Organic Beef. Marketing gimmic?

sheebadog

I had a guy visiting the farm a few days ago and he's an organic beef producer. I'm always interested in organic foods and OH always tries to buy organic. Fine.

Now I questioned him on all aspects of the production and the restraints therein.
I was taken aback by the lack of restraints !
This was the first organic beef producer I had ever spoken to. He has a pedigree herd of Parthenais cattle. Cull cows are making €6/kg!!! Not a bad marketing ploy when the only difference is that he doesn't use artificial fertiliser.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not knocking HIM, but I won't be buying organic beef again.

moy83

sheebadog wrote: »

I had a guy visiting the farm a few days ago and he's an organic beef producer. I'm always interested in organic foods and OH always tries to buy organic. Fine.

Now I questioned him on all aspects of the production and the restraints therein.
I was taken aback by the lack of restraints !
This was the first organic beef producer I had ever spoken to. He has a pedigree herd of Parthenais cattle. Cull cows are making €6/kg!!! Not a bad marketing ploy when the only difference is that he doesn't use artificial fertiliser.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not knocking HIM, but I won't be buying organic beef again.

Does he dose them aswell ? And feed normal meal ?

delaval

sheebadog wrote: »

I had a guy visiting the farm a few days ago and he's an organic beef producer. I'm always interested in organic foods and OH always tries to buy organic. Fine.

Now I questioned him on all aspects of the production and the restraints therein.
I was taken aback by the lack of restraints !
This was the first organic beef producer I had ever spoken to. He has a pedigree herd of Parthenais cattle. Cull cows are making €6/kg!!! Not a bad marketing ploy when the only difference is that he doesn't use artificial fertiliser.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not knocking HIM, but I won't be buying organic beef again.

Sheeba, there was a piece on an organic beef guy in ETTG two weeks ago. You'd find it on RTE player.

No fert and longer withdrawal with antibiotics. The period of conversion could be 3-4 years to get certified, open to correction on that.

sheebadog

Feeding regime is the same only all must be organically produced.
Yes there is a longer withdrawal period but there is no difference in antibiotics, dosing, vaccines etc.
Is it worth the premium price?

delaval

sheebadog wrote: »

Feeding regime is the same only all must be organically produced.
Yes there is a longer withdrawal period but there is no difference in antibiotics, dosing, vaccines etc.
Is it worth the premium price?

The ladies who shop in Donnybrook Fayre seem to think so anyway!!!

bob charles

presume all vaccines are allowed in organic. in reality antibiotic usage is nowadays much lower on beef farms anyway. what are the rules on antibiotic withdrawal extra length, I suppose this is at the honesty of the farmer to adhere. oh and you allowed import as much poisonous conventional cattle ****e as you want.

Muckit

Buying organic is a lifestyle choice. There is no research to prove that organic food is any healthier for you than conventionally produced food.

Everyone thinks about chemical fertiliser first and foremost, but there is a lot more to it than that. Imagine producing your arable crops without being able to spray. Even grassland, perhaps docks are not an issue in france!

Saying that, it might suit you to convert quicker than a small irish farmer as you are already used to straw bedding and being very self sufficient as regards grain and straw. You'd have a lower stocking rate, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I think many conventional beef farmers could implement a lot of organic practices to help reduce inputs without the burden of some of the other restrictions. Ie clover, cutting back on dosing by rotational grazing etc

sheebadog

Just watched the "organic beef" segment on ETTG. A lot of skirting around the real issues.
Fair dues on the marketing of organic beef. However considering the hardship that cereal and veg growers have to endure, the beef gets an easy ride.
For me to have proper organic beef it would have to be as "clean" as wild game. It's a long way from that.

sheebadog

Muckit wrote: »

Buying organic is a lifestyle choice. There is no research to prove that organic food is any healthier for you than conventionally produced food.

Everyone thinks about chemical fertiliser first and foremost, but there is a lot more to it than that. Imagine producing your arable crops without being able to spray. Even grassland, perhaps docks are not an issue in france!

Saying that, it might suit you to convert quicker than a small irish farmer as you are already used to straw bedding and being very self sufficient as regards grain and straw. You'd have a lower stocking rate, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I think many conventional beef farmers could implement a lot of organic practices to help reduce inputs without the burden of some of the other restrictions. Ie clover, cutting back on dosing by rotational grazing etc

As far as I know cereals are not allowed any chemicals whatsoever.
In a different life I sold quite an amount of products into Donnybrook Fayre and the likes and I have to say that this beef thing amazes me.
Plenty docks here too Muckit!!

Conmaicne Mara

I think it's a load of rubbish to be blunt. People are fully entitled to buy into it with their own money though. I won't buy organic.

Fella I know went organic on a hill farm, I considered it but he's on private hill whereas I am on commonage, so wouldn't have been an option.

