Pssst! Houses - they're cool, and scarce....Oh Yeah!ssshhh!

Stavros Murphy

Anyone noticed that the dreaded "P" word is slowly, quietly sneaking back up the cool-wall? "Pruhperteyh - have you got yours? Will you miss the boat? Have you painted the sitting room magnolia yet?"

My own addled guess is that the old adage that the only real money is in property is pretty much true - and right now, a lot of big investors are sitting on a lot of cheap property. So, it's needs to become ok again to tell the Murphys that you're considering buying a flat in Ringsend. Or whisper to Pat down the pub that there seems to be good value to be had in Donnybrook. God knows, there's money to be a makin. Can't be having these crappy prices for much longer, dontcha know.

So, good folk of Awful Hoors, sorry, After Hours, is your foot on the ladder yet? Or are you hanging onto the bottom rung by your pinkies? Or is the bottom rung so far out of sight that you can barely see it through the flaps of your tent?

I reckon they're saddling up the horses for another ride. I hope to fcuk we don't have to follow with a shovvel again, dealing with the shyte.

Frank Lee Midere

That bubble has already bust.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Oh I'm on the ladder alright, my problem is trying to stay on the fcuking ladder!

kneemos

Don't get this anti property bubble bias.Who cares unless you're buying or selling which in both cased it's a good thing.

Stavros Murphy

But, but, there's property supplements again...TV shows that are non-ironically suggesting how to improve your house if you are selling it(no more mentions of "a can of petrol and a match", either) - there's even adds for "Mortgages"

-"Are you a millionaire? Do you not need the money? Talk to us, we can help! All you need is a 100% deposit, have a father who used to own De Beers, be able to juggle five bottles of Heineken while singing "Give me sunshine" and bingo -you're a new mortgage holder! Waay better than them old type too!"

Deffo green shoots.. I think it's great. Probably.

Rent prices are mental and it's cheaper to buy than to rent for a lot of people.

The house next door to me rented for €1,650 and was snapped up within a week. I don't live anywhere particularly special.

I've had my foot on the property ladder for 10 years. My current mortgage will be paid when I'm 47 I think. I'm sorry I got on it when I did tbh as I'm in negative equity, ah well. My pension kicks in when I'm 50 so I'm just going to sit around in my gaf eating chips and smoking weed when that happens. Be grand.

Stavros Murphy

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That bubble has already bust.

Thank you, Father Stone.

Filibuster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rent prices are mental and it's cheaper to buy than to rent for a lot of people.

The house next door to me rented for €1,650 and was snapped up within a week. I don't live anywhere particularly special.

I've had my foot on the property ladder for 10 years. My current mortgage will be paid when I'm 47 I think. I'm sorry I got on it when I did tbh as I'm in negative equity, ah well. My pension kicks in when I'm 50 so I'm just going to sit around in my gaf eating chips and smoking weed when that happens. Be grand.

Bee's are grand hibernating this time of year too. I'm grand too.

The Backwards Man

I was lucky that a few deals went the right way for me, and I didn't get in over my head, so was able to get my mortgage paid off after a couple of years. Cleared my car loan last week too. Takes a hell of a lot of the pressure off every month, that's for sure.

In my parents' time only people with money went to the banks to get mortgages or car loans, and they were the wise ones. Debt is a killer. Anyone not already in it, stay the fcuk out of it.

Legs.Eleven

I haven't decided where I'd like to live permanently yet but when I do, I might buy.

Stavros Murphy

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I haven't decided where I'd like to live permanently yet but when I do, I might buy.

So we'll put you down as a "maybe" so? Or is that tying it down too much?

Legs.Eleven

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

So we'll put you down as a "maybe" so? Or is that tying it down too much?

Put me down for a half dozen.

Jonkenji

Double dip recession

Don't we still owe like €200 billion or something, and growing?

Stavros Murphy

Jonkenji wrote: »

Double dip recession

Don't we still owe like €200 billion or something, and growing?

Be grand- cover them all in magnolia and beige carpet - go like hot cakes.

Muise...

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I haven't decided where I'd like to live permanently yet but when I do, I might buy.

me too. A house would be nice and all - if I had the money - but where would I put it?

and right now, a lot of big investors are sitting on a lot of cheap property.

