Clipless pedals a factor in cyclist death.

Cee-Jay-Cee

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/542219/clipless-pedals-a-factor-in-death-of-cyclist-says-inquest.html

Tragic but I guess it's a risk any clipped in cyclist takes when cycling in towns/cities.

Darkglasses

Very tragic. It sounds like hitting a lamp-post while riding in a cycle lane was probably a more significant factor though. I'd hate if Shimano were scapegoated somehow.

Lumen

I'd guess that the risk of falling under a vehicle whilst attempting to unclip is lower than the risk of falling under a vehicle after having a foot slip off a wet pedal, or failing to bunnyhop a pothole, or any number of other pedal-related misadventures.

If anything, the lessons are (a) don't cycle with equipment you're not able to control, or (b) sometimes, tragic shít just happens.

ford2600

We all have incidents when learning to use clipless this man was just very unlucky.

Hitting lamp pole for whatever reason seems primary cause of accident

Wishbone Ash

I have a vague recollection of reading about the inquest into a cycling fatality involving an older gentleman somewhere in Co Meath? a few years ago and clipless pedals being mentioned as a contributing factor.

Wishbone Ash

Double Post

Inquitus

You are more likely to have a fatal crash when new to a bike, a car, a motorbike or indeed clipless pedals, that's just the nature of getting to grips with new things, tragic accident, nothing more.

happytramp

Weirdly, a couple of times i've almost come a cropper with clipless pedals the force of my foot yanking off the side of the pedal has wrenched it free. I wonder if that's supposed to happen or have I just got them set up wrong.

seamus

Coroners and Judges are typically very clever people. But they are not scientists or engineers, nor are they experts in 99% of things.

They very often make findings like this which are so far outside their area of expertise that the finding is basically meaningless. It's like a Garda saying, "You're attached to the bike. Jaysus, is that not awful dangerous?".

laraghrider

Well the article said the pedals were are factor not the cause. Other factors include riding a bike in the first place, being out of the house that day and what ever caused him to lose control and hit a lamp post in the first place.

ZiabR

You take a risk every time you leave the house, whether it is running, walking or cycling etc. It is impossible to pin any one thing down as the sole cause of an accident. Very unfortunate.

tomasrojo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I have a vague recollection of reading about the inquest into a cycling fatality involving an older gentleman somewhere in Co Meath? a few years ago and clipless pedals being mentioned as a contributing factor.

It was a man in his 70s cycling to meet his son, who tragically drove into the man and killed him. The Garda at the scene subsequently partly blamed the crash on the man being clipped in.

CramCycle

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I have a vague recollection of reading about the inquest into a cycling fatality involving an older gentleman somewhere in Co Meath? a few years ago and clipless pedals being mentioned as a contributing factor.

He was hit at a junction and it was quite clear that the pedals had nothing to do with it but the Super Intendent made some stupid comment about it. Along the ,ines of either he could have stopped or would have if he wasn't clipped in, what actually transpired were issues with signage and rights of way, someone mentioned in thread possibly due to the council not trimming the hedges and signposts being covered. All from memory though, although my memory also says it was Wicklow, so fat lot of good that probably is.

happytramp wrote: »

Weirdly, a couple of times i've almost come a cropper with clipless pedals the force of my foot yanking off the side of the pedal has wrenched it free. I wonder if that's supposed to happen or have I just got them set up wrong.

It is, I find I get my foot to the ground quicker and more appropriately with the Clips as my foot jolts sidewards and lands providing more stability out to my right in a pinch, whereas in regular shoes I lift and either drop right beside or indeed in front or behind the pedal, in an unsafe manner (IMO, obviously).

Koobcam

Personally I always feel a lot safer when clipped in, though maybe that's simply because I am clipped in the vast majority of times I ride a bike, so not being clipped in feels different, unfamiliar and therefore potentially more dangerous. Perhaps it was the same for this poor chap, except in reverse. The other thing about this accident which strikes me is that he would probably not have been run over if he had been cycling on the road, since he would presumably not have struck the lamppost in the first place and even if he had fallen, the vehicle behind would have had to have been travelling slower as it would have been behind the cyclist and therefore probably less likely to hit him. As it is, he was probably travelling faster than was safe given the conditions, even if it was technically within the speed limit, since the very presence of a cyclist in close proximity to the road would have been a potential hazard. Perhaps an argument against bike lanes, or at least badly designed ones.

petethedrummer

My last meeting of face and tarmac in traffic was 2 weeks ago due to wet runners on flat pedals. No damage done.

