Religious Right Chastity Groups being allowed into Irish Schools

Sleepy

Just came across this on the Journal and utterly disgusted by it.

A CATHOLIC YOUTH group which has been travelling around the country, giving talks on chastity to students, taped teens at one school together by the wrist in front of their classmates as a way of demonstrating what happens when a person has multiple sexual partners.
A student at the Dublin school told The Journal.ie that the group, Pure in Heart Ireland, spent two hours talking about how abstinence was “god’s way and how we should seek to live by this. ”
“We were told how ‘god loves sex’,” they said. “However it was implied that is only after marriage.”
This talk was given by a man and two women, all in their twenties. The student gave details of a role play game students were asked to take part in, which he said made the majority of them feel “uncomfortable”.
“Towards the end of the talk four girls and one guy were asked to ‘volunteer’ to come up to the front,”they said. “A piece of Sellotape was put around the wrists of one of the girls and the guy.”
The girl was in a sexual relationship with the guy. But they break up. This was demonstrated by one of the speakers ripping the Sellotape off their wrists, in what must have been somewhat painful. The process was repeated with the three other girls (and the same guy, with the same piece of Sellotape). This was supposed to demonstrate the effect of having sex before marriage. The Sellotape collects hair and is no longer useful.
On the topic of pornography, the student also said one of the speakers “casually equated serial killers with the watching of” it.
Pure in Heart, which has its Irish headquarters in Dublin, in the same building as the Iona Institute, describes itself as an ‘international Catholic movement of young adults, who through prayer and friendship, strive to learn, live and share the truth, beauty and meaning of human sexuality”.
On its Facebook page, the group mentions trips to schools all around the country and posts pictures and messages promoting chastity:
image
(Image: Pure in Heart Ireland/Facebook)
Promoting safe sex
Speaking to TheJournal.ie, Director of youth outreach service SpunOut.ie said that while groups are entitled to advocate abstinence, “it is not an effective, nor is it a comprehensive way to promote safe sex among young people”.
It’s up to each individual – the choice to have sex or not and that needs to be at the forefront of sexual education. Also, having respect for your partner, that’s the message that needs to be gotten across and it’s much more empowering than saying ‘don’t do something’.
Power said there is a vital need in this country for standardised sex educations.
“No one is overseeing how often they’re doing it, what schools are delivering in full, what is in line with their ethos,” he said. “Some government oversight is needed on groups that go into schools delivering talks without parental knowledge or consent.”
Ellen O’Malley-Dunlop of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre said her organisation’s talks in schools have an emphasis on exploring the area of consent and what it means.
“The idea is to get into schools to facilitate this conversation and rather than give a lecture we prefer to work with people in groups,” she said. “I think it’s terribly important that young people get appropriate input on what it means to have a healthy relationship.”
Frustrated
The student said that some classmates were open to the group’s ideas and agreed with what they were saying.
For many others, myself included, we were somewhat frustrated by the content of the presentation. If we had any questions to challenge what they were saying it was dismissed or glossed over. There was no real engagement on issues outside of their PowerPoint slide.
The Department of Education’s best practice guidelines cite research which has consistently shown that the “qualified classroom teacher is the best placed professional to work sensitively and consistently with students and that s/he can have a powerful impact on influencing students’ attitudes, values and behaviour in all aspects of health education”.
It was announced last month that reforms in the new Junior Cycle will include a course on relationships and sexuality as part of Social, Personal and Health Education (SPHE), with the aim of making sex education more consistent.
Pure in Heart Ireland did not respond to multiple requests for comment on the talks it gives in schools.

Original article: http://www.thejournal.ie/sex-education-sellotape-1310906-Feb2014/

Why on earth are we allowing such nutjobs into Irish schools? I've emailed Minister Quinn on this issue and would encourage other parents to do the same.

Time and time again we hear how these initiatives by the Christian Right lead to increased teen-pregnancy and STI rates and in a country with no proper sex education curriculum it seems absolutely crazy to allow such unqualified morons preach to our children in an environment where they are supposed to be being educated rather than indoctrinated.