If the only people able to buy are "investors" due to the difficult mortgage requirements at the moment, then they are likely to be left holding the baby.

The problem isn't people willing to buy, it's banks willing to lend.

Stavros Murphy

Muise... wrote: »

me too. A house would be nice and all - if I had the money - but where would I put it?

You could keep it in your tent - they always go up in value and don't take up much room. Bang it in behind the porta-potty.

Plates

Jaysus lads. How many threads on property prices are we going to have? No amount of moaning on here will halt the march of the free market.

Wabbit Ears

Its really already started in a big way in dublin and why wouldnt it? The government put in place absolutly zero safeguards after the last crash. There was no changes in the transparency of bids with estate agents for example, they can still make phantom bidding wars to their hearts content to completly artificailly raise the prices of houses.

But why would the governmnet put in safeguards, they want the unsustainable over-paid jobs in construction, they want high tax intake from purchases, the property bubble looked fantastic on the books and they want that back.

Stavros Murphy

Plates wrote: »

Jaysus lads. How many threads on property prices are we going to have? No amount of moaning on here will halt the march of the free market.

Feck that, I'm not moaning. I long to have a good old Boom. This bust shyte is dull as fcuk. I have 42 gallons of magnolia on order from B&Q and a massive brush. Bring on the rise.

Mongfinder General

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Its really already started in a big way in dublin and why wouldnt it? The government put in place absolutly zero safeguards after the last crash. There was no changes in the transparency of bids with estate agents for example, they can still make phantom bidding wars to their hearts content to completly artificailly raise the prices of houses.

But why would the governmnet put in safeguards, they want the unsustainable over-paid jobs in construction, they want high tax intake from purchases, the property bubble looked fantastic on the books and they want that back.

How dare you tell the truth. The rest of us are supposed to believe that 400k for a duplex in Balbriggan is great value.

Muise...

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

You could keep it in your tent - they always go up in value and don't take up much room. Bang it in behind the porta-potty.

ah that's where it is! I've been looking all over my 1:1 scale model of Ireland.

hatrickpatrick

I'm convinced that Irish people's obsession with property is a historical ghost of the fact that in the not too distant past, we either couldn't own it or were persecuted for owning it. As such, I believe it's deeply ingrained in the Irish psyche and an economic crisis lasting a decade won't be enough to undo something with roots that are hundreds of years old.

Stavros Murphy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm convinced that Irish people's obsession with property is a historical ghost of the fact that in the not too distant past, we either couldn't own it or were persecuted for owning it.

God made the world, but seaweed made that field.

It runs deep.

Frank Lee Midere

Plates wrote: »

Jaysus lads. How many threads on property prices are we going to have? No amount of moaning on here will halt the march of the free market.

Lol. If there was a free market in property there would be 200k repossessions and prices would be 50% lower.

Muise...

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm convinced that Irish people's obsession with property is a historical ghost of the fact that in the not too distant past, we either couldn't own it or were persecuted for owning it. As such, I believe it's deeply ingrained in the Irish psyche and an economic crisis lasting a decade won't be enough to undo something with roots that are hundreds of years old.

I don't believe in ghosts, or in using history of poverty as an excuse for contemporary greed.

anncoates

I don't pay much heed as I'm not buying or selling a house but it's always amusing to see a certain type of poster losing the plot at any mention of price rises.

The type of poster that wants to buy a house and is convinced that it's only a dastardly group of interfering influences that's stopping the market from being able to deliver semi detached houses in South Dublin for 500 euro forever.

kupus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm convinced that Irish people's obsession with property is a historical ghost of the fact that in the not too distant past, we either couldn't own it or were persecuted for owning it. As such, I believe it's deeply ingrained in the Irish psyche and an economic crisis lasting a decade won't be enough to undo something with roots that are hundreds of years old.

Bolloocks.....Its pure unadulterated greed. Nothing much else to add.

That line was sprouted out about the past and I'd love to find out where it first came from....
My bets would be ad agency, estate agent or historian who had a load of houses to offload.

Please remember in life that even the so called experts that you get in to do something wheteher its for you or your company or your country. ALL OF THEM, without fail, have some kind of angle or vested interested.

shopaholic01

Buying property will always be attractive as there are no long term leases available here. If you know you are going to settle in one area it makes more sense to buy, especially if you have, or plan on having, children. Otherwise, you are at the mercy of landlords.


