Buying house with sitting tenants

huntsman77 · 11-02-2014 3:37pm #1

Hi was looking at a house that's coming up in an auction its the banks that's selling it . Thing is there is tennant's in the house no leese but the are there almost 3 years which I know means the would be entitled to 3 months notice that's grand if the leave solicitor said could cost a lot of time and money if the won't leave I want the house to move in to asap . nobody seems to know anything bout these people house has got very run down looking. Any one any experience or advice thanks

djimi · 11-02-2014 3:44pm

You can make vacant possession a condition of the sale, but ultimately its up to the seller to ensure that this happens. The tenants are entitled to their full notice period, so unless the seller can give them an incentive to leave earlier then I wouldnt be expecting to be moving in in the next few weeks.

D3PO · 11-02-2014 3:46pm

first thing of note if your getting a mortgage to bid in this auction then forget it. You wont be able to drawdown without vacant posession of the property so bidding and winning will cost you if thats the situation.

regarding notice that are in whats know as a part 4 tenancy so yes you moving in is a valid reason to give notice (for which they are entitled to 56 days and not 3 months as you suggest) based on being there less than 3 years.

However if they refuse to move out you could be looking at upwards of a year to get them out if they ignore eviction proceedings.

There are something im not clear on though and that is could you make a PRTB complaint as they are not your tenants, id check that as normally you coudnt do that so potentially you would ahve to register the tenancy with the PRTB to then make a complaint !!

secondly have you had clarification regarding thier deposit (who has it and who is expected to return it to them) clearly somebody has it and Im sure they will want to know who is returning it prior to being in any way coperative about moving out when notice is served anyway.

D3PO · 11-02-2014 3:46pm

djimi wrote: »

You can make vacant possession a condition of the sale, but ultimately its up to the seller to ensure that this happens. The tenants are entitled to their full notice period, so unless the seller can give them an incentive to leave earlier then I wouldnt be expecting to be moving in in the next few weeks.

its an auction property from a bank so thats not going to happen.

djimi · 11-02-2014 3:48pm

D3PO wrote: »

its an auction property from a bank so thats not going to happen.

Which part?

OhHiMark · 11-02-2014 3:49pm

You'll probably have to buy the house with money, not beer.

D3PO · 11-02-2014 3:53pm

djimi wrote: »

Which part?

making vacant posession a condition of sale. Thats not going to happen on an auction property.

huntsman77 · 11-02-2014 3:55pm

No mortgage would be a cash buyer and thanks never thought of the deposit guess its a gamble don't want to be a landlord and don't want to be buying a house and spend 12 months and a lot of money to move in to . on the other hand could very nice people and be no hassle just don't know .

djimi · 11-02-2014 3:55pm

D3PO wrote: »

making vacant posession a condition of sale. Thats not going to happen on an auction property.

Cool, should have copped that!

Victor · 11-02-2014 6:36pm

huntsman77 wrote: »

Hi was looking at a house that's coming up in an auction

As it is an auction, you are largely in a take it or leave it situation. Talk to your solicitor and explain the problems before bidding.

iguana · 12-02-2014 8:02pm

djimi wrote: »

You can make vacant possession a condition of the sale, but ultimately its up to the seller to ensure that this happens.

In a normal bidding situation how does that work? Do you exchange contractions with a condition of vacant possession before completion? Or do you just wait for the house to become vacant while never being assured of the purchase once it does?

Marcusm · 12-02-2014 8:08pm

iguana wrote: »

In a normal bidding situation how does that work? Do you exchange contractions with a condition of vacant possession before completion? Or do you just wait for the house to become vacant while never being assured of the purchase once it does?

You read the contracts which are provided before the auction, establish whether vacant possession is offered as a condition of sale and decide whether you want to bid based on the answer.

iguana · 12-02-2014 8:58pm

Sorry, I meant in an non-auction sale where the house has sitting tenants. I'm finding a lot of houses I've looked at have tenant at present.

Marcusm · 12-02-2014 11:19pm

iguana wrote: »

Sorry, I meant in an non-auction sale where the house has sitting tenants. I'm finding a lot of houses I've looked at have tenant at present.

You insist on vacant possession, if the vendor fails to deliver this, the contract can (after efforts are made) be terminated.

Victor · 13-02-2014 1:42am

Marcusm wrote: »

You insist on vacant possession, if the vendor fails to deliver this, the contract can (after efforts are made) be terminated.

That's the problem with an auction though, you can't insist on anything, you are bidding on the contract offered, there is no negotiation (unless the vendor is willing).

Marcusm · 13-02-2014 1:58am

Victor wrote: »

That's the problem with an auction though, you can't insist on anything, you are bidding on the contract offered, there is no negotiation (unless the vendor is willing).