I'm (sickeningly) aware that most of our schools are still run by religious groups and that we sign up to their "ethos" when enrolling our children but the vast majority of this country (even the majority of those that call themselves Catholic) don't subscribe to this type of nonsense and for a huge number of us, there simply isn't the option to provide our children with an education that doesn't come with a large side-helping of religious indoctrination.

Calmsurrender

This is vile and disgraceful.
It's a while now since ai was in school but even then there was about three "young cool hipp" religious teachers who used to say things like "oh jeekers" coz no one must take the lords name in vain and talk about how they'd date a guy for two years and not sleep with him etc came across as a right pack of nut jobs to me as a 15 year old! You're not my peer , you don't live in my world and you never will.

At least the middle aged teachers were more copped on and open about contraception and consent and stuff like abortion and pregnancy. And above all they were balanced about it. Young people need the facts in a good and supportive environment. Yes wouldn't it be marvellous if everyone just got married and had babies and lived happily ever after and no one got their heartbroken, used , stds , unwanted pregnancy but that's not the world we live in now .

It makes me think of that episode of family guy where they hand out chasity rings in the school and they are all screwing each other in the ear.

clairefontaine

This is incredibly dangerous. We all know repression does not work and yet they are still spouting this ****. Sellotape? What the...?

There is plenty of scientific evidence on the relationship between repressed eroticism and violence. Someone needs to point this out to Minister Quinn.

It wont be me though, I think his office is sick of hearing from me about these matters.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/201004/sexual-repression-the-malady-considers-itself-the-remedy

Orion

Sleepy wrote: »

Time and time again we hear how these initiatives by the Christian Right lead to increased teen-pregnancy

This is exactly how successful these nuts are:

Toots

This really sickened me. I'm all for teaching kids to wait until they're in relationship and feel ready to have sex (as opposed to just doing it cos all your mates are and you don't want to be the only virgin), but this is just horrible. Basically saying kids are useless and nobody will want them if they've done the no pants dance before marriage! "Oooh, nobody's gonna marry you, you're damaged goods!!" The article doesn't mention the ages of the 'teens' involved but there's a chance some of them have already had sex. What message are they supposed to take away from that little 'talk'? "You're worthless now!"

Also noticed how RTE failed to report on this, must be that they're afraid they'll have to shell out more moolah.

pwurple

This is a non-story surely. Secondary school kids see a power point presentation they don't like? So what?

I remember all sorts of gombeens coming into school giving talks, they were all brushed off. There will be an opposing talk next week. You can't shelter them from opinions they are not going to like for ever. At some point they need to learn to be critical thinkers.

Fom the comments in the article, it sounds like those students are already there.

thetoffeeman

Surely, the parents were pre-warned about the visit? I'd certainly hope my school would send out a text making parents aware that groups like this are talking to their children.

nikpmup

I remember being shown a video in secondary school which had been produced by some catholic youth crowd, all about a poor cailín who was pressured into sex by her big bad boyfriend, who then scarpered when she got pregnant. Utter nonsense, and it didn't work.

Instilling fear and guilt into a child is no way to teach, IMO. For what it's worth, I'm hoping my child will attend an educate together, but if he ends up I a catholic run school, I will be requesting he sits out of RE classes - I'd much rather he read a book or something for that hour. And as for that crowd coming into the school - I'd be livid.

Sleepy

pwurple wrote: »

This is a non-story surely. Secondary school kids see a power point presentation they don't like? So what?

I remember all sorts of gombeens coming into school giving talks, they were all brushed off. There will be an opposing talk next week. You can't shelter them from opinions they are not going to like for ever. At some point they need to learn to be critical thinkers.

Fom the comments in the article, it sounds like those students are already there.

Do you honestly think that the students are being encourage to critically analzye the content they're being presented with? Or are they being encouraged to accept this guff by the priest who's invited these eejits in? Do you think that teachers are encouraged to speak out against it when that same priest has a seat on the Board of Management?

It's not about "sheltering them from opinions", it's about not allowing complete nonsense to be presented as education. It's about not allowing groups in to tell kids that may already be sexually active that they're of lesser worth than those who are chaste.

thetoffeeman wrote: »

Surely, the parents were pre-warned about the visit? I'd certainly hope my school would send out a text making parents aware that groups like this are talking to their children.