I have fallen as a result of not being unable to unclip. My left cleat (SPD) had worked itself loose from the shoe and required a huge turn of the ankle to release. I lost balance in the act but thankfully fell to my left. So everybody check your cleats are screwed firmly to your shoes.

jimm

tomasrojo wrote: »

It was a man in his 70s cycling to meet his son, who tragically drove into the man and killed him. The Garda at the scene subsequently partly blamed the crash on the man being clipped in.

I think this is the incident. It happened in Nurney, Co. Kildare.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2011/0216/ireland/cyclist-fatally-injured-when-struck-by-sonaposs-car-inquest-hears-145473.html

"These professional cyclists............" said Sgt Prendergast.

Dermot Illogical

Of course it was the pedals. No way was the van too close!

bambergbike

seamus wrote: »

Coroners and Judges [...] often make findings like this which are so far outside their area of expertise that the finding is basically meaningless.

I think that's what happened here. I get the impression that the man's relatives arrived at the inquest ready to blame the pedals and that the coroner went along with that. It would be interesting to know what a specialist road accident investigator with more specific training would have concluded. I've seen theories that strike me as more plausible than the inquest verdict over on the road.cc forum, but they are still just speculation on the basis of very thin evidence (Street View and media reports) so we'll probably never find out what the lessons from this tragic incident should have been.

That's a pity, because there probably were lessons. The fact that an incident was multi-factorial or the result of an unfortunate chain of events wouldn't, for me, be enough to just chalk it down as one of these unlikely tragedies that strike completely out of the blue sometimes. I would like to see the conclusions from a higher-quality investigation being reported in the papers. But then maybe this was only reported at all because the view the coroner took was a bit odd and therefore newsworthy.

Shimano will get a letter from the coroner, but nothing will I come of it. Clipless pedals already come with safety warnings, and it's not as if NOT clicking in is safer. Toeclips and straps were pretty hazardous, and flat pedals come with safety issues of their own.

Wishbone Ash

Koobcam wrote: »

Personally I always feel a lot safer when clipped in, though maybe that's simply because I am clipped in the vast majority of times I ride a bike, so not being clipped in feels different, unfamiliar and therefore potentially more dangerous...

I took the single speed for a 60k spin this morning. I couldn't be arsed putting on the SPD pedals so just used the flat pedals with SPD shoes. It felt very insecure especially when the pedals were wet and climbing just feels wrong when not clipped in. I also have a bad habit of cycling with the toes of my feet when not clipped in.

RV

Its just me then?
I agree that Shimano pedals have a design flaw that sometimes causes people to fall if they get unbalanced. Its happened to me several times and I have seen it happen to others and read of it happening to professional cyclists. If I lose enough momentum on a sharp climb I can fall off. I have seen people fall at traffic lights and it seemed to me it was because they could not get their feet undone.
It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make pedals which allow feet to move as they need to. But as long as folks like us are prepared to tolerate what they are providing, things will not improve.
I sincerely hope Shimano read and consider that letter very carefully and I suggest we will all be safer if they can do something to remedy this. I think making excuses ("you have been warned") is just unhelpful.

Wishbone Ash

RV wrote: »

Its just me then?
I agree that Shimano pedals have a design flaw that sometimes causes people to fall if they get unbalanced. Its happened to me several times and I have seen it happen to others and read of it happening to professional cyclists. If I lose enough momentum on a sharp climb I can fall off. I have seen people fall at traffic lights and it seemed to me it was because they could not get their feet undone.
It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make pedals which allow feet to move as they need to. But as long as folks like us are prepared to tolerate what they are providing, things will not improve.
I sincerely hope Shimano read and consider that letter very carefully and I suggest we will all be safer if they can do something to remedy this. I think making excuses ("you have been warned") is just unhelpful.

How is it a design flaw? It's simply physics. If you don't unclip (and can't trackstand) you'll fall. People fall at traffic lights because they haven't anticipated a red light. On steep climbs, would you not be aware that you're losing momentum and simply unclip in time. To make pedals with free movement would totally defeat their purpose.