True; and a point which I commented on in the prior post. Then iguana mentioned that he, as opposed to OP, was concerned with a non auction situation! It's late.

sawdoubters · 13-02-2014 2:59am

are you sure they are not sitting tenants

you will not be able to remove them

they may wreck the place before they leave

I would get a solicitor

sligoface · 13-02-2014 4:57am

Why bother if the house is run down and has tenants and you don't want to be a landlord? You'll be most likely giving yourself a headache and costing yourself money.

huntsman77 · 18-02-2014 9:57pm

Hi got solicitors advice and he said could go either way you get a very reasonably priced house tennant's could move on when there notice is up or could take 12 months and up to 15000 legal fees and house could be wrecked. its only house in that area that I'd have interest in but don't know if its worth that thanks for all comments so far.

the_syco · 19-02-2014 12:37am

huntsman77 wrote: »

Hi got solicitors advice and he said could go either way you get a very reasonably priced house tennant's could move on when there notice is up or could take 12 months and up to 15000 legal fees and house could be wrecked. its only house in that area that I'd have interest in but don't know if its worth that thanks for all comments so far.

Chances are it won't get sold. If this happens, perhaps approach the owner, and offer X amount and you make the vacant possession a condition of the sale. I'm thinking that the owner couldn't get rid of the tenants, and thus the property is now for auction.

huntsman77 · 19-02-2014 8:29am

Yea actually its the bank selling it I agree with you look for vacant possession if not sold safest way .

noah45 · 06-01-2015 7:55pm

In same situation here.

goat2 · 04-03-2017 6:02pm

D3PO wrote: »

first thing of note if your getting a mortgage to bid in this auction then forget it. You wont be able to drawdown without vacant posession of the property so bidding and winning will cost you if thats the situation.

regarding notice that are in whats know as a part 4 tenancy so yes you moving in is a valid reason to give notice (for which they are entitled to 56 days and not 3 months as you suggest) based on being there less than 3 years.

However if they refuse to move out you could be looking at upwards of a year to get them out if they ignore eviction proceedings.

There are something im not clear on though and that is could you make a PRTB complaint as they are not your tenants, id check that as normally you coudnt do that so potentially you would ahve to register the tenancy with the PRTB to then make a complaint !!

secondly have you had clarification regarding thier deposit (who has it and who is expected to return it to them) clearly somebody has it and Im sure they will want to know who is returning it prior to being in any way coperative about moving out when notice is served anyway.

If I buy a house with a five yr sitting agreement which is coming to an end in a few months, and I have just bought this as my home and principal residence,
The agreement with the tenant was not with me but a person who sold on the house and not with me, so have I a right to give notice on this person as I am renting also and need to move from rented accommodation to a property I am now the owner of, What are my rights

jimmycrackcorm · 04-03-2017 6:25pm

goat2 wrote:

If I buy a house with a five yr sitting agreement which is coming to an end in a few months, and I have just bought this as my home and principal residence, The agreement with the tenant was not with me but a person who sold on the house and not with me, so have I a right to give notice on this person as I am renting also and need to move from rented accommodation to a property I am now the owner of, What are my rights

The previous owner should have given notice to the tenants to move out due to sale. You don't want to become their landlord so that you can absolve yourself if you go and change the locks.

newacc2015 · 04-03-2017 6:57pm

OP I would not buy this house. I think there is something dodgy about selling it at auction. I think they probably using buyer beware for their advantage. The title could be dodgy and they hoping at auction no one notices.

athtrasna · 04-03-2017 7:14pm

goat2 wrote: »

If I buy a house with a five yr sitting agreement which is coming to an end in a few months, and I have just bought this as my home and principal residence,
The agreement with the tenant was not with me but a person who sold on the house and not with me, so have I a right to give notice on this person as I am renting also and need to move from rented accommodation to a property I am now the owner of, What are my rights

Are you buying for cash? A bank won't give a mortgage without vacant possession?

Samuel T. Cogley · 04-03-2017 7:35pm

You've bought it with the tenants in situ? I assume they have Part IV rights if they've been there 5 years, you may have to wait until 2020 before you can evict them. This really should have covered this off with your solicitor during purchase.

Hopefully I'm wrong and

a) Part IV tenancies can't survive an ownership change or
b) the agreement is outwith the RTA 2004.

05-03-2017 11:10am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You've bought it with the tenants in situ? I assume they have Part IV rights if they've been there 5 years, you may have to wait until 2020 before you can evict them. This really should have covered this off with your solicitor during purchase.

Hopefully I'm wrong and

a) Part IV tenancies can't survive an ownership change or
b) the agreement is outwith the RTA 2004.

He can give notice the minute he takes ownership that he wants the house back for his own use and they will have a few months to get out. The issue is if they won't leave but officially they can be given notice to vacate as soon as he owns the house.

johndaman66 · 05-03-2017 11:45am

the_syco wrote: »

Chances are it won't get sold. If this happens, perhaps approach the owner, and offer X amount and you make the vacant possession a condition of the sale. I'm thinking that the owner couldn't get rid of the tenants, and thus the property is now for auction.

