28 sec or 35 sec kero??

TireeTerror

Ive had my home heating oil tank filled with 500 litres at a time every month since October. Whenever I looked in the tank to see how much was left, I could see the fuel was red in colour.

Today I went to NI and bought 500 litres of kerosene and brought it home as its cheaper. I can see its yellow in colour. A quick Google tells me that red is 35 sec fuel, the same as agri-diesel and that the yellow is 28 sec kerosene.

I have always asked for home heating oil previously, without specifying 28 or 35 sec. My Stanley says "28 secs Kerosene Only" on it.

So it appears I have been using the wrong stuff. Would this have caused any damage? Should I expect the STanley to be more efficient now Im using 28 sec fuel, and hopefully last a bit longer? 500 litres is quite a lot to use each month.

Wearb

TireeTerror wrote: »

Ive had my home heating oil tank filled with 500 litres at a time every month since October. Whenever I looked in the tank to see how much was left, I could see the fuel was red in colour.

Today I went to NI and bought 500 litres of kerosene and brought it home as its cheaper. I can see its yellow in colour. A quick Google tells me that red is 35 sec fuel, the same as agri-diesel and that the yellow is 28 sec kerosene.

I have always asked for home heating oil previously, without specifying 28 or 35 sec. My Stanley says "28 secs Kerosene Only" on it.

So it appears I have been using the wrong stuff. Would this have caused any damage? Should I expect the STanley to be more efficient now Im using 28 sec fuel, and hopefully last a bit longer? 500 litres is quite a lot to use each month.

28 sec is kerosene.
Heating diesel is green in ROI and afaik red in NI.
Kerosene (red) in ROI to the in trained eye/nose would look similar to heating diesel in NI

Wearb

Meant to add. It doesn't seem like you have been using wrong fuel. Also it is better to specify in proper terms when ordering, ie requesting Kerosene in your case.

DGOBS

Would have said Kero in NI is more green than yellow
Have found some yellow keri to be washed fuel in the past

pa990

(35sec) Diesel is Green in Ireland, Red up north

(28sec) Kerosene is Red in Ireland, and its a clear color up north


Next time you're ordering fuel ask for Kerosene, and ask the oil company for a sticker that says "Kerosene" that you can stick on the oil tank.

My local company used to put "KEROSENE" stickers on tanks, whenever they went to a new customer. (and obviously a "Gas Oil" sticker for those customers needing diesel)

DGOBS

Hopefully this helps, as a reference to fuel colour showing Kero and Gas Oil for Northern Ireland

In Southern Ireland Kero is the same colour as Gas Oil in the North
Our Gas Oil is a darker green than their Kero (greenish??)

TireeTerror

Thanks everyone for the help. It is the same as the 100% Kero in that pdf from DGOBS. Its not exactly clear though, not like water. Even in that file its got a yellowish hue.

Anyone have any bright ideas on how to get it into the tank.....

jimf

TireeTerror wrote: »

Thanks everyone for the help. It is the same as the 100% Kero in that pdf from DGOBS. Its not exactly clear though, not like water. Even in that file its got a yellowish hue.

Anyone have any bright ideas on how to get it into the tank.....

unless you have a pump a roadcone makes a great funnel

TireeTerror

jimf wrote: »

unless you have a pump a roadcone makes a great funnel

Like an idiot, I put the IBC on the trailer with the tap facing the side, not the rear as I intended. So it looks like I am going to have to invest in some kind of pump.

Wearb

TireeTerror wrote: »

Like an idiot, I put the IBC on the trailer with the tap facing the side, not the rear as I intended. So it looks like I am going to have to invest in some kind of pump.

Know anybody nearby with a fork lift? Or can you park the trailer higher than the tank?

pa990

You could try a drill pump. Not sure how safe it would be.

Alternatively, you could get a garden hose and syphon it out..

Or drive your trailer to someone / somewhere that has a fork lift, and have the ibc turned around.

TireeTerror

Im looking into getting a pump. Its the best solution, especially for the next time!

