Catholicism in Ireland

sellon

Hi all,

I often browse through the Catholic Answer Forum mostly because its at least more active than here but I'm always surprised at the wide variety of so called "Catholics" there are.

On a thread about the new anti-homosexuality laws in Uganda many expressed delight and broadly welcomed it as a sign of God's Will (remember this is a site for so called "Catholics"). Even those who didn't agree with it's vulgarity still expressed a hidden joy that at least there are now laws to deal with these "immoral and corrupt" homosexuals.

Here, this type of far right Catholicism is broadly non existent, or is it? How right or left are we?

IMO Ireland has a quiet liberal CC as does Western Europe in general but there really is such a wide variety of Catholics globally from those who would boarder with fundamentals and then those who look forward to women priests etc.

Just wondering where people think we fit into all this?

Peregrinus

Well, it's in the nature of a truly Catholic - i.e. universal - church that it's going to contain a huge variety of people. And, it follows, a huge variety of positions, beliefs, values, etc. It would be more than surprising if all Catholics agreed on everything - it would be worrying!

On the particular issue you raise, I don't think you have to look to Uganda to find a position that seems almost incomrehensible to most of us. In our own country a generation ago - that is to say,within the lifetime of many people still living - there would have been significant support for laws criminalising homosexual behaviour.

As far as Catholic identity goes, this is very much a third-rate issue. (Which is not to say that it's not important as a matter of morality or justice, of course.) Core Catholic beliefs are set out in the creed and other great statements of faith; they don;t mention sexuality at all (unless you count the virgin birth). A much fuller account of Catholic teaching does include teachings about the homosexuality - if you plough through the Catechism it is mentioned, but you have to get to paragraph 2,358 (out of 2,865) before you get to the first mention, so clearly not a central concern. (If it receives a lot of attention today, that's probably because we live in a sex-obsessed society.) But the question of whether homosexuality should be illegal is not a question of the morality of homosexuality, but a question about whether, and to what extent, the role of law is to enforce morality. In other words, it's a question about the exercise of civil power and the prudential judgments that must be made when exercising it. And the catechism says nothing at all about this - wisely, since making prudential judgements of this kind is the vocation of legislators, not bishops.

In short, you can - at least formally - hold almost any position at all on this question and still legitimately call yourself Catholic, since it's not something that goes to Catholic identity. And, similarly, you can criticise almost any position that someone else holds.

As to where Ireland fits in, I cautiously suggest that (a) the Irish Catholic church is probably more diverse than we think it is, but (b) the centre-of-gravity, so to speak, is probably a bit to the left of middle-of-the-road on issues connected with sex and sexuality, but a bit to the right on issues connected with societal justice.

lmaopml

sellon wrote: »

Hi all,

I often browse through the Catholic Answer Forum mostly because its at least more active than here but I'm always surprised at the wide variety of so called "Catholics" there are.

On a thread about the new anti-homosexuality laws in Uganda many expressed delight and broadly welcomed it as a sign of God's Will (remember this is a site for so called "Catholics"). Even those who didn't agree with it's vulgarity still expressed a hidden joy that at least there are now laws to deal with these "immoral and corrupt" homosexuals.

Here, this type of far right Catholicism is broadly non existent, or is it? How right or left are we?

I'd like to see that thread...Could you provide a link?



I don't think there is really such a thing as a 'far right' Catholicism or 'far left' Catholicism. There is simply the Church and it's whole membership from age old to now, made up of well 'people' who are believers all over the world, not just in Ireland, but very many places - and it doesn't really change with the times - it does change and grow in understanding no doubt as it learns and grows, but perhaps not quite in tune with, and perhaps exactly the way one person from another would wish it to.

It get's a lot of flak for that, because everybody loves to 'make things better'...and so too do people who understand the faith but live in today.


However, there may very well be many who would like to brand an individual as either liberal or not. You must have that 'check' mark. That's not anything at all like what the Church is all about, it's not about 'check marks'.. you are a Catholic if you know you are in constant need of Christ, and want to know him more every day. ( Imo)

IMO Ireland has a quiet liberal CC as does Western Europe in general but there really is such a wide variety of Catholics globally from those who would boarder with fundamentals and then those who look forward to women priests etc.

Just wondering where people think we fit into all this?