I get the impression that the parents wouldn't have been warned about this tbh. and it was the basis of my email to Minister Quinn. I certainly don't remember my parents being informed when our RE classes in school had presenters in from the AA, the Pro-Life groups etc. Perhaps this has changed since the late 90's but I'd be surprised if it has, or if there'd have been any attendance at the events in the article had parents been made aware of it in advance.

Yes, inviting external groups in to present to our children can be beneficial. I certainly remember the AA guy as having given a worthwhile presentation (16 years later, I still remember it) but we should be very selective about who we let in to present their views as "facts" in an environment where children are being educated: both in terms of content and in terms of ensuring those presenters are garda vetted.

lazygal

Are the people giving the talks garda vetted?

Orion

They don't need to be - as long as they are not left alone with the children and are accompanied by a vetted teacher.

lazygal

Orion wrote: »

They don't need to be - as long as they are not left alone with the children and are accompanied by a vetted teacher.

One would wonder what the teacher was doing during the sellotape incident.

pwurple

Sleepy wrote: »

Yes, inviting external groups in to present to our children can be beneficial. I certainly remember the AA guy as having given a worthwhile presentation (16 years later, I still remember it) but we should be very selective about who we let in to present their views as "facts" in an environment where children are being educated: both in terms of content and in terms of ensuring those presenters are garda vetted.

I think it's complete nonsense to assume this was done as part of a science class or presented as fact in any way. It was most likely the civics class, when various controversial debates are supposed to take place after the group has left.

eviltwin

Are parents warned? Probably depends on the school. My daughter has had two groups in this year and we didn't know anything about it until after the fact. Neither were religious so the content of the talks was okay but it does make you realise how your kids could be left open to a talk from a group that goes against your own views.

I remember she had a talk in 6th class where they were told that homosexuals are "unwell" and need help, this is probably an extreme view but it shows the calibre of some of these groups.

My daughter goes to a Catholic school so some will argue that its tough, if the nature of the talk is in keeping with a Catholic ethos we should just suck it up but I know some of these groups come out with claims that are downright dangerous at times.

Sleepy

pwurple wrote: »

I think it's complete nonsense to assume this was done as part of a science class or presented as fact in any way. It was most likely the civics class, when various controversial debates are supposed to take place after the group has left.

I think you're giving far too much credit here with nothing to base it on tbh. Perhaps there was a "weren't those nuts crazy" debate afterwards but while I cana ccept that things may have changed since I was in school (left in 1998) I'd be surprised if they've changed that much.

Speaking from a position that disagreed with Catholic teaching was quite frowned upon in the school I attended and calling these people out on their bull**** would have almost certainly earned one a detention for "being rude to guests of the school".

Even if there was such a debate, are groups with opposing groups being allowed to present to the students to help balance that debate? We were bombarded with anti-abortion material in 5th and 6th year and I can't imagine things have changed so much that a group espousing a woman's right to choose would be allowed near a school that's under the control of the religious these days either.

Religion has no place in education imo and the only role I can think of for fundamentalist horse crap as espoused by the likes of this crowd would be for an English class to learn to critically assess an incoherent argument that's based on emotive language and logical fallacies.

endacl

S'OK folks. I happen to know someone who used to present this program. Your average, remotely clued-in teenager will recognise them as well-meaning and clueless. Because they are well-meaning and clueless.

Let's trust our teenagers to recognize bull5hit when they see it. I remember being sent on a one day thing with Fr (ironic honorific) Michael Cleary when I was in school. We didn't like him, we didn't like what he said, or how he said it. We let him know. He didn't like that, and got cross. We won.

Teenagers can be very smart, and most have highly tuned bull5hit detectors.

Sleepy

And some teenagers can be very dumb and not all have decent bull**** detectors... (like one would presume the person you know whose involved with this crowd was at that age)

I don't want anyone clueless lecturing my children in their school, no matter well-meaning they are and especially if they're not a member of the teaching staff who is preaching intolerance without a signed permission slip for my child to be in their audience. I really don't think that's too much to ask. I'd prefer if I could insist that other parents weren't allowed to authorise these people to speak to their kids either to be honest but that's not for me to demand any more than it's for them to demand that I tolerate them forcing my children to listen to this nonsense.

clairefontaine

pwurple wrote: »

I think it's complete nonsense to assume this was done as part of a science class or presented as fact in any way. It was most likely the civics class, when various controversial debates are supposed to take place after the group has left.

