Applying for Irish driving license

megis

Ulster Bank Customers may wish to know that the Driving License Office in Citywest Dublin does not accept Ulster Bank statements as evidence of ID / address.

Miscreant

megis wrote: »

Ulster Bank Customers may wish to know that the Driving License Office in Citywest Dublin does not accept Ulster Bank statements as evidence of ID / address.

Did they tell you why they were refusing the statement as proof of address? They clearly state on the website that:
• Statement from Bank/Building Society/Credit Union (Statements from Store cards/catalogue companies are not acceptable

I would have thought that Ulster Bank is a Bank so fits into this category, although you would not be able to use the statement as I.D, only proof of address.

No Pants

Not mentioned on the NDLS page. Did they give a reason why?

megis

I took my Ulster Bank Statement to Citywest. They would not accept it, claiming that it did not have a date of issue. They called it a "mini statement" (?). I went back to Ulster Bank who pointed out that my statement is clearly marked at the top 'Statement from (date) to (date)". They also told me that there is no other type of statement available from Ulster Bank. I asked them for written confirmation of this to take back to Citywest, but they said they do not give out letters to customers on request. So there it is. The Ulster Bank Statement is not acceptable. End of Story. I am not impressed but there is nothing I can do. I'm trapped between 2 inflexible bureaucracies who flatly refuse to communicate with each other.

djimi

megis wrote: »

I took my Ulster Bank Statement to Citywest. They would not accept it, claiming that it did not have a date of issue. They called it a "mini statement" (?). I went back to Ulster Bank who pointed out that my statement is clearly marked at the top 'Statement from (date) to (date)". They also told me that there is no other type of statement available from Ulster Bank. I asked them for written confirmation of this to take back to Citywest, but they said they do not give out letters to customers on request. So there it is. The Ulster Bank Statement is not acceptable. End of Story. I am not impressed but there is nothing I can do. I'm trapped between 2 inflexible bureaucracies who flatly refuse to communicate with each other.

If its not dated then its probably fair enough that its not valid. To and From dates on the data itself are not what they want to see; they need to see when the actual statement was issued.

coylemj

djimi wrote: »

If its not dated then its probably fair enough that its not valid. To and From dates on the data itself are not what they want to see; they need to see when the actual statement was issued.

Which sounds reasonable except if the 'to' date is within the range they are looking for then it should be acceptable since clearly the statement couldn't have been issued before that date if you get my drift.

So if the NDLS people say (as they do) that they want to see a statement which is 'no more than 6 months old' and the OP is producing a bank statement showing transactions for the month of October 2013 but which has no 'date of issue' at the top then surely they should accept that?

OP, what period does the does your statement cover?

djimi

That makes perfect sense alright. I guess they just want see a dated letter, as the date of the letter determines the validity of the address, not the data, even if the data actually does the job in this case. Its ridiculous that Ulster Bank dont format such things properly.

megis

the statement covers the period November 23rd 2013 to December 20th 2013. I say again, ALL Ulster Bank Statements are NOT accepted by Driving License Office in Citywest Shopping Centre. I merely wish to draw this to the attention of Ulster Bank Customers - ie don't waste your time bringing UB statements to these people because they will NOT accept them. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that this represents the Irish Civil Service at its barmiest, but who cares what I think.

coylemj

megis wrote: »

the statement covers the period November 23rd 2013 to December 20th 2013. I say again, ALL Ulster Bank Statements are NOT accepted by Driving License Office in Citywest Shopping Centre. I merely wish to draw this to the attention of Ulster Bank Customers - ie don't waste your time bringing UB statements to these people because they will NOT accept them. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that this represents the Irish Civil Service at its barmiest, but who cares what I think.

Talk to Joe, seriously this would be right up his street and is probably the quickest way to get it changed. Drop him an e-mail (joe@rte.ie) in the morning with your phone number included, one of his researchers will ring you back. You need to be prepared to talk to Joe for broadcast, they're not interested in reading out e-mails.

Not sure if they broadcast the conversation live, they might be nervous after a certain case a few years ago which cost them a lot of money.

megis

The statement includes a summary sheet which is headed "Statement for the period 23 November 2013 to 20 December 2013". The Ulster bank say this is the "date of issue" and assure me that this is the only form of statement that they will issue to their customers. End of story. The D License people say this is not a date of issue and flatly refuse to accept it. Once again - end of story. I am not impressed with the attitude of either organisation, which I believe to be willfully
obstructive, but so what? I don't get my license, and neither will any Ulster bank customer who makes the trek out to Citywest with a UB statement. I just want folks to be aware of this, that's all. If, as it appears, you find some merit in the DL Section's logic, that's up to you. I certainly do not.

coylemj

megis wrote: »

If, as it appears, you find some merit in the DL Section's logic, that's up to you. I certainly do not.