I suppose it depends on what one thinks they are looking forward to. The Church isn't about politics, it's not merely about the 'hot' topics that is only 'news'...it's at heart for those who love it, being involved with being Christ's hands and feet and mouth to those with wounds, who need to be carried, or who need to hear his word, and I believe that vast majority of good Catholics are and will remain unsung. Just like the way we think we're really modern now..and we've really lept into the future and left the oldies behind with their very shady pasts etc. so on.....because they were all baddies really.. The vast majority will live and die - and probably become tomorrows idiots too.

duckman!!

lmaopml wrote: »

The Church isn't about politics

lmaopml

duckman!! wrote: »

Well, not politics as you know it duckman..if it were merely about politics, and not just 'people', than she would be squirming to comply with popular demand, and not so easily be seen as the 'latest big baddie of the western world' according to popular sources in the news etc. and so on......that's logical.

I'm a Catholic anyway, and I will be till the day I die. All I will say, is that it does not mean I hate, and it never did teach me to do that...quite the opposit it taught me to forgive mostly, and to know myself better than just on the surface.

Geomy

Why not accept, rather than forgive ?

lmaopml

Accept what Geomy?

Geomy

You say your religion thought you to forgive.
Wouldn't it be better to accept ?
Accept people, places, and things as they are

lmaopml

So does that mean that Christ died to 'accept' everything, and not to show us what it means be true? No?

'Acceptance' is the new religion? How far will your 'Acceptance' go before you say something is way off?

He never said, 'If you love me, why don't you do what I say..'? I'm afraid He did say that, loud and clear..among so many other things - it's the reason why so many love him today because their ears have been opened.

Does that give a person free reign to 'hate' - certainly not! It does give them the ambition to live a life for others, however contrary this may sound or dim or any other name one can imagine. It means they follow Christ and not the 'Christ' - the one that the world says Jesus has morphed into because well it suits right now, it's less embarrassing as regards human rights versus religious freedom etc. etc. so on....

It's a pile of ****. I follow Christ - that's it. I don't hate anybody, and I'll probably live like many others being branded as a 'hater' or 'dim' or 'insert any other insult' - I don't care - I follow Christ, and I want to do this as a 'human right'. I'm Catholic. I have faith, and it's not built on sand.

sellon

A congregation that boosts 1 billion members will have a variety of opinions alright but it doesn't mean that all opinions are valid and correct, just because they are claimed to be rooted in the same Creed.

We have such a small window on God from which to base our Church. Christ spent just three years in active ministry and what was recorded from that is still very small however the basic message that rings clear throughout the Gospels is Love, tolerance, forgiveness, and prayer. Fast forward two thousand years and as we carry on that very same mission then we must continue in the same spirit as was begun, Love one another.

People are side tracked so so easily and that is why today we have an absolute obsession with sex and the church's teaching on it. Even as children die of hunger and poverty is rife the loudest elements within Church still continually waffle on about how how our sexual morals have sunken to new depths. So much time is wasted on issues that did not concern Christ when he walked the earth, but why do we ignore the key teachings for the sake of sexual morality.

Mary Macelese recently referred to Irish gay priests as the "elephant in the room" within the Irish Catholic Church. Again another example of a fascination of all things sexual. Surly the only reasons for concern within the Church in Ireland and globally should be poverty and the decline of active faith rather than the sexual preferences of our pastors.

I just can't understand how people who say they Love Christ and His Church can then in the same breath so quickly condemn their fellow Christians as sinful and unholy on the basis of their life choices.

I do believe that many in the "Traditional" side have such a distorted view of real Catholicism. The kind of people who are more interested in the "bells and smells" rather than poverty and hunger. Everything we do as Christians should be done in service of each other for the greater Glory of God. Walking in companionship with Christ who didn't condemn, only Love. Such a pity that quiet a large fringe within the Church are too busy concerning themselves with irrelevant matters and forgetting what really is most important.

Heres the CAF link for those interested: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=846540

Doctor DooM

lmaopml wrote: »

Well, not politics as you know it duckman..if it were merely about politics, and not just 'people', than she would be squirming to comply with popular demand, and not so easily be seen as the 'latest big baddie of the western world' according to popular sources in the news etc. and so on......that's logical.

To say the Roman Catholic Church is not about politics is to simply ignore reality. Especially from someone in Ireland, but even if you weren't- if they're not about politics, why was the Vatican recently described by one agent of UNICEF as being something like a "problematic force" (I'll dig out the link when I'm not on mobile) in the UN? Why would they make trouble for human rights bills etc if they were apolitical?

lmaopml

Doctor DooM wrote: »

To say the Roman Catholic Church is not about politics is to simply ignore reality. Especially from someone in Ireland, but even if you weren't- if they're not about politics, why was the Vatican recently described by one agent of UNICEF as being something like a "problematic force" (I'll dig out the link when I'm not on mobile) in the UN? Why would they make trou

ble for human rights bills etc if they were apolitical?