I would consider this sex ed and would expect to be asked permission by the school for such a lecture.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

clairefontaine wrote: »

I would consider this sex ed and would expect to be asked permission by the school for such a lecture.

Sex education is part of the compulsory SPHE curriculum, the school does not have to ask permission to teach it.

The article is from the journal, the internet version of a tabloid like the sun, it is hardly very reliable and is certainly sensationalised and biased.

I am presuming it is a catholic school, I think that it would be unreasonable of a parent to expect that they could send their child to a catholic school but not be taught catholic values, I.e don't have sex before marriage.

The sellotape game was used presumably to show that if you sleep around you can pick up lots of things. What's wrong with that?

eviltwin

Raul Obedient Baby wrote: »

Sex education is part of the compulsory SPHE curriculum, the school does not have to ask permission to teach it.

The article is from the journal, the internet version of a tabloid like the sun, it is hardly very reliable and is certainly sensationalised and biased.

I am presuming it is a catholic school, I think that it would be unreasonable of a parent to expect that they could send their child to a catholic school but not be taught catholic values, I.e don't have sex before marriage.

The sellotape game was used presumably to show that if you sleep around you can pick up lots of things. What's wrong with that?

As parents you have an expectation that you can know what your kids are being taught. Not all of us sending our kids to Catholic schools are doing so out of choice, we have no option in a lot of cases.

I have no objections to outside groups coming in and giving talks on a range of subjects but as a parent I do expect a heads up so I can have a look at the group involved and decide for myself if I want my child included or not. In a lot of cases students aren't given anything to bring home so you're only knowledge of the talk at all is if your child tells you or you hear it from another parent.

There are so many groups out there that offer these talks, many without any agenda or bias so there is no need for any of these extreme right wing groups to give a talk. At the very least a bit of notice to the parents in advance is not too much to ask.

pwurple

Sleepy wrote: »

Religion has no place in education imo.

Perhaps your bias in this regard is colouring your outrage here.

People who hold opinions like these exist in every walk of life. I don't think there is anything wrong with education on various religions, from completely mainstream to whacked-out extremists sects. It's educationg them on the world around them and what influences others. Better encountering it in school to be familiar with how to deal with it imho.

Every student quoted in that 'article' (and I use the term loosely when speaking about The Journal) saw straight through it anyway, and deemed it ridiculous.

Fuss about Nothing.

eviltwin

pwurple wrote: »

Perhaps your bias in this regard is colouring your outrage here.

People who hold options like these exist in every walk of life. I don't think there is anything wrong with education on various religions, from completely mainstream to whacked-out extremists sects. It's educationg them on the world around them and what influences others. Better encountering it in school to be familiar with how to deal with it imho.

Every student quoted in that 'article' (and I use the term loosely when speaking about The Journal) saw straight through it anyway, and deemed it ridiculous.

Fuss about Nothing.

These talks aren't religious education, its not even education, its just one group coming in to share their moral bias about how one should conduct oneself in a relationship.

clairefontaine

pwurple wrote: »

Perhaps your bias in this regard is colouring your outrage here.

People who hold options like these exist in every walk of life. I don't think there is anything wrong with education on various religions, from completely mainstream to whacked-out extremists sects. It's educationg them on the world around them and what influences others. Better encountering it in school to be familiar with how to deal with it imho.

Every student quoted in that 'article' (and I use the term loosely when speaking about The Journal) saw straight through it anyway, and deemed it ridiculous.

Fuss about Nothing.

Bull****.

The difference is this:

In a Catholic School: JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

In a non-biased school:

CATHOLIC DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

pwurple

clairefontaine wrote: »

Bull****.

See, you're sorted already. You only need to teach your children to shriek the same thing at people.

clairefontaine

pwurple wrote: »

See, you're sorted already. You only need to teach your children to shriek the same thing at people.

What?

Sleepy

Raul Obedient Baby wrote: »

Sex education is part of the compulsory SPHE curriculum, the school does not have to ask permission to teach it.

This is not sex education. It's advocacy of a belief system that is literally promoting the definitive opposite of sex.