There are multiple people responding to your posts, if you want to directly respond to one of them then you need to quote their post, otherwise we don't know who that above remark is addressed to. To quote another post, press the 'Quote' button below the specific post that you want to respond to.

In case that remark is addressed to me, I do not see any 'logic' in the decision to reject the UB statement, far from it. I see the merit in your complaint, I think you need to complain to the RSA or take it to the media. Did you ask to speak to a supervisor? I find it hard to believe that the entire staff of the NDLS are refusing Ulster Bank statements when they have a nationwide branch network.

djimi

megis wrote: »

If, as it appears, you find some merit in the DL Section's logic, that's up to you. I certainly do not.

The merit in their logic comes from the fact that they have no way of proving when that statement was issued. In your case that statement could have been issued on 21st December or it could have been issued yesterday; the data alone does not determine the validity of the address of the statement.

Okay you could argue that common sense could be applied and some leeway shown in cases like yours where the data is recent enough, but if Ulster Bank are not formatting their statements correctly and the required date of issue is missing, its probable that this has been an issue for these guys in the past, and as such they have been told not to accept UB statements as a valid form of address verification.

I understand your frustration, but the issue is with Ulster Bank, not with the driving license people.

megis

are you a civil servant by any chance? Your opinion as to who the issue is with is irrelevant. As I have stated from the beginning of this, I'm merely trying to advise UB customers that their statements are not acceptable to the D License people in Citywest, so they don't waste their time going there. It would be nice to see on the DL website an announcement such as "Please note we do not accept UB statements", but perhaps this is too much to ask.

megis

Yes I did speak to a supervisor.

megis

Sorry I'm new to this site and I haven't figured out how the quote button works.

djimi

megis wrote: »

are you a civil servant by any chance? Your opinion as to who the issue is with is irrelevant. As I have stated from the beginning of this, I'm merely trying to advise UB customers that their statements are not acceptable to the D License people in Citywest, so they don't waste their time going there. It would be nice to see on the DL website an announcement such as "Please note we do not accept UB statements", but perhaps this is too much to ask.

So you can moan about an issue, but if I try and give you some possible reasoning for the issue then my opinion is irrelevant? Wonderful.

And no, Im not a civil servant. I just took the time to read your post and offer you a possible explanation for the matter.

No Pants

megis wrote: »

Sorry I'm new to this site and I haven't figured out how the quote button works.

If you click the quote button on the bottom right of another user's post, it will wrap tags around their text, allowing it to be quotes. You just type your bit anywhere outside of those tags, usually below, and it should quote the post just like this one.
There is no more work required on your side, it's just a different button that you press when posting.

coylemj

megis wrote: »

Yes I did speak to a supervisor.

Then you need to take it up with the RSA. The NDLS website says the following about the documentation requirement to prove your address, last line underlined by me..

Evidence of address

• Utility Bill (i.e. from your electricity/phone/gas/cable television/broadband provider). Printed online utility bills are accepted. Mobile phone bills are not acceptable
• Correspondence from an insurance company regarding an insurance policy
• Statement from Bank/Building Society/Credit Union (Statements from Store cards/catalogue companies are not acceptable)
• Letter from Department of Social Protection/Revenue
• Other official correspondence from an Irish state agency e.g. government departments; HSE; Register of Electors/Polling card; CAO; Private Residential Tenancies Board or third level college/training agency

These documents can be no more than 6 months old at date of application

Clearly your statement couldn't have been more than 6 months old if it contained a list of transactions up to late December 2013.