I don't think it should take you too long to 'dig it out' Doctor - it's international news apparently that the UN has decided that Catholics are not welcome. According to some person who speaks for them - we should just not be Catholic at all - just because well, ye know somebody who is put in front of a speaker wants to keep their job...

It's actually cringe worthy - the UN could do so much good if they had a pair at all - and the few choose to cause so much harm who are apparently the popular guys, when they could be a force for good and not a divisive force.

Who are the UN declaring this 'stand' on? Their 'enemies' - well, they could have done that a long time ago, but failed to do so... now they target me - a simple Catholic. They think we should just 'not be Catholic' - they so very misunderstand us that they think everybody 'does' politics.

It's really sad tbh that they could do good, could concentrate on 'doing good' but choose to target, and apparently even the UN is political - and will send out some girl to speak with a monotone voice about big things..because the guys who sent her out didn't have the courage to be on youtube representing the magnificent UN.


Meh -

PopePalpatine

lmaopml wrote: »

I don't think it should take you too long to 'dig it out' Doctor - it's international news apparently that the UN has decided that Catholics are not welcome. According to some person who speaks for them - we should just not be Catholic at all - just because well, ye know somebody who is put in front of a speaker wants to keep their job...

wat.

Where did you get that from, "Alive!"? Somehow you've scrambled up a condemnation of the Church's obstruction of justice into a condemnation of lay Catholics.

You need to get over your persecution complex.

lazybones32

sellon wrote: »

Hi all,

I often browse through the Catholic Answer Forum mostly because its at least more active than here but I'm always surprised at the wide variety of so called "Catholics" there are.

On a thread about the new anti-homosexuality laws in Uganda many expressed delight and broadly welcomed it as a sign of God's Will (remember this is a site for so called "Catholics"). Even those who didn't agree with it's vulgarity still expressed a hidden joy that at least there are now laws to deal with these "immoral and corrupt" homosexuals.

Here, this type of far right Catholicism is broadly non existent, or is it? How right or left are we?

IMO Ireland has a quiet liberal CC as does Western Europe in general but there really is such a wide variety of Catholics globally from those who would boarder with fundamentals and then those who look forward to women priests etc.

Just wondering where people think we fit into all this?

I was reading this Gospel passage today and I think it is relevant to your topic:
"Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a big fishing net let down into the sea, in which every kind of fish has been caught. When the net is full, it is dragged ashore. Then they sit down and gather the good fish in buckets, but throw the worthless ones away." Mt 13: 47-48

The aim of the Church isn't to make its members Right-Wing or Left-Wing, liberal or Conservative; the aim of the Church is to "catch people" and introduce them to Christ who will help transform, renew and save the individual. I'm guilty of wishing that the Church was near perfect but this goes against God's obvious design for salvation...he wants His Church to be filled with sinners, regardless of political persuasion.

Marhay70

lazybones32 wrote: »

I was reading this Gospel passage today and I think it is relevant to your topic:
"Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a big fishing net let down into the sea, in which every kind of fish has been caught. When the net is full, it is dragged ashore. Then they sit down and gather the good fish in buckets, but throw the worthless ones away." Mt 13: 47-48

A little off topic I know but this seems to be rather out of keeping with the general concept of Christian teaching. i.e. there are no lost causes, nobody is worthless.

lazybones32

Marhay70 wrote: »

A little off topic I know but this seems to be rather out of keeping with the general concept of Christian teaching. i.e. there are no lost causes, nobody is worthless.

It is one of the truths of Christianity and is often repeated: there will be Judgement and some will not be worthy to enter the Kingdom. "...when the net is full..." aka the end of time.
We all have the great hope while alive but don't delude yourself into thinking that everyone will be saved.

J C

lazybones32 wrote: »

It is one of the truths of Christianity and is often repeated: there will be Judgement and some will not be worthy to enter the Kingdom. "...when the net is full..." aka the end of time.
We all have the great hope while alive but don't delude yourself into thinking that everyone will be saved.

Please don't let anybody delude themselves that they will be Saved by their own works ... only by Jesus Christ (and Him crucified) are we Saved ... and we each have been bought with a terrible price ... the incarnation and death of God on a cross.

lazybones32

J C wrote: »

Please don't let anybody delude themselves that they will be Saved by their own works ... only by Jesus Christ (and Him crucified) are we Saved ... and we each have been bought with a terrible price ... the incarnation and death of God on a cross.

If I understand you correctly, you have a misconception regarding the Catholic Teaching on Salvation but I agree that Christ, by his life, death and Resurrection has set us free. Eternal life is knowing God.