TireeTerror

Just ordered this, will arrive tomorrow.

http://www.clarkedistributors.ie/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=815

Wearb

TireeTerror wrote: »

Just ordered this, will arrive tomorrow.

http://www.clarkedistributors.ie/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=815

It doesn't say if its suitable for Kerosene which has a lower flashpoint than diesel. Give them a call before they send it out. Also submersible in kerosene would be messy, but if it is OK to use on kero and you are happy with it then fire away.

TireeTerror

I said to the guy on the phone that I wanted to be sure that this type of pump would be suitable to use for moving kerosene from one tank to another, his answer was "This is exactly what it is designed for".

You are right about it being messy, but to be honest I just want the stuff in my tank now as its freezing! I go through 500 litres of oil each month, so it will only be used 12 times per year.

EDIT: Not in the summer obviously.....so maybe about 8 times a year. I can handle that.

Wearb

TireeTerror wrote: »

I said to the guy on the phone that I wanted to be sure that this type of pump would be suitable to use for moving kerosene from one tank to another, his answer was "This is exactly what it is designed for".

You are right about it being messy, but to be honest I just want the stuff in my tank now as its freezing! I go through 500 litres of oil each month, so it will only be used 12 times per year.

With that kind of usage you could perhaps come to a very reasonable arrangement (with payment spread) with some local oil company.

That is very high usage for a domestic house. Not growing something there by any chance

TireeTerror

I thought it was high, but I asked the boiler engineer and he said its quite normal for this size of house. Im using a Stanley Superstar range, and there are a fair few draughts in the house and a hell of a lot of windows.

Its a lot cheaper up North to buy it, so well worth the outlay of the IBC and the pump. It will pay for itself with just over 1000 litres of use.

Its €823 for 1000 litres, that is the cheapest I can find it around here in Louth. The IBC cost €50 and the pump €75. They are one-off costs. Diesel to drive to the border and back is around €18. It was 68.9c per litre when I bought it, so thats €689 per fill which saves me €134. Minus the diesel to get it, its still a saving of €116.

I quite like the trip up North too, pet food etc is a good bit cheaper. If I can tie that in with buying wood pellets for the horses beds then it may be even cheaper! Every penny is a prisoner.

Robbie.G

TireeTerror wrote: »

I thought it was high, but I asked the boiler engineer and he said its quite normal for this size of house. Im using a Stanley Superstar range, and there are a fair few draughts in the house and a hell of a lot of windows.

Its a lot cheaper up North to buy it, so well worth the outlay of the IBC and the pump. It will pay for itself with just over 1000 litres of use.

Its €823 for 1000 litres, that is the cheapest I can find it around here in Louth. The IBC cost €50 and the pump €75. They are one-off costs. Diesel to drive to the border and back is around €18. It was 68.9c per litre when I bought it, so thats €689 per fill which saves me €134. Minus the diesel to get it, its still a saving of €116.

I quite like the trip up North too, pet food etc is a good bit cheaper. If I can tie that in with buying wood pellets for the horses beds then it may be even cheaper! Every penny is a prisoner.

You would just need to be careful as an ibc is not designed to carry fuel and it is also an offence to transport fuel unless it is in a proper fuel container.If you came across the guards or customs you could lose the lot

TireeTerror

Robbie.G wrote: »

You would just need to be careful as an ibc is not designed to carry fuel and it is also an offence to transport fuel unless it is in a proper fuel container.If you came across the guards or customs you could lose the lot

Yeah I know. I had a tarp around it to try and disguise it. In the place where I bought it, they have what appears to be a proper fuel bowser, but upon closer inspection its just an IBC with wood panels around it to make it look like something better!

shane0007

TireeTerror wrote: »

Yeah I know. I had a tarp around it to try and disguise it. In the place where I bought it, they have what appears to be a proper fuel bowser, but upon closer inspection its just an IBC with wood panels around it to make it look like something better!

Yeah, the ol' tarp trick always gets one over the customs guys. You could also try a branch & few twigs on it. They might think it's a bush.... :-)

You could try one of these!

TireeTerror

UPDATE.

