Unable to cancel rfuge collection without paying arears up front

oxygen

Hi

I use a refuge collection service in Carlow. They have a monthly charge which you pay in person in the office (or you can direct debit). The last time I paid this was September, that was also the last time they collected the refuge (which is fine). I don't generate alot of trash and was away for a bit. However apparently I still owe for the months they didn't collect the bins.

I want to cancel this service and go with another pay as you go service, but they wont cancel my service until i have paid the outstanding €10. Can they really hold me responsible for the €100 and subsequently add an extra €25 to the arrears every month until it it paid?

Ocean Blue

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Hi

I use a refuge collection service in Carlow. They have a monthly charge which you pay in person in the office (or you can direct debit). The last time I paid this was September, that was also the last time they collected the refuge (which is fine). I don't generate alot of trash and was away for a bit. However apparently I still owe for the months they didn't collect the bins.

I want to cancel this service and go with another pay as you go service, but they wont cancel my service until i have paid the outstanding €10. Can they really hold me responsible for the €100 and subsequently add an extra €25 to the arrears every month until it it paid?

The monthly charge is for the use of the bins. Presumably you had the bins at your house and they were available for you to use. If you wanted to stop using the service back then you should have had the company take back the bins. So you still owe the money.

PropJoe10

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Hi

I use a refuge collection service in Carlow. They have a monthly charge which you pay in person in the office (or you can direct debit). The last time I paid this was September, that was also the last time they collected the refuge (which is fine). I don't generate alot of trash and was away for a bit. However apparently I still owe for the months they didn't collect the bins.

I want to cancel this service and go with another pay as you go service, but they wont cancel my service until i have paid the outstanding €10. Can they really hold me responsible for the €100 and subsequently add an extra €25 to the arrears every month until it it paid?

Its likely that because you didnt contact them to cancel the agreement (which I assume you didnt), they'll look for the months outstanding because you didnt notify them that you wanted to cancel it.

oxygen

Ocean Blue wrote: »

The monthly charge is for the use of the bins. Presumably you had the bins at your house and they were available for you to use. If you wanted to stop using the service back then you should have had the company take back the bins. So you still owe the money.

The bins were full, they just stopped collecting them.

oxygen

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Its likely that because you didnt contact them to cancel the agreement (which I assume you didnt), they'll look for the months outstanding because you didnt notify them that you wanted to cancel it.

Well it was only in the last week I decided the cancel it. The point being though that I need to pay for 3 months service that I didnt receive, in spite of having rubbish in the bins

Ocean Blue

oxygen_temp wrote: »

The bins were full, they just stopped collecting them.

Yeah so the bins were storing your rubbish I.e. still in use by you. If you wanted to cancel the service you should have phoned them and arranged to have the bins taken away and your account closed.

Ocean Blue

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Well it was only in the last week I decided the cancel it. The point being though that I need to pay for 3 months service that I didnt receive, in spite of having rubbish in the bins

You did receive service - you had the use of the bins at your house. That has to be paid for, essentially you are renting the bins. Whether they are full or not beside your house is irrelevant. The fact that you didn't get the full service I.e. regular collections is because you failed to stick to your agreement to make monthly payments and also didn't close your account.

muffler

oxygen_temp wrote: »

I don't generate alot of trash and was away for a bit.

oxygen_temp wrote: »

The bins were full, they just stopped collecting them.

Those 2 statements appear to be contradictory. Perhaps you could explain?

PropJoe10

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Well it was only in the last week I decided the cancel it. The point being though that I need to pay for 3 months service that I didnt receive, in spite of having rubbish in the bins

An analogy would be if you take out a TV plan with someone - if you are provided with the TV service, its up to you as to whether you use it or not. I know this is slightly different because you're probably not under contract, but if you sign up for a subscription service and dont use it, thats your own loss and the charges would generally be seen as being valid by the company you signed up with.

oxygen

PropJoe10 wrote: »

An analogy would be if you take out a TV plan with someone - if you are provided with the TV service, its up to you as to whether you use it or not. I know this is slightly different because you're probably not under contract, but if you sign up for a subscription service and dont use it, thats your own loss and the charges would generally be seen as being valid by the company you signed up with.