I don't particularly make sense of this comment the_syco. If the owner had trouble getting rid of the tenants and thus decided to go to auction how would it be the case that the owner then could all of a sudden get rid of the tenants after it fails to sell at auction. While I see the angle you are approaching from why encourage somebody to waste their time, energy and potentially money (surveys, contracting solicitors etc.) if you believe there is trouble getting the tenants out.

johndaman66 · 05-03-2017 11:48am

newacc2015 wrote: »

OP I would not buy this house. I think there is something dodgy about selling it at auction. I think they probably using buyer beware for their advantage. The title could be dodgy and they hoping at auction no one notices.

Maybe your hypothetically speaking newacc2015 but bear in mind the OP started the thread in February 2014. I'd imagine things have moved on since.

johndaman66 · 05-03-2017 12:09pm

My own situation when I was house hunting back in 2013/ 2014. As the cookie crumbled many of the properties I viewed had sitting tenants. I was buying from savings rather than taking out a mortgage so the fact that there was sitting tenants would not absolutely have prevented me from proceeding with a sale on any of them.

In general the properties with sitting tenants may not have being quite as clean as the vacant/ owner occupied properties, but none were in dire straights. However, in general they did tend to have significantly lower asking prices than houses that were vacant and most especially owner occupied houses (like for like properties). There were a few rented properties I viewed that bucked the trend though and were just as clean or cleaner than owner occupied/ vacant houses and some properties with sitting tenants where the asking price was on a par with vacant/ owner occupied properties.

If I did rule out rented properties I would have ruled out a large proportion of the properties I viewed (would have being no point viewing them I suppose). I did almost go sale agreed on a property with sitting tenants. In that case I met the tenants, the Estate Agent left me with them, they gave me tea and biscuits and were nice friendly respectable people who assured me they were moving out by a certain date in the near future so it left some fair degree of comfort in my mind. In the end I didn't go sale agreed on that property for a separate reason. Not that its here nor there but I ended up going sale agreed on and buying a vacant property in the end.

the_syco · 06-03-2017 4:33am

johndaman66 wrote: »

the_syco wrote: »

Chances are it won't get sold. If this happens, perhaps approach the owner, and offer X amount and you make the vacant possession a condition of the sale. I'm thinking that the owner couldn't get rid of the tenants, and thus the property is now for auction.

I don't particularly make sense of this comment the_syco. If the owner had trouble getting rid of the tenants and thus decided to go to auction how would it be the case that the owner then could all of a sudden get rid of the tenants after it fails to sell at auction. While I see the angle you are approaching from why encourage somebody to waste their time, energy and potentially money (surveys, contracting solicitors etc.) if you believe there is trouble getting the tenants out.

Chances are that the bank has forced the owner to sell, and the owners selling with the tenant still there. If the owner didn't sell, the owner will have to continue to pay the mortgage. Offering the owner X amount on vacant possession may encourage him to get rid of the clients.

Oh, and you're quoting something I said three years ago.

goat2 wrote: »

If I buy a house with a five yr sitting agreement which is coming to an end in a few months, and I have just bought this as my home and principal residence

If the lease was coming to end "in a few months", why not sell then? Why would the tenant leave? Have they even been paying rent? It may take you a year to evict them.

davo10 · 06-03-2017 8:59am

Goat2, getting a tenant out will be a test of resolve, patience and finances. Particularly one who has been there for 5 years and may have kids in school/made friends in the area.

Theoretically you would be able to give notice that you intend to live there, in reality they can ignore the notice and literally stop paying rent. You may then have to go to RTB and even court to get an eviction. If the owner wants to sell, tell him/her that you will only buy with vacant possession, you can be sure that every other buyer is insisting on it.

johndaman66 · 07-03-2017 11:28pm

the_syco wrote: »

Chances are that the bank has forced the owner to sell, and the owners selling with the tenant still there. If the owner didn't sell, the owner will have to continue to pay the mortgage. Offering the owner X amount on vacant possession may encourage him to get rid of the clients.

Okay so your approaching it from the point of view that if the OP were to approach the owner after the auction that owner may level with the OP and tell them the bank forced them to go to auction, not wasting anymore of their time?... assuming you do mean clients there as opposed to tenants?

the_syco wrote: »

Oh, and you're quoting something I said three years ago.

I know. I made the comment from the point of view of anybody reading the thread who currently found themselves in a similar situation....

the_syco · 08-03-2017 4:09am

johndaman66 wrote: »

Okay so your approaching it from the point of view that if the OP were to approach the owner after the auction that owner may level with the OP and tell them the bank forced them to go to auction, not wasting anymore of their time?... assuming you do mean clients there as opposed to tenants?

The owner may not care much about the house. Giving them an answer to their financial troubles may incentive the LL to get evict/bribe the tenants to leave.

Buying house with sitting tenants

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