If people buy what they can afford, don't view their home as an investment and chose a house that will meet their needs for life it shouldn't create another false bubble.

A lot of what happened before was due to a keeping up with the Jones' mentality - people trading up to 4 or 5 bed mac mansions, when they had lived happily in their previous home for years. Hopefully we won't see a return of buying apartments as starter homes, when you really needed a family home.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I don't know what all this stereotyping about magnolia is supposed to signify however....

Do you realise how small a proportion of the population give a toss about property bubbles or bursts? Just contemplate for a moment just how many bought in the 1980s and 1990s alone. Mortgages for these people are mostly paid off. The value of the property is still multiples of what was paid for them. Then you have the high proportion of those still paying mortgages but can afford to do so, have no intentsions of selling and thus are not impacted by negative equity.

Then you have the quandary: do we want property prices to go up, down or stay stagnant? I own a home in negative equity and need to move, so I want values to rise. I am hoping to get on the property ladder (hate that expression) so I want prices to fall. I inherit a property so please let prices go up. I'm liuving nin my paid for house and intend staying here so i don't care anything about prices. What we want depends on where we are starting from and we must always keep in mind that we have large numbers coming from all directions on this.
The other factor is that we have always found it difficult to buy or pay for property. Its only the brief tiger years of cheap credit that changed things. 30 years ago a single person could not easily buy property. It took 2 salaries and years of saving towards a deposit before you could contemplate buying a house. Interest rates were such that at least one full salary went to servicing the mortgage.

Anyway, I suppose the point is that we are all at different stages and the rise or fall in property prices had different implications for us all.

I can't wait to buy myself and will be doing so asap. Now is the time prices are already on the rise and I want to get in before they go up again. I will probably buy initially somewhere that I don't plan on living long term but it sure beats paying rent and protects you from price rises also.

Days 298

Plates wrote: »

Jaysus lads. How many threads on property prices are we going to have? No amount of moaning on here will halt the march of the free market.

If only it was a free market. People who threw a few holidays, their wedding and their car on the mortgage and now moan about negative equity and repayments and expect that the rest of siociety owes them for some strange reason and they shouldnt have or pay it back. Neighbour of mine went crazy and bought 4 houses in my estate alone because they thought theyd make a profit. Decided last year they had enough and just stopped paying. This is a household bringing in just under 150k a year and yet it the governments fault and they should get to keep the houses. Makes my blood boil :mad: /Rant

If you gamble you should have a chance of losing.

greenbicycle

Whats with all this ladder business and the begrudgery and the idea that all current property buyers are rich investors or magic mortgage getters cause there is just nomortgages being given out to normal people?

I bought a house last year, modest a three bed semi D. This is the house and area i will stay in forever. I have at least three friends and a sibling who bought houses , exact same situation as me.

Some of these houses are even in the mysterious desirable land of socodu as its been recently named...

None of us are super rich, i have a really average job and so does my husband, neither are particularly secure but we have worked in our jobs for a few years and the banks were happy with that.

Yes i am more fortunate than many cause i have a job and a house but i am also equal and have less than the many that spout nonsense about the whole house buying topic.

bnt

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem isn't people willing to buy, it's banks willing to lend.

Banks are willing to lend. They're just not prepared to lend crazy amounts to any person with a pulse, as they were during the boom years.

It was too-accessible lending that inflated prices in the first place. Sellers can ask any prices they like, but they'll only get buyers at what the banks are willing to lend (after deposit). So I'm quite OK with mortgages being hard to get, since a relaxation of lending criteria by banks will just serve to inflate the bubble again.

House prices need to come down to match what people can safely afford to pay. There are simple rules for what that means, the simplest being that a mortgage should max out at 3-4 times the household annual income. For example, a total income of €40k means a mortgage of €160k max.

Jesus Wept

It's not a ladder.

TGi666

ah lads ye have it all wrong, the real money is in proper tea I tells ya!!

MadsL

Deleted User wrote: »

Rent prices are mental and it's cheaper to buy than to rent for a lot of people.

I hope that people have learnt that the mortgage payment per month is not the end of the story. Directly comparing rent per month with mortage per month does not alway equal "cheaper to buy than to rent".

There are many other costs and factors in buying a house.