Except there was rubbish to be collected that hasnt been collected since September. This is the €100 I owe. Using your analogy above I didn't actually receive the TV service for the last 4 months.

oxygen

muffler wrote: »

Those 2 statements appear to be contradictory. Perhaps you could explain?

As I mentioned I was away for a bit, also i should have stated partially full. They were only ever partially full, hence why i would prefer a pay as you go service.

Fat Nav

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Except there was rubbish to be collected that hasnt been collected since September. This is the €100 I owe. Using your analogy above I didn't actually receive the service for the last 4 months.

If I was paying for a service and the company did not collect my rubbish I would be on the phone straight away to them to come collect the rubbish.
you should of cancelled your service in September if you were not going to be using it.

oxygen

Fat Nav wrote: »

If I was paying for a service and the company did not collect my rubbish I would be on the phone straight away to them to come collect the rubbish.
you should of cancelled your service in September if you were not going to be using it.

As I mentioned above, I only decided the other week that I want to cancel it. The issue here is the €100 I owe for not receiving any service, and that they will keep charging me a monthly fee for the lack of service and will not cancel my account.

Duiske

Ocean Blue wrote: »

Presumably you had the bins at your house and they were available for you to use. If you wanted to stop using the service back then you should have had the company take back the bins. So you still owe the money.

Having the bins at his house means nothing. I cancelled a service last Sept and the company has still not collected their bins. Are you suggesting they would be within their rights to charge me for having use of them since Sept ?

foggy_lad

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Hi

I use a refuge collection service in Carlow. They have a monthly charge which you pay in person in the office (or you can direct debit). The last time I paid this was September, that was also the last time they collected the refuge (which is fine). I don't generate alot of trash and was away for a bit. However apparently I still owe for the months they didn't collect the bins.

I want to cancel this service and go with another pay as you go service, but they wont cancel my service until i have paid the outstanding €10. Can they really hold me responsible for the €100 and subsequently add an extra €25 to the arrears every month until it it paid?

They have already cancelled the service by refusing to collect your rubbish, they can't continue to charge for a service they don't provide.

oxygen_temp wrote: »

The bins were full, they just stopped collecting them.

Did you leave the bins out for collection and were they emptied? obviously not because the account was in arrears, Therefore they stopped providing the service and can not charge for providing a service which they did not provide! If your gas got cut off you would not be charged for what you might have used were it still connected!

If I were you I would sign up to the new service then contact the other place in writing and tell them their bins are there to be collected and if not collected in a reasonable time you will hand them to the litter warden, You will have to place the rubbish into your new providers bins.

Fat Nav

Duiske wrote: »

Having the bins at his house means nothing. I cancelled a service last Sept and the company has still not collected their bins. Are you suggesting they would be within their rights to charge me for having use of them since Sept ?

You cancelled last sept, so you don't owe any money even if the bins are still not collected.
The OP did not cancel in September so owes for the service.

foggy_lad

oxygen_temp wrote: »

As I mentioned above, I only decided the other week that I want to cancel it. The issue here is the €100 I owe for not receiving any service, and that they will keep charging me a monthly fee for the lack of service and will not cancel my account.

The monthly charge is for collection of refuse which they have not been collecting. They have the right to seek any charges up to the time they stopped collecting your rubbish but once they stopped they must stop charging.

Fat Nav

foggy_lad wrote: »

The monthly charge is for collection of refuse which they have not been collecting. They have the right to seek any charges up to the time they stopped collecting your rubbish but once they stopped they must stop charging.

I doubt OP was leaving out the bin for collection.
If OP left bin out for collection and it was not emptied they should of rang up to complain.

