so exercised about this, there are bigger worries in life.

muckisluck

koriko wrote: »

Oh right. My understanding was it did. Our schools has always disclosed such information through the school office. I just checked the ASTI website there to clarify, under this link- http://www.asti.ie/?id=283 .

Schools refusing such personal information regarding attendance may be in breach? Surely such a basic request from a parent wouldn't even warrant BOM approval but if I'm wrong I stand corrected.

You're absolutely right. My point would be though that there is no need to go through Freedom of Information to get it. It should be part of standard reporting to parents. Schools do not come under the Freedom of Information Act currently as sometimes schools have of necessity to deal with sensitive information that s not for disclosure.

huskerdu

Our school publishes the school calendar for the following school year at the end of the current school year. The only exceptions to this are the date of confirmation, and any elections which have not been announced by then.

Its hardly FOI territory, when it is just basic information about the school.

I just counted up the days for this year and its 183 full days, and 3 half days (last day of term)

byhookorbycrook

Two points:1) "most schools" don't have Aladdin, it is not free and many schools just can't afford this.
2) I'd get the name of the person you talked to, she doesn't seem to be in possession of "the facts" and unless she can actually stand over what was said to you, I'd be slow to quote " a woman in the DES."

As I said, we have been told that the half day arrangement is allowed in cases where it has traditionally been taken, Christmas, Easter and summer, I would be very surprised to learn that the majority of primary schools are acting contrary to a directive which according to this woman in the DES would leave them wide open to all kinds of trouble.

poolsandles

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Two points:1) "most schools" don't have Aladdin, it is not free and many schools just can't afford this.
2) I'd get the name of the person you talked to, she doesn't seem to be in possession of "the facts" and unless she can actually stand over what was said to you, I'd be slow to quote " a woman in the DES."

As I said, we have been told that the half day arrangement is allowed in cases where it has traditionally been taken, Christmas, Easter and summer, I would be very surprised to learn that the majority of primary schools are acting contrary to a directive which according to this woman in the DES would leave them wide open to all kinds of trouble.

Fully agree with all of the above. I know of several schools that all take half days where they were traditionally taken and there is no issue with the DES. If the majority of schools were incorrect in doing so, I am sure they would have been told. Some people in the DES have no idea of how schools are actually run day to day. The person you spoke to may have been one of these.

muckisluck

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Two points:1) "most schools" don't have Aladdin, it is not free and many schools just can't afford this.
2) I'd get the name of the person you talked to, she doesn't seem to be in possession of "the facts" and unless she can actually stand over what was said to you, I'd be slow to quote " a woman in the DES."

As I said, we have been told that the half day arrangement is allowed in cases where it has traditionally been taken, Christmas, Easter and summer, I would be very surprised to learn that the majority of primary schools are acting contrary to a directive which according to this woman in the DES would leave them wide open to all kinds of trouble.

Can I just ask if you're slow to quote a "woman in the DES" who would you quote that told you the "half day arrangement is allowed".
I think the latest circular is very different from all those that have gone before. Up to now my understanding is that a blind eye was turned towards half days but perhaps this is about to change.

byhookorbycrook

Because the "woman in the DES" showed she hadn't a clue, FOI stuff etc. that she got completely wrong,whereas an inspector told us that there was not an issue about half days for the above once they had been traditionally taken.

spurious

poolsandles wrote: »

Some people in the DES have no idea of how schools are actually run day to day.

So true.

byhookorbycrook

poolsandles wrote: »

Some people in the DES have no idea of how schools are actually run day to day.

Can we include RQ in this???!!

poolsandles

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Can we include RQ in this???!!

He's top of my list!!!!!

lemonchocolate

Not sure I know what you mean, that the women in the department, did not know what she was talking about. She sent me relevant circulars, please direct me to circulars to show me that she is incorrect. Out of interest I did count the days in my calendar sent home from the school, 180 full days, 3 half days. I have no intention of sending them in, but I was disappointed that the school was not working the minimum.

Conelan

lemonchocolate wrote: »

but I was disappointed that the school was not working the minimum.

But do you not see, this cuts to the very nub of the matter? If schools were to work the minimum that would mean the following changes for me and many like me; no voluntary pre school supervision, no voluntary attendance at extra curricular activities outside of 9 to 3 e.g sports, music, quizzes, etc., no voluntary attendance at parent council meetings, no Christmas concerts outside 9 to 3, no intrusion into my St Patricks weekend by school related activities, no school tour departure time before 9am and no return later than 3pm, (I'm sure others could add to this list)
Believe me, if working 12.30 to 3 on the day preceding Christmas, Easter and summer holidays could be exchanged for the above I'd snap your hand off in agreement to it. Come to think of it, working "the minimum" sounds like absolute bliss. I might try giving the Department a ring about it!!!!!