There is, or was, grant aid available during the conversion period. I remember asking him how much a bag of organic feed was and I do believe he said €17 (25kg, 2010). All hay and straw and any FYM coming in would have to be organically certified I think. That's a lot of hassle.

In terms of fertiliser I would much prefer to put out FYM, if I had it, as opposed to granular chemical fert. I would be in the camp that I don't think chemical fertiliser is a good thing, I'm also a hypocrite in that I use it each year.

onyerbikepat

If I remember right on that ETTG programme, they said that withdrawal periods had to be doubled for medicines. Simple as that.

Muckit

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I think it's a load of rubbish to be blunt. People are fully entitled to buy into it with their own money though. I won't buy organic.

Fella I know went organic on a hill farm, I considered it but he's on private hill whereas I am on commonage, so wouldn't have been an option.

There is, or was, grant aid available during the conversion period. I remember asking him how much a bag of organic feed was and I do believe he said €17 (25kg, 2010). All hay and straw and any FYM coming in would have to be organically certified I think. That's a lot of hassle.

In terms of fertiliser I would much prefer to put out FYM, if I had it, as opposed to granular chemical fert. I would be in the camp that I don't think chemical fertiliser is a good thing, I'm also a hypocrite in that I use it each year.

I don't get it Con. You don't think chemical fertiliser is a good thing, yet you think organic is 'a load of rubbish'? Is it that you feel organic farmers shouldn't get a price premium for their product?

Farmer Pudsey

onyerbikepat wrote: »

If I remember right on that ETTG programme, they said that withdrawal periods had to be doubled for medicines. Simple as that.

I think you have to get the vet's approval for dosing etc. It is not just a case of at housing you dose them all.

Muckit

sheebadog wrote: »

Just watched the "organic beef" segment on ETTG. A lot of skirting around the real issues.
Fair dues on the marketing of organic beef. However considering the hardship that cereal and veg growers have to endure, the beef gets an easy ride.
For me to have proper organic beef it would have to be as "clean" as wild game. It's a long way from that.

Please elaborate. What do you feel are 'the real issues'? Why do you not feel that organic is not as 'clean as game'? If no chemicals are used what is 'dirtying' the system in your view?

Conmaicne Mara

Muckit wrote: »

I don't get it Con. You don't think chemical fertiliser is a good thing, yet you think organic is 'a load of rubbish'? Is it that you feel organic farmers shouldn't get a price premium for their product?

I think organic is a marketing ploy, I don't believe it to be any healthier, tastier, or safer than conventionally produced food.

Chemical fertiliser is different to organic or conventional food, I wasn't linking the two, I was commenting as they were both mentioned in posts above.

I don't believe in the long term chemical fertiliser is good for the soil and it's fertility.

I never said anything good or bad about organic farmers.

sheebadog

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I think you have to get the vet's approval for dosing etc. It is not just a case of at housing you dose them all.

This is where it falls down. Animal welfare.
If beef is to be organic it should IMO be chemical free.
And at housing if you want you DO dose them all.
Who is going to say no? Treehuggers would have a shyte attack.

Muckit

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I think organic is a marketing ploy, I don't believe it to be any healthier, tastier, or safer than conventionally produced food.

Chemical fertiliser is different to organic or conventional food, I wasn't linking the two, I was commenting as they were both mentioned in posts above.

I don't believe in the long term chemical fertiliser is good for the soil and it's fertility.

I never said anything good or bad about organic farmers.

I agree with you that it isn't any healthier. I don't think organic producers market themselves as being healthier. But as l said, l think it's more a lifestyle choice for consumers. It's a niche market. It's like being vegetarian. The consumer makes that choice. Some people might prefer the notion of eating food produced without the use of chemicals. If they want to pay a premium for that choice then so be it. I do believe it necessary for them to do so because of the increased workload and cost of production.

I would totally agree with you on the soil aspect. FYM has been shown to improve soil makeup.

Conmaicne Mara

Muckit wrote: »

I agree with you that it isn't any healthier. I don't think organic producers market themselves as being healthier. But as l said, l think it's more a lifestyle choice for consumers. It's a niche market. It's like being vegetarian. The consumer makes that choice. Some people might prefer the notion of eating food produced without the use of chemicals. If they want to pay a premium for that choice then so be it. I do believe it necessary for them to do so because of the increased workload and cost of production.

I would totally agree with you on the soil aspect. FYM has been shown to improve soil makeup.

I've no problem with anyone buying organic, or anyone farming organic. My personal opinion is it's a bit of hokum. We should all have free choice, and that's a good thing.

The flip side of that chemical coin is that producing food conventionally must be bad, otherwise why buy organic? Without saying it, it has to be healthier then? That is what I don't like about it. I don't mind if someone has to pay a €50 premium for one organic carrot, that's their choice, it doesn't and won't affect my pocket.

There is increased cost to the organic producer. You could say that about an inefficient producer too though.