PropJoe10

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Except there was rubbish to be collected that hasnt been collected since September. This is the €100 I owe. Using your analogy above I didn't actually receive the TV service for the last 4 months.

Thats because you didnt pay your bill though, I assume. You never stated to them that you didnt want the service, therefore the charges would be valid. You can take it whatever way you like, I'm just telling you how a company would see that. If you were running a company and had a customer that never told you they wanted to cancel, didnt pay their recurring charges and then didnt want to pay the arrears, how would you feel?

oxygen

foggy_lad wrote: »

If I were you I would sign up to the new service then contact the other place in writing and tell them their bins are there to be collected and if not collected in a reasonable time you will hand them to the litter warden, You will have to place the rubbish into your new providers bins.

Yea, it just seems senseless to shell out €100 for a service for the last 3 months that I simply haven't been receiving. I will notify them in writing tomorrow and get in contact with the ombudsman tomorrow, see if they have any advice for me.

oxygen

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Thats because you didnt pay your bill though, I assume. You never stated to them that you didnt want the service, therefore the charges would be valid. You can take it whatever way you like, I'm just telling you how a company would see that. If you were running a company and had a customer that never told you they wanted to cancel, didnt pay their recurring charges and then didnt want to pay the arrears, how would you feel?

eh as a company if I didnt provide the service for 3 months, and they didnt want to pay arrears for services not rendered I would think they are well within their rights.

Fat Nav wrote: »

I doubt OP was leaving out the bin for collection.
If OP left bin out for collection and it was not emptied they should of rang up to complain.

The bins stay at the end of my drive always in the same place for collection. I don't move them, there isn't a gate by my drive and they are just at the very end of my drive. They have always been collected from this point previous months.

Fat Nav

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Yea, it just seems senseless to shell out €100 for a service for the last 3 months that I simply haven't been receiving. I will notify them in writing tomorrow and get in contact with the ombudsman tomorrow, see if they have any advice for me.

It is not the rubbish collectors fault you didn't bother using his service for the last few months.
The onus is on you to either use the service or cancel the service.
You ran up the bill and are liable for it..

foggy_lad

Fat Nav wrote: »

It is not the rubbish collectors fault you didn't bother using his service for the last few months.
The onus is on you to either use the service or cancel the service.
You ran up the bill and are liable for it..

So if the ESB cut your service off they can then charge for electricity which you might have used had they been providing the service?

Fat Nav

oxygen_temp wrote: »

eh as a company if I didnt provide the service for 3 months, and they didnt want to pay arrears for services not rendered I would think they are well within their rights.



The bins stay at the end of my drive always in the same place for collection. I don't move them, there isn't a gate by my drive and they are just at the very end of my drive. They have always been collected from this point previous months.

It does not matter where your bins are kept, it is up to you inform the company you no longer want the service , it is up to you to complain if your bin was not collected when it should of been collected.
You just don't want to pay the €100 you owe.

oxygen

Fat Nav wrote: »

It is not the rubbish collectors fault you didn't bother using his service for the last few months.
The onus is on you to either use the service or cancel the service.
You ran up the bill and are liable for it..

The bins were there to be collected. They are still there to be collected with rubbish in them.

PropJoe10

oxygen_temp wrote: »

eh as a company if I didnt provide the service for 3 months, and they didnt want to pay arrears for services not rendered I would think they are well within their rights.
.

You can interpret it as you wish, as I said. I have worked in this type of consumer rights area for many years though, and I'm giving you the interpretation that most companies would make of the situation, as you've explained it. If a customer does not ring to cancel and does not make payments, that does not mean that the account is cancelled. The reason you havent received the service is because your bill wasnt paid - not the fault of the company. The reason you are still being chased is because you didnt cancel it - again not the fault of the company. But as I said, you can take on board what I'm saying, or not. Makes no odds to me.

Fat Nav

foggy_lad wrote: »

So if the ESB cut your service off they can then charge for electricity which you might have used had they been providing the service?