Received my submersible pump from Clarke's in the post today. I was surprised how small it was, however it pumped away just fine and in about 32 minutes it had transferred the 500 litres into my tank. There is about 1 litre of kero at the bottom of the IBC, I could tip it up and get it out with a bit of effort, but Im too lazy and its very windy outside.

Would I be able to store agri-diesel in this for the tractor and a 300TDi Landrover I use around the fields? Would I have to ensure I got every last drop of kero out before putting a couple of hundred litres of diesel in there, or would the dilution at that level not matter? How long would diesel last?

What are the legalities of using red diesel for agri-use instead of green? Its about 79c per litre up north for red, and €1 for green here. Is it ok to use it as long as its for personal use on agricultural land?

jimf

TireeTerror wrote: »

UPDATE.

Received my submersible pump from Clarke's in the post today. I was surprised how small it was, however it pumped away just fine and in about 32 minutes it had transferred the 500 litres into my tank. There is about 1 litre of kero at the bottom of the IBC, I could tip it up and get it out with a bit of effort, but Im too lazy and its very windy outside.

Would I be able to store agri-diesel in this for the tractor and a 300TDi Landrover I use around the fields? Would I have to ensure I got every last drop of kero out before putting a couple of hundred litres of diesel in there, or would the dilution at that level not matter? How long would diesel last?

What are the legalities of using red diesel for agri-use instead of green? Its about 79c per litre up north for red, and €1 for green here. Is it ok to use it as long as its for personal use on agricultural land?

you really love giving enda a few bob don't you :P only joking

Wearb

TireeTerror wrote: »

UPDATE.

Received my submersible pump from Clarke's in the post today. I was surprised how small it was, however it pumped away just fine and in about 32 minutes it had transferred the 500 litres into my tank. There is about 1 litre of kero at the bottom of the IBC, I could tip it up and get it out with a bit of effort, but Im too lazy and its very windy outside.

Would I be able to store agri-diesel in this for the tractor and a 300TDi Landrover I use around the fields? Would I have to ensure I got every last drop of kero out before putting a couple of hundred litres of diesel in there, or would the dilution at that level not matter? How long would diesel last?

What are the legalities of using red diesel for agri-use instead of green? Its about 79c per litre up north for red, and €1 for green here. Is it ok to use it as long as its for personal use on agricultural land?

No problem with mixing it at those rates.

I don't know why you worry about legalities of the diesel when you smuggle it in in the first place. I am sure customs and excise would like their cut, but I am not going to pass judgement, I know things are done differently along all international borders.

TireeTerror

Wearb wrote: »

No problem with mixing it at those rates.

I don't know why you worry about legalities of the diesel when you smuggle it in in the first place. I am sure customs and excise would like their cut, but I am not going to pass judgement, I know things are done differently along all international borders.

Im not worried about the legalities, I just want to know what the law is on using red instead of green. I may be wrong, but I have have researched quite a bit and my understanding is that bringing kero down from the North is not illegal and is not smuggling. It is no different than filling your car with fuel in Newry and then continuing your journey South. I believe that I can bring as much fuel down with me as I want for the heating, so long as it is for personal use and I am not selling it on to anyone else. I am not avoiding paying duty on it as duty was paid in the UK, the EU is a free market after all. I know there are exceptions to this rule, especially with tobacco, but Im sure fuel use is fine so long as its for personal use, as I said earlier.

I would be delighted if anyone could confirm that for me, or if you could tell me what department I could call to find out.

DGOBS

The problem really is the transport of the fuel, the rules for this are set down in the ADR (covers carriage of dangerous goods by road) and you will not be meeting the criteria, so may be liable for prosecution.

Also, in the event of an accident you will not have insurance cover (and oil spill clean up is not cheap) also the fire risk etc in that event.

I am not knocking you, but you need to be aware of the implications you open yourself too.

TireeTerror

DGOBS wrote: »

The problem really is the transport of the fuel, the rules for this are set down in the ADR (covers carriage of dangerous goods by road) and you will not be meeting the criteria, so may be liable for prosecution.