ShamoBuc

Conelan wrote: »

But do you not see, this cuts to the very nub of the matter? If schools were to work the minimum that would mean the following changes for me and many like me; no voluntary pre school supervision, no voluntary attendance at extra curricular activities outside of 9 to 3 e.g sports, music, quizzes, etc., no voluntary attendance at parent council meetings, no Christmas concerts outside 9 to 3, no intrusion into my St Patricks weekend by school related activities, no school tour departure time before 9am and no return later than 3pm, (I'm sure others could add to this list)
Believe me, if working 12.30 to 3 on the day preceding Christmas, Easter and summer holidays could be exchanged for the above I'd snap your hand off in agreement to it. Come to think of it, working "the minimum" sounds like absolute bliss. I might try giving the Department a ring about it!!!!!

I'm sure a lot of schools have Communion and confirmation outside of school hours - good luck organizing the kids without their teachers.

byhookorbycrook

lemonchocolate wrote: »

Not sure I know what you mean, that the women in the department, did not know what she was talking about. She sent me relevant circulars, please direct me to circulars to show me that she is incorrect. Out of interest I did count the days in my calendar sent home from the school, 180 full days, 3 half days. I have no intention of sending them in, but I was disappointed that the school was not working the minimum.

If you look at my post above about FOI and schools etc, you will see how she is ill informed. If you have an issue with a school please feel free to take it to the BOM or indeed DES.
Funny how people are worked up about 3 half days and don't seem to mind teachers doing all the stuff we do for our pupils on our own time.

lemonchocolate

Conelan I assume you are a Teacher.
My school does not offer pre school supervision, or after school activities, not sure what you mean by parent council meetings, we don't have a parent council. Our school concert takes place during school hours. If the school tour is scheduled to go beyond the standard day, the hours can be deducted from the croke park time. (I only found that out last year, when my child's teacher told us that she would rathar be on the bus for the school tour, that doing the croke park time, and was glad she did not have to work it that week). I am not sure what you mean by intrusion into your St Patricks weekend by school related activities.
Are you telling me that a school should offer these benefits in exchange for missing a day and a half school time, as my school does not?

lemonchocolate

Posters here said that the women in the department was wrong, please direct me to the relevant circulars, so I can take it up with the department. Otherwise I assume she was right. She did not direct me to request information from the school under FOI, I believe she was talking about requesting it from the Department.

killbillvol2

lemonchocolate wrote: »

OK, so it is 180 full days and 3 half days at primary. One of my children had a half day at halloween, and the friday before mid-term breaks also. So he had 6 half days per year.

lemonchocolate wrote: »

Not sure I know what you mean, that the women in the department, did not know what she was talking about. She sent me relevant circulars, please direct me to circulars to show me that she is incorrect. Out of interest I did count the days in my calendar sent home from the school, 180 full days, 3 half days. I have no intention of sending them in, but I was disappointed that the school was not working the minimum.

Which is it? 6 half days or 3 half days?

lemonchocolate wrote: »

Posters here said that the women in the department was wrong, please direct me to the relevant circulars, so I can take it up with the department. Otherwise I assume she was right. She did not direct me to request information from the school under FOI, I believe she was talking about requesting it from the Department.

Why would the woman from the department tell you to request information from the department under FOI? What information? She sent you the circulars you said.

She also told you, according to you, that schools could use multiples of half days to make up full days;

"they can work half days but must make up the days. (182 full days and two half days, or 181 full days and 4 half days etc."

This is incorrect in case you didn't understand my last post on the subject.

Maybe, since you seem to have a lot of time on your hands, you could show me where it says that in one of the circulars your friend from the department sent you?

lemonchocolate

lemonchocolate wrote: »

I have a daughter in another school and they only get a half day at Christmas and summer, it causes great friction in the house.

When I counted the half days, it was 3, I have no timetable to hand for my other child, but I know it is 5 or 6.

I have no friends in the Department, I know nobody in the Department, I phoned for clarification. I assume you are trying to be "smart" by saying I must have a lot of time on my hands!

I cannot transfer the circular accross it is 5 pages, but I have placed in the relevant quotes.

The minimum number of teaching days per school year will be 183 full school days
(see below). It is stressed that this is a minimum number which must be adhered to
by all schools (and all classes withi
n a school). In no sense should this number be
regarded as a maximum for any school.
If a school completes less than two hours and fifty minutes in any day of operation,
such period may not be registered as part of the 183 days minimum for pupil
teaching.
Any day on which the pupils complete two hours and fifty minutes
but less than five
hours and forty minutes will be regarded as a half school day and may be registered
o
nly as a half day for purposes of compliance with the minimum school year
requirement.

She told me on the phone that schools are allowed to work half days, but they must be made up. Sure if a half day can only be registered as a half day, the school must obviously need work another half day to make up a full day.