The rubbish collector is charging for a service .. its not the company's fault if OP didn't bother using the service.


A better example would be if you joined a gym and signed up for a year membership , its up to you to use the gym either way you still have to pay for the service.

Cushie Butterfield

oxygen_temp wrote: »

The bins were there to be collected. They are still there to be collected with rubbish in them.

YOu need to look at the T&Cs of your agreement. The chances are that they won't empty bins if your account is in arrears. Cancellation procedure should also be explained.

PropJoe10

foggy_lad wrote: »

So if the ESB cut your service off they can then charge for electricity which you might have used had they been providing the service?

Thats a ridiculous comment. If you sign up for a monthly subscription service, dont cancel it, and then complain that you havent had the service because you havent paid your bill, whose fault is that?

oxygen

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

YOu need to look at the T&Cs of your agreement. The chances are that they won't empty bins if your account is in arrears. Cancellation procedure should also be explained.

Yea, thats not a bad idea, thanks. There isn't anything on their website for it, so I will call into the office tomorrow and see if they can provide be with a T&C's. This should make it a bit more clear if I cancel my services without paying for services not rendered.

P. Breathnach

Let's see if I have this straight: you were in arrears, and they withheld service by not emptying your bins.

You now want to cancel your arrangement with them, and they want payment of arrears. It seems reasonable that you pay any arrears up to the time they discontinued emptying your bins, and unreasonable if they require payment for the subsequent period.

foggy_lad

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's see if I have this straight: you were in arrears, and they withheld service by not emptying your bins.

You now want to cancel your arrangement with them, and they want payment of arrears. It seems reasonable that you pay any arrears up to the time they discontinued emptying your bins, and unreasonable if they require payment for the subsequent period.

The bulk of the €100 arrears are for the time after they stopped collecting the refuse and they have stated to the op that they will not cancel and will keep charging the monthly fee even though they are not providing any service and preventing the op from cancelling.

P. Breathnach

foggy_lad wrote: »

The bulk of the €100 arrears are for the time after they stopped collecting the refuse and they have stated to the op that they will not cancel and will keep charging the monthly fee even though they are not providing any service and preventing the op from cancelling.

That's how I was reading it.

oxygen

foggy_lad wrote: »

The bulk of the €100 arrears are for the time after they stopped collecting the refuse and they have stated to the op that they will not cancel and will keep charging the monthly fee even though they are not providing any service and preventing the op from cancelling.

Yea, that's it spot on, except its the entire €100 arrears is for the time after they stopped collecting it,not just the bulk. They stopped collecting it from the start of October. Its from this time to now (the end of January) that the €100 charge is for.

Ocean Blue

Duiske wrote: »

Having the bins at his house means nothing. I cancelled a service last Sept and the company has still not collected their bins. Are you suggesting they would be within their rights to charge me for having use of them since Sept ?

Your situation is different because you cancelled the service. Therefore the company cannot charge you because it was their error not to collect the bins. OP did not cancel the service.

dudara

OP - why did they stop collecting your rubbish? That's not coming across to me (apologies if I've missed something). Did they just stop, in which case why didn't you follow up? Have you been putting out the bins for collection? Or did they stop because you went into arrears.

Too many unknowns here for me at the moment.

You also need to read the T&Cs of you your contract

davo10

dudara wrote: »

OP - why did they stop collecting your rubbish? That's not coming across to me (apologies if I've missed something). Did they just stop, in which case why didn't you follow up? Have you been putting out the bins for collection? Or did they stop because you went into arrears.

Too many unknowns here for me at the moment.

You also need to read the T&Cs of you your contract

Also, were you physically leaving the bin out at the collection point each week for them to collect or was the bin full but left sitting at the side of your property?, if it was left out and not collected, did you phone to ask why? That would be the norm as we all get annoyed when refuse is not collected as agreed and begins to pile up .

oxygen

davo10 wrote: »

Also, were you physically leaving the bin out at the collection point each week for them to collect or was the bin full but left sitting at the side of your property?, if it was left out and not collected, did you phone to ask why? That would be the norm as we all get annoyed when refuse is not collected as agreed and begins to pile up .