Also, in the event of an accident you will not have insurance cover (and oil spill clean up is not cheap) also the fire risk etc in that event.

I am not knocking you, but you need to be aware of the implications you open yourself too.

That is exactly what I thought myself. A few of these suppliers allow you to use genuine double bunded fuel bowsers, which would comply with the safety regs.

I just spoke to the Revenue on the phone and the woman there said it was smuggling, however when I asked her to explain how it was OK for me to fill my car with fuel and drive South she replied "ooh now youre getting very technical" and I explained I wanted to know a definitive answer. I got the impression she didnt really know, so she gave e the details of Customs and Ive to phone back after lunchtime.

DGOBS

Even with the correct tank for transport, you still wouldn't hold the correct license or insurance (in a crash a bunded tank won't help much) and also wouldn't have to correct signage.

Wearb

TireeTerror wrote: »

That is exactly what I thought myself. A few of these suppliers allow you to use genuine double bunded fuel bowsers, which would comply with the safety regs.

I just spoke to the Revenue on the phone and the woman there said it was smuggling, however when I asked her to explain how it was OK for me to fill my car with fuel and drive South she replied "ooh now youre getting very technical" and I explained I wanted to know a definitive answer. I got the impression she didnt really know, so she gave e the details of Customs and Ive to phone back after lunchtime.

I am uncertain about IBC's (strange exemptions for them) but for bowsers with a capacity of over 1000L you need to have a hazchem licence and have the bowser certified and properly marked up. It doesn't matter if you have only a small amount in it. It is the quantity that it is capable of holding that matters.
A call to any of the Hazchem trainers would sort it out quickly.

TireeTerror

Just off the phone to the Customs dept in the Revenue. I honestly do not have a clue, there seemed to be an awful lot of guessing involved in the answers. Nothing definitive at all, which just seems incredible.

I explained that I wanted to bring kero in and red diesel in for personal use on a farm. I wanted to know the legal implications if caught and my obligations to ensure I was not breaking the law.

From what I gathered, I would have to pay carbon tax as the fuel would be burnt in the State. When I suggested that I may have already paid it in the UK when purchasing it, and if I would be able to reclaim that from the UK, there was no answer provided. I was told there are certain exceptions and conditions regarding hydro-carbon fuels. I was advised to look at the revenue website.

He did mention that anything over 1000 litres at a time would not be classed as personal use, and that I had to be sure it was not more than that otherwise I would have to apply for a licence as a trader of some sort.

More confused now than ever. You would have thought there would be a document giving very clear bullet points explaining what you can and cannot do considering the amount of fuel which gets brought over. Do I have to wait until customs stop me in the act to find out the truth?

Wearb

TireeTerror wrote: »

Just off the phone to the Customs dept in the Revenue. I honestly do not have a clue, there seemed to be an awful lot of guessing involved in the answers. Nothing definitive at all, which just seems incredible.

I explained that I wanted to bring kero in and red diesel in for personal use on a farm. I wanted to know the legal implications if caught and my obligations to ensure I was not breaking the law.

From what I gathered, I would have to pay carbon tax as the fuel would be burnt in the State. When I suggested that I may have already paid it in the UK when purchasing it, and if I would be able to reclaim that from the UK, there was no answer provided. I was told there are certain exceptions and conditions regarding hydro-carbon fuels. I was advised to look at the revenue website.

He did mention that anything over 1000 litres at a time would not be classed as personal use, and that I had to be sure it was not more than that otherwise I would have to apply for a licence as a trader of some sort.

More confused now than ever. You would have thought there would be a document giving very clear bullet points explaining what you can and cannot do considering the amount of fuel which gets brought over. Do I have to wait until customs stop me in the act to find out the truth?

Make sure you keep phone records of those conversation times and dates and write a short note to your self recording the conservation, now that it is fresh in your head. Also any names of people you have spoken to. It might all stand you in good stead in the future.

As for being allowed to carry it and the insurance implications, you will need to call your insurance and someone like robin Mulligan (Hazchem training) for more advice.