Don't get me started on vegetarians

foxy farmer

Does Bord Bia QA meat taste any different to non Q A meat. You never see paper to refuse ink and some people swear by whats on that piece of paper. While organic farming is better production levels wont cope with demand. Higher prices put people off. Companies manufacturing inputs for modern intensive agricultural methods scoff at organic production. Imho none are 100% organic. I know of one" organic" producer who takes a share of milk from a farmer milking almost 200 cows for his dairy products. Seemingly silage bales being fed to cows in "summer" of 2012 was affecting the quality of milk supplied and he ordered him to feed pit silage in august. They bend the rules to suit themselves. Just dont get caught out.

sheebadog

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I've no problem with anyone buying organic, or anyone farming organic. My personal opinion is it's a bit of hokum. We should all have free choice, and that's a good thing.

The flip side of that chemical coin is that producing food conventionally must be bad, otherwise why buy organic? Without saying it, it has to be healthier then? That is what I don't like about it. I don't mind if someone has to pay a €50 premium for one organic carrot, that's their choice, it doesn't and won't affect my pocket.

There is increased cost to the organic producer. You could say that about an inefficient producer too though.

Don't get me started on vegetarians

Intelligent answer

Conmaicne Mara

sheebadog wrote: »

Intelligent answer

First time I've been accused of that

Muckit

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

The flip side of that chemical coin is that producing food conventionally must be bad, otherwise why buy organic? Without saying it, it has to be healthier then? ..............Don't get me started on vegetarians

I suppose it comes down to 'peace of mind'. You know it makes little or no difference, I know it makes little or no difference, but many others aren't willing to take the chance and can afford to make that choice.

I'd equate it to the highly emotive topic of health insurance that was on here a while back. It's a consumer lifestyle choice too. Plenty will say its necessary for their family, others are just as happy to get on without it.

At the end of the day it's what helps you sleep at night.

Oh, btw the OH is vegetarian and will continue to be despite my efforts to convert her!! Bovines are vegetarian too, so I seem to have an affection for them!

conor t

they are allowed to use chemical p+k just no nitrogen

goosey5

conor t wrote: »

they are allowed to use chemical p+k just no nitrogen

We r not allowd to use chemical p+k and if we dose an animal twice in one year it loses its organic cert!

knockmulliner

goosey5 wrote: »

We r not allowd to use chemical p+k and if we dose an animal twice in one year it loses its organic cert!

I am surprised at that i thought you were allowed to use lime and rock phosphate as they occur naturally.

goosey5

knockmulliner wrote: »

I am surprised at that i thought you were allowed to use lime and rock phosphate as they occur naturally.

Since when are lime and rock phosphate chemicals !!!! They occur naturally is the key!!

knockmulliner

goosey5 wrote: »

Since when are lime and rock phosphate chemicals !!!! They occur naturally is the key!!

PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION

CAS NO.65996-94-3

 

EINECS NO. FORMULAX5Y(PO4)3MOL WT. 

H.S. CODE

 TOXICITY SYNONYMSPhosphorite; Phosphate rock;SMILES 

CLASSIFICATION

 

GENERAL DESCRIPTION & APPLICATIONS

'Rock Phosphate' is a sedimentary rock composed of phosphate minerals high enough, especially apatite. It is used directly in fertilizer and as a source of phosphorous compounds. Apatite includes 10 mineral species and has the general formula X5Y(PO4)3, where X is usually Ca2+ or Pb3+ and Y is F-, Cl-, or OH-.SALES SPECIFICATION

TOTAL PHOSPHATE

32.0 - 35.0%

CALCIUM OXIDE

48.0 - 52.0%

MOISTURE

1.5% max

SILICA

2.5 - 5.0%

FLUORIDE

4.0% max

SULFATE

0.7 - 1.9%

IRON

1.0% max

ALUMINIUM

2.0% max

SOLUBLE CHLORODE

0.05% max

POTASSIUM OXIDE

0.3% max

MAGNESIUM OXIDE

0.5% max

PARTICLE SIZE

2.0% max (+4 mesh) + 65% ~ 80% min (-4 ~ +100mesh) + 15% ~ 25% (-100 ~ +200mesh) + 1% ~ 3% (-200 ~ +270mesh) + 1% ~ 3% (-270mesh)

TRANSPORTATION

knockmulliner

limestone  (līm′stōn′)

A sedimentary rock consisting primarily of calcium carbonate, often in the form of the minerals calcite or aragonite, and sometimes with magnesium carbonate in the form of dolomite. Minor amounts of silica, feldspar, pyrite, and clay may also be present. Limestone can occur in many colors but is usually white, gray, or black. It forms either through the accumulation and compaction of fossil shells or other calcium-carbonate based marine organisms, such as coral, or through the chemical precipitation of calcium carbonate out of sea water.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by

UOTE=goosey5;89160224]Since when are lime and rock phosphate chemicals !!!! They occur naturally is the key!![/QUOTE]

Limestone is not a chemical?