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service. It's the companies policy to stop collecting the bins I'd your late with the payment.

davo10

oxygen_temp wrote: »

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service. It's the companies policy to stop collecting the bins I'd your late with the payment.

We have to leave our bins at our front gate for collection so that the refuse collectors know there is refuse to be collected, if we don't put it out, they don't go to the side of our house to collect it, so did you leave it out for collection.

Also is it a yearly agreement/contract irrespective of number of times bin is left out?

Last question, which happened first, you stopped making agreed payments or they stopped collecting? My mobile phone contract is for a monthly fee regardless of whether I use that much phone time, if I stop making payments they cut me off but I still have a contract for a certain duration.

P. Breathnach

oxygen_temp wrote: »

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service....

Is there any reason to disbelieve OP?

If a person posts here looking for advice, that advice is predicated on the information furnished. If OP has misinformed us, then the advice tendered is invalid for that particular situation. But we are not a court of law here, and it is not incumbent on us to drill down into a story and make a definitive ruling.

davo10

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is there any reason to disbelieve OP?

If a person posts here looking for advice, that advice is predicated on the information furnished. If OP has misinformed us, then the advice tendered is invalid for that particular situation. But we are not a court of law here, and it is not incumbent on us to drill down into a story and make a definitive ruling.

True P. But have you noticed that people post on here looking for validation of their own opinions and when it's about not paying for a service, they often leave out very important facts which may contradict their desired course of action.

Having a contract or agreement to pay monthly for a service is an important fact. If OP has a yearly/rolling contract and hasn't cancelled nor paid, wouldn't that be important to this discussion?

Not leaving the bin out for collection I would have thought is also important as the the company may not know there is refuse to be collected, important?

Which came first, not paying or not collecting, if OP has a rolling contract and hasn't cancelled, if he stopped paying first, why has he got an issue with them not collecting? Is this not important to this thread?

If it was " pay per lift " (which is the option the OP now wants to change to) the company would not be persuing OP so it's logical to conclude that there is some type of agreement, is it not?

Scenario 1:

OP has agreement to pay €20 per month for refuse collection until he cancels, he stops payment, doesn't put out a bin but agreement still in place and now they want their money.

Scenario 2:

OP has no agreement, he stops payment, they look for money, he tells them to bog off.

Two scenarios, two answers, the only way posters can know what to post is if OP elaborates.

Something else that might be important, is OP changing payment/lift option within the same company?, if yes then he has a problem, if no, less of a problem unless one company informs the other of people who have bills outstanding.

slimjimmc

oxygen_temp wrote: »

It was in the exact same place it's been collected from since I began the service. It's the companies policy to stop collecting the bins I'd your late with the payment.

The impression you were giving earlier was they just stopped out of the blue for no apparent reason. So, are you telling us that they stopped collecting because you were late with a payment?

oxygen_temp wrote: »

The bins were full, they just stopped collecting them.

What payments have you made since?

oxygen

slimjimmc wrote: »

The impression you were giving earlier was they just stopped out of the blue for no apparent reason. So, are you telling us that they stopped collecting because you were late with a payment?


What payments have you made since?

From my original post

oxygen_temp wrote: »

They have a monthly charge which you pay in person in the office (or you can direct debit). The last time I paid this was September, that was also the last time they collected the refuge (which is fine).

D3PO

the key is whats in the OP's T&C's with the providor but Id very much doubt the providor are not following the correct agreement they made with the OP.

For example Im with Greyhound. If my account doesnt have a positive balance they wont collect the bin. If I just ignored what was happening I would build up arrears wirth them regardless of them not collecting the bin as there is also an annual service charge which I would owe regardless of weathe rmy bin was collected or not.