Cian92

kupus wrote: »

Bolloocks.....Its pure unadulterated greed. Nothing much else to add.

Oh for god sake, there is nothing greedy about wanting to buy your own home. I'm young and don't know where life will take me yet, but I will certainly want to own my own home when I settle down for good. That's natural and there is nothing greedy about it.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

I hope that people have learnt that the mortgage payment per month is not the end of the story. Directly comparing rent per month with mortage per month does not alway equal "cheaper to buy than to rent".

There are many other costs and factors in buying a house.

Thank you teacher.

Ihatecuddles

Just bought a 3 bed. Getting the keys in about 5 weeks.

Then we have to do it up

MadsL

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you teacher.

Well, if people haven't learned that by now...yet, I see people posting that the rent is higher than the mortgage payment all the time and therefore it is cheaper to buy than to rent. Ain't necessarily so...

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Well, if people haven't learned that by now...yet, I see people posting that the rent is higher than the mortgage payment all the time and therefore it is cheaper to buy than to rent. Ain't necessarily so...

You missed the part where I've had a mortgage for ten years. I know how it works. I've been both a tenant and a landlord so I've a half decent idea about the whole thing.

Not so lucky of course to have ended up in negative equity but I ain't selling so makes little difference really.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Well, if people haven't learned that by now...yet, I see people posting that the rent is higher than the mortgage payment all the time and therefore it is cheaper to buy than to rent. Ain't necessarily so...

A few hundred a month in the difference would cover most differences and more.

Even if it works out around the same or more if you were willing to pay back extra money in the mortgage to pay if off quicker it's a much better use of the money using to to own a place.

syklops

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm convinced that Irish people's obsession with property is a historical ghost of the fact that in the not too distant past, we either couldn't own it or were persecuted for owning it. As such, I believe it's deeply ingrained in the Irish psyche and an economic crisis lasting a decade won't be enough to undo something with roots that are hundreds of years old.

Irish peoples obsession with property ownership is quite simple really. Long term rental/long term rental is non existent. I went to a viewing yesterday an enquired about a 2 year lease and the estate agent said she would have to check and then admitted she preferred 1 year leases because otherwise she can't up the rent the following year and so doesn't get a bump in her fees.

On top of that the tenants in Ireland have much less rights than in other countries. There was a thread in Accommodation and Property recently, with a landlord who was living abroad and had a tenant in for the last five years renting the place. The landlord had decided to return home and wanted to move back in to their place and wanted to know how much notice they had to give their tenant. The amount of comments saying that 1 month was plenty of time for the tenant to find a new place was sickening.

Irish people want somewhere they can feel safe and no-one can kick them out at the drop of a hat. The only way that can be guaranteed is by home ownership.

Gehad_JoyRider

Only house Id ever bye is in Ibiza no interest in living in this cold country... Decent place in Ibizia would be worth it imo living n ireland I'd only ever rent...

goose2005

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm convinced that Irish people's obsession with property is a historical ghost of the fact that in the not too distant past, we either couldn't own it or were persecuted for owning it. As such, I believe it's deeply ingrained in the Irish psyche and an economic crisis lasting a decade won't be enough to undo something with roots that are hundreds of years old.

No, that's not true. A more likely fact is that we don't have a decent rental market so if you want a good house at a non-eye-gouging price you have to buy it - or build it - yourself. Add in tax regimes that over decades encouraged land hoarding and property speculation.

Femme_Fatale

Cian92 wrote: »

Oh for god sake, there is nothing greedy about wanting to buy your own home. I'm young and don't know where life will take me yet, but I will certainly want to own my own home when I settle down for good. That's natural and there is nothing greedy about it.

syklops wrote: »

Irish peoples obsession with property ownership is quite simple really. Long term rental/long term rental is non existent. I went to a viewing yesterday an enquired about a 2 year lease and the estate agent said she would have to check and then admitted she preferred 1 year leases because otherwise she can't up the rent the following year and so doesn't get a bump in her fees.

On top of that the tenants in Ireland have much less rights than in other countries. There was a thread in Accommodation and Property recently, with a landlord who was living abroad and had a tenant in for the last five years renting the place. The landlord had decided to return home and wanted to move back in to their place and wanted to know how much notice they had to give their tenant. The amount of comments saying that 1 month was plenty of time for the tenant to find a new place was sickening.