BTW, I do not think that Ulster Bank are in any way to blame for this fiasco, why should they update their systems to comply with a ridiculously bureaucratic requirement which makes no sense whatsoever?

megis

I'm in complete agreement with you. Maybe I sounded a bit harsh on the Ulster Bank but then all they need to do is head their statements "date of issue - (etc)" and all would be well. It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of human ingenuity, but there you go..
As I keep saying, all I wanted to do was make UB customers aware of the situation.
For myself,
I am arranging for my name to be added to my partner's on the ESB bill. Please God the DL people will accept this.
Thanks to all for the well intentioned advice about Joe Duffy, the Road Traffic Authority, and supervisors etc. and sorry to "Djimi" for "moaning".
thassall folks!

coylemj

megis wrote: »

I'm in complete agreement with you. Maybe I sounded a bit harsh on the Ulster Bank but then all they need to do is head their statements "date of issue - (etc)" and all would be well. It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of human ingenuity, but there you go..

Can't see UB doing anything about it, there's no value in it for them and it would take months to get the IT systems updated to facilitate it. If they told their bosses in RBS that they needed to do this to satisfy some idiot bolshie bureaucrat in the Irish Driving Licence centre they'd just laugh at them so I'm not surprised that you got the response you did from them.

megis

there was more in my post than this. did you get the rest about ESB bill etc? sorry i'm new to this game.

coylemj

megis wrote: »

there was more in my post than this. did you get the rest about ESB bill etc? sorry i'm new to this game.

Yes but that was the only piece of your post that I was responding to. When you press the 'quote' button, you can remove some of the post if it's too long and/or you specifically want to respond to just one part of it.

megis

yes i understand now. Thanks for that.

dr.fuzzenstein

megis wrote: »

I took my Ulster Bank Statement to Citywest. They would not accept it, claiming that it did not have a date of issue. They called it a "mini statement" (?). I went back to Ulster Bank who pointed out that my statement is clearly marked at the top 'Statement from (date) to (date)". They also told me that there is no other type of statement available from Ulster Bank. I asked them for written confirmation of this to take back to Citywest, but they said they do not give out letters to customers on request. So there it is. The Ulster Bank Statement is not acceptable. End of Story. I am not impressed but there is nothing I can do. I'm trapped between 2 inflexible bureaucracies who flatly refuse to communicate with each other.

The legislation was set up to combat fraud.
Except of course the crooks will always have all the necessary paperwork, courtesy of blank bill forms, filled in with the correct incorrect details and they will be able to produce any type of paperwork to support any kind of claim within 5 minutes.
The problem is if you're honest and you just so happen to be in a situation where what you have is just not what they're looking for.
This is the reason honest people cannot get on in this country, because the legislation is not made to help, but to hinder.
5 minutes with a scanner and printer will see you right OP.
Someone at some bank once must have asked "what is an irrefutable proof of address that is impossible to fake? I know! An ESB bill! It is definitely not a document a 10 year old with a computer could fake in 5 minutes flat".
This problem does not arise in civilised countries, where your address is registered and can be obtained from looking at the proper, official documentation, rather than some tatty old electricity bill.

I bet with the use of a doctored bill and a computer I could conjure up a strawman out of thin air within 1 day, including birth cert. passport, social security number, driving licence, etc...
By saying "You must prove who you are by an ESB bill", we have just opened the door wiiiiide open to criminals interested in money laundering and identity theft.
The only people who are actually hindered by this are us honest fools who try to play these senseless rules.

CiniO

coylemj wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that the entire staff of the NDLS are refusing Ulster Bank statements when they have a nationwide branch network.

They are not. My ulster bank statement was fine in December when I applied for learner's permit in Mayo.

coylemj

CiniO wrote: »

They are not. My ulster bank statement was fine in December when I applied for learner's permit in Mayo.

Q.E.D.

CiniO

coylemj wrote: »

Q.E.D.

Q.E.D ???

ardmacha

Q.E.D ???

have you no Latin over there in Poland/Mayo?
quod erat demonstrandum = that proves my point
This is usually used in maths.

This does illustrate a lot that is wrong with this country. Ulster Bank are under no obligation to format their documents in any particular format, other than to tell you about your bank transactions. The rules require these letters, one place applies common sense while another does not. Either way nobody is held to account anywhere.

Mycroft H

CiniO wrote: »

Q.E.D ???

Latin; "Which was to be demonstrated". Basically something that proves something else.

CiniO

ardmacha wrote: »

have you no Latin over there in Poland?

I had none. I know doctors and lawyer must learn latin during their studies, but I'm neither of those

quod erat demonstrandum = that proves my point
This is usually used in maths.

This does illustrate a lot that is wrong with this country. Ulster Bank are under no obligation to format their documents in any particular format, other than to tell you about your bank transactions. The rules require these letters, one place applies common sense while another does not. Either way nobody is held to account anywhere.