Id suspect whatever way the OP's contract is setup that the monthly service charge is still due. My gut feeling is the OP is being correclty charged by the providor and the arrears are genuine.

oxygen

D3PO wrote: »

the key is whats in the OP's T&C's with the providor but Id very much doubt the providor are not following the correct agreement they made with the OP.

For example Im with Greyhound. If my account doesnt have a positive balance they wont collect the bin. If I just ignored what was happening I would build up arrears wirth them regardless of them not collecting the bin as there is also an annual service charge which I would owe regardless of weathe rmy bin was collected or not.

Id suspect whatever way the OP's contract is setup that the monthly service charge is still due. My gut feeling is the OP is being correclty charged by the providor and the arrears are genuine.

When you phrase it like that it does seem somewhat plausible. Still though paying €100 for a service not provided before they will let me cancel a service seems very unfair, especially since they are just going to incur a monthly charge without collecting any rubbish.

As advised I will see if its covered in the T&C's when I get to see them, and notify them in writing to cancel my service. Hopefully the ombudsman can be of some advice. My very last action will be to pay for refuse collection for bins sitting there with rubbish still in them.

This threads kind of doing circles, might be best to close it off. Thanks for any advice provided within.

Tippex

oxygen_temp wrote: »

When you phrase it like that it does seem somewhat plausible. Still though paying €100 for a service not provided before they will let me cancel a service seems very unfair, especially since they are just going to incur a monthly charge without collecting any rubbish.

As advised I will see if its covered in the T&C's when I get to see them, and notify them in writing to cancel my service. Hopefully the ombudsman can be of some advice. My very last action will be to pay for refuse collection for bins sitting there with rubbish still in them.

This threads kind of doing circles, might be best to close it off. Thanks for any advice provided within.

Just out of interest who is this ombudsman you are going to contact? if it is https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Investigation-Reports/Local-Authorities/Investigation-into-the-operation-by-Local-Authorities-of-Waiver-Schemes-for-Refuse-Collection-Charges/Waste-Collection-Systems-and-Charges.html I'm not 100% sure they will offer anything as I think (I might be wrong) they only deal with local authority collections and not private companies (as I said I may be wrong)

oxygen

Tippex wrote: »

Just out of interest who is this ombudsman you are going to contact? if it is https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Investigation-Reports/Local-Authorities/Investigation-into-the-operation-by-Local-Authorities-of-Waiver-Schemes-for-Refuse-Collection-Charges/Waste-Collection-Systems-and-Charges.html I'm not 100% sure they will offer anything as I think (I might be wrong) they only deal with local authority collections and not private companies (as I said I may be wrong)

Crap, yea that's who I was going to contact.I'll call them tomorrow and see if they can advise who would I should contact

P. Breathnach

Why complicate things? Pay them what you owe them (which I think is rather less than they say you owe them) and tell them that you will pay no more. Remind them to take their bins away.

oxygen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why complicate things? Pay them what you owe them (which I think is rather less than they say you owe them) and tell them that you will pay no more. Remind them to take their bins away.

They won't take a penny less than €100 though before I can close my account. I'd be happy to pay 20 or 30 quid to finish the whole thing. I asked if I could pay a down payment to close the account (and stop the monthly charges) but they want the full amount.

P. Breathnach

oxygen_temp wrote: »

They won't take a penny less than €100 though before I can close my account. I'd be happy to pay 20 or 30 quid to finish the whole thing. I asked if I could pay a down payment to close the account (and stop the monthly charges) but they want the full amount.

Why is that a problem? If you believe that you don't owe it, don't pay it. Tell them in writing that you are not going to pay, and suggest that they take their bins away.

foggy_lad

Sign up with new operator then empty the full bins into the new bins and leave the old bins outside your gate for collection, ring the company and tell them their bions are available for collection and that if they are still there in a week you will be getting the council litter warden to take them as litter.