Irish people want somewhere they can feel safe and no-one can kick them out at the drop of a hat. The only way that can be guaranteed is by home ownership.

goose2005 wrote: »

No, that's not true. A more likely fact is that we don't have a decent rental market so if you want a good house at a non-eye-gouging price you have to buy it - or build it - yourself. Add in tax regimes that over decades encouraged land hoarding and property speculation.

Don't mind your considered and well-thought-out opinions - wanting to take out a mortgage is GREED I tells ya, greed! I'm a member of the "Irish people are all really greedy except me and any aspect of Irish society I can blame on greed, I will, with no back-up" brigade.

If I had a stable job I'd probably be looking to buy soon, good bit cheaper than renting and what I'd be getting is unlikely to fall in price much more. Rent prices have gone mental as well. I pass by an ad coming home quite often for student accomodation and for each of the last 3 years the poster has been updated with at least a €10 increase each year.

KyussBishop

Have people not figured out yet, that when bubbles burst we all end up paying for it?

The banks/financial institutions don't have to give a toss about how unsustainable housing bubbles become, because if their collapse poses a big enough threat to economic stability, they'll get bailed out.

A healthy market for people to buy houses in is good (nothing wrong with sustainable mortgages), but not one where the prices are rising in a bubble, as that's just pumping the same old bubble mill again, which will only last so long before it results in another crash (causing a portion of the new mortgage debt to become unsustainable too).


If we let another bubble form, we'll be wholesale privatizing public assets, to pay the debt on the bailouts that will come as a result of it; Stephen Kinsella describes it well here:

...
There is a well understood cycle in economic theory. It's called the Minsky cycle, and it works like this: a few years after a credit-driven bubble collapses, people forget how bad things were and lending resumes. Asset prices rise, consumption increases, and there is another boom. The boom turns to euphoria, people begin moving from financing their activities from hedge-type finance to speculative and Ponzi-type finances, and the euphoria fades in an instant when the bubble bursts.

Fear and greed combine spectacularly, collapsing the economy until either the government or the central bank steps in to bail the worst offenders out and steady things for a while, until calm is restored for long enough for people to forget. The cycle then takes off again. Without meaningful reform, seven years from now we might look back at 2014 as the year a bubble began to reform, as the year the cycle kicked off again. This time we won't be selling bits of our country to ourselves, we will be selling it to foreign buyers. But that's just a detail. The taxpayer may well end up footing another bill foisted upon them by bureaucratic incompetence and a failure to reform the institutions that caused the 2007 crisis when we had the chance. 2014 is that chance.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/stephen-kinsella/what-will-the-coalition-miss-in-2014-a-chance-to-stop-a-new-bubble-29876240.html

What we ignore and trivialize now can destroy the country economically in the future - same way as practically nobody saw todays destruction coming, pre-crisis.

KyussBishop

KyussBishop wrote: »

Have people not figured out yet, that when bubbles burst we all end up paying for it?

The banks/financial institutions don't have to give a toss about how unsustainable housing bubbles become, because if their collapse poses a big enough threat to economic stability, they'll get bailed out.

A healthy market for people to buy houses in is good (nothing wrong with sustainable mortgages), but not one where the prices are rising in a bubble, as that's just pumping the same old bubble mill again, which will only last so long before it results in another crash (causing a portion of the new mortgage debt to become unsustainable too).

Are we in a bubble right now? I don't quite see what all this has to do with the current market.

If we let another bubble form, we'll be wholesale privatizing public assets, to pay the debt on the bailouts that will come as a result of it; Stephen Kinsella describes it well here:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/stephen-kinsella/what-will-the-coalition-miss-in-2014-a-chance-to-stop-a-new-bubble-29876240.html

We're not in a bubble and there's still a few years' of depressants for the market to come on-line.

What we ignore and trivialize now can destroy the country economically in the future - same way as practically nobody saw todays destruction coming, pre-crisis.

Who's ignoring or trivialising? If it's cheaper to buy than rent and someone isn't planning on moving on then why not go for it?

Gehad_JoyRider

I dont get this buying a house is cheeper then renting :eek: how is it cheeper your balls are nailed to the wall. you have to come up with the beans. YOu loose any flxability with in your future for what a house? really is it that critical to buy?