Sex education involves medical details of how pregnancy occurs, means of contraception, STI's, safe sex practices arguably along with a conversation surrounding issues of consent, inter-personal relationships etc.

The article is from the journal, the internet version of a tabloid like the sun, it is hardly very reliable and is certainly sensationalised and biased.

I am presuming it is a catholic school, I think that it would be unreasonable of a parent to expect that they could send their child to a catholic school but not be taught catholic values, I.e don't have sex before marriage.

It would be unreasonable if sending one's child to a catholic school was an open choice. This is not the case in the majority Ireland. Even where non-denominational schools exist, they're wildly over-subscribed and the overflow goes to the religious schools for historic reasons. Your comments on thejournal.ie aren't worth responding to.

The sellotape game was used presumably to show that if you sleep around you can pick up lots of things. What's wrong with that?

As mentioned by some students on the After Hours thread on this article who've actually endured this lecture, it's not. It's designed to argue that one's capacity to love or be loved is diminished by every sexual partner one has (the sellotape stops being sticky as it's stuck to lots of people i.e. no one will want to / be able form a proper relationship with you if you engage in sexual activity outside of marriage :rolleyes:)

Sleepy

pwurple wrote: »

Perhaps your bias in this regard is colouring your outrage here.

I don't consider wanting the right to not have people trying to indoctrinate my children into a faith that's not my own in a state-funded education system "bias".

It's my belief that education should be education and religious instruction should be funded and carried out outside of that.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to indoctrinate their own children. I'm asking that they stop trying to assert a "right" to indoctrinate mine by exploiting their religion's undue influence in our country's education system.

The fact that the vast majority of those people don't pay any heed to those teachings only makes it even more infuriating. At least the nut-jobs in question believe their out-dated teachings about sex, mysogeny and homophobia. Why on earth are those who don't defending them?

clairefontaine

Sleepy wrote: »

I don't consider wanting the right to not have people trying to indoctrinate my children into a faith that's not my own in a state-funded education system "bias".

It's my belief that education should be education and religious instruction should be funded and carried out outside of that.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to indoctrinate their own children. I'm asking that they stop trying to assert a "right" to indoctrinate mine by exploiting their religion's undue influence in our country's education system.

The fact that the vast majority of those people don't pay any heed to those teachings only makes it even more infuriating. At least the nut-jobs in question believe their out-dated teachings about sex, mysogeny and homophobia. Why on earth are those who don't defending them?

When my little one was in J1, the way I anti doted their seed planting was to tell him it's really not that important, that God is not that important and to ignore it.

LadyMayBelle

This sounds all too familiar to me, but I was taught it not through Catholic groups but through Christian groups in Galway. I could smell the bulls**t a mile off, but if you arent assertive enough it's well easy to get carried along with the fun of attending camps and weekends away and having fun people come over from the US and Europe to 'talk' at these weekends.

The sellotape one was taught a little different, but the gist of it was that by the time the woman/man got to the altar to marry their 'true love', attached to them with sellotape was a string of people, all of whom to which they gave aay a little part of themselves and couldnt get it back. So basically, when youre at the altar, you are never really giving yourself whole to the person who you are about to marry.

FECKED UP BIG TIME. I only hope my little sister isnt exposed to this tripe in her secondary school. I would be first on the phone to complain.

silverbolt

nikpmup wrote: »

I remember being shown a video in secondary school which had been produced by some catholic youth crowd, all about a poor cailín who was pressured into sex by her big bad boyfriend, who then scarpered when she got pregnant. Utter nonsense, and it didn't work.

Instilling fear and guilt into a child is no way to teach, IMO. For what it's worth, I'm hoping my child will attend an educate together, but if he ends up I a catholic run school, I will be requesting he sits out of RE classes - I'd much rather he read a book or something for that hour. And as for that crowd coming into the school - I'd be livid.

but thats what catholocism does in regards to things like this.

It takes something totally natural and normal and makes it something to be guilty over, it makes you feel bad about it, that you have done something wrong and something be ashamed of - and then very conveniently provides the cure for it. Its control and indoctrination.

If one of these whackjob groups came in and i wasnt informed and given the option to opt out id hit the damn roof. Id also dearly love to publically in front of those students debunk and destroy any arguement they may have.