IMO in general having utility bill or bank statement as proof of address is not the wisest way... but that's just my opinion.

megis

That's great. I'll just trek back out to Citywest and tell them about Mayo and everything will be fine? I don't think so. Good luck with your test and stick with Mayo is my advice. Call it an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Unfortunately Mayo is a bit too far for me. The Luas to Citywest is about my limit.

ardmacha

CiniO wrote: »

I had none. I know doctors and lawyer must learn latin during their studies, but I'm neither of those

I thought you were a Priest!

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

IMO in general having utility bill or bank statement as proof of address is not the wisest way... but that's just my opinion.

I absolutely agree with you there, like I keep saying, I can knock you up any bill you like with any name and address you like in about 5 minutes flat.
You don't have to be a genius with Photoshop, MS Paint will even do it.
Idiotic scheme thought up by an idiotic administration.
In Germany you have your ID card with your officially registered address, which can easily be checked with the authorities.
Not like here where you come in with some tatty ESB bill you knocked up earlier and "Yes Mr Karl Marx, that will do nicely, here is your contract, just sign on the dotted line"
I am absolutely certain that this cretinous system is milked to the hilt by criminals.



If I needed a bill and didn't have one to hand, I'd knock one up on the fly.
It's not like these have any kind of mechanisms that make them hard to forge.

megis

hopefully I wont need to resort to forgery, but I certainly take your point.

CiniO

ardmacha wrote: »

I thought you were a Priest!

If I were a priest, how would you explain my lack of Latin?

CiniO

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you there, like I keep saying, I can knock you up any bill you like with any name and address you like in about 5 minutes flat.
You don't have to be a genius with Photoshop, MS Paint will even do it.
Idiotic scheme thought up by an idiotic administration.
In Germany you have your ID card with your officially registered address, which can easily be checked with the authorities.
Not like here where you come in with some tatty ESB bill you knocked up earlier and "Yes Mr Karl Marx, that will do nicely, here is your contract, just sign on the dotted line"
I am absolutely certain that this cretinous system is milked to the hilt by criminals.

If I needed a bill and didn't have one to hand, I'd knock one up on the fly.
It's not like these have any kind of mechanisms that make them hard to forge.

That's exactly my thought in relation to this

CiniO

megis wrote: »

That's great. I'll just trek back out to Citywest and tell them about Mayo and everything will be fine? I don't think so. Good luck with your test and stick with Mayo is my advice. Call it an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Unfortunately Mayo is a bit too far for me. The Luas to Citywest is about my limit.

Don't get annoyed.
I just gave example that not every NDLS centre works like that.
I'm really sorry that you have problem with bureaucracy. I had problems with Irish bureaucracy many times as well, and I know it's not nice where there doesn't seem to be any solution to what would look like trivial problem.

megis

Not annoyed. Really - good luck with your test OK?

boomshakalaka

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you there, like I keep saying, I can knock you up any bill you like with any name and address you like in about 5 minutes flat.
You don't have to be a genius with Photoshop, MS Paint will even do it.
Idiotic scheme thought up by an idiotic administration.
In Germany you have your ID card with your officially registered address, which can easily be checked with the authorities.
Not like here where you come in with some tatty ESB bill you knocked up earlier and "Yes Mr Karl Marx, that will do nicely, here is your contract, just sign on the dotted line"
I am absolutely certain that this cretinous system is milked to the hilt by criminals.



If I needed a bill and didn't have one to hand, I'd knock one up on the fly.
It's not like these have any kind of mechanisms that make them hard to forge.

You forgot the bottom bit, Donal.

CiniO

megis wrote: »

Not annoyed. Really - good luck with your test OK?

Heh I applied for learner permit for motorbikes and artic trucks. I still need to do IDT for bikes, and also take few lessons on artic before taking the test, so it's going to be a while. But once I get those, I'll have all licence categories

dr.fuzzenstein

boomshakalaka wrote: »

You forgot the bottom bit, Donal.

Hehe, well I did knock that one up in about 30 seconds...:D

Might be worth offering a service along those lines.
"Can't get credit because you threw your ESB bill away? Sick and tired of gangsters getting all the breaks? Well, I can insert your name on any bill you like with any address you need!"

B_Rabbit

I wasn't asked for proof of address at all, had a bank statement in my hand but she didn't ask for it, Im assuming it's because she had my learner's permit and it had my address?