(Look pedals come with 3 levels of movement).

Alek

I agree that Shimano pedals have a design flaw

I hope you're just being sarcastic here.

RV

"I hope you're just being sarcastic here"

I don't get why you hope i am being sarcastic. Is it just because our points of view differ? To answer - if it was a question - i wasn't being sarcastic. I am just noting the inherent weaknesses in the pedals and saying something ought be done - and will be done if enough people care. We may even save a life or two.
If they are not dangerous - then why do they carry a warning. If we can put a woman on the moon, surely we can make a better pedal. I would go so far as to say the design of pedals will improve in the future.

To paraphrase Orwell, 3 levels good; four levels better

quozl

It's just possible that the two goals of securely holding a cyclists foot while they apply pressure at various angles other than perfectly straight AND releasing that foot in any situation where they might conceivably want it released are mutually exclusive.

As it is I can already make my SPD pedals so loose that my foot comes out at the slightest bump or ****up of mine. That makes them less useful and in some ways more dangerous as my foot may pop out unexpectedly.

Alek

I don't get why you hope i am being sarcastic. Is it just because our points of view differ?

Can you please explain in bit more technical detail on the inherent fault you have found with Shimano pedals?

Which ones exactly?

Do you mean SPD, SPD-SL or other?

Also, for the SPD system there are cleats that allow multiple clip out positions/movements, not only heel out. Are they also inherently faulty in your opinion?

Alek

That makes them less useful and in some ways more dangerous as my foot may pop out unexpectedly.

True, tried these once with nearly disastrous result...

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/shimano-cleats-sm-sh56/rp-prod10969

CramCycle

RV wrote: »

Its just me then?
I agree that Shimano pedals have a design flaw that sometimes causes people to fall if they get unbalanced.

People have a design flaw where they think they can get away without unclipping, if a light goes red, unclip before you get to it. If you can't use clips due to other issue, then don't try.

I sincerely hope Shimano read and consider that letter very carefully and I suggest we will all be safer if they can do something to remedy this. I think making excuses ("you have been warned") is just unhelpful.

I hope Shimano read it, get a thorough report put together and take the person who insinuated it was in some way their fault to court for such negligent BS. It is a tragedy but the shoes were not to blame.

RV wrote: »

If they are not dangerous - then why do they carry a warning.

For the same reason coffee cups have a warning of hot liquid. Society have removed the idea of "it's your own fault for not thinking it through" and replaced it with a culture of "its someone s fault but it surely is not mine"

RV

I didn't know there were different types! For all I know there may well be some types from which one can readily unclip in an emergency. Not mine, and not evidently those of the deceased which was a real shame. I expect it is a shoe/pedal combination that is the problem I don't pretend to know the answer.
As regards the 'physics' explanation - I don't agree. Excessive speed is inherently dangerous but a lot has been done to protect motorists in the event of an accident. I like to think more can be done - the same way I want to think shoe/pedal combinations could work better. Some of the shoes seem really expensive and part of that cost should be enough to fund R&D so that lives can be saved, or at least safety enhanced.

Dermot Illogical

RV wrote: »

I want to think shoe/pedal combinations could work better.

They work fine. It's the shoe/pedal/brain combination that sometimes fails to work.

Lumen

RV wrote: »

I didn't know there were different types! For all I know there may well be some types from which one can readily unclip in an emergency. Not mine, and not evidently those of the deceased which was a real shame. I expect it is a shoe/pedal combination that is the problem I don't pretend to know the answer.

I've been using clipless pedals on and off for a couple of decades and never had a problem unclipping in an emergency.

To unclip: swing your heel to the side.
To stay clipped in: do not swing your heel to the side.

If you cannot swing your heel to the side in an emergency you should not be using clipless pedals, in the same way that if you cannot remember which pedal to press in an emergency (brake or accelerator) you should not be operating a motor car.

Clipless pedals ARE the solution to the safety and security limitations of toeclips.

RV

CramCycle wrote: »

For the same reason coffee cups have a warning of hot liquid. Society have removed the idea of "it's your own fault for not thinking it through" and replaced it with a culture of "its someone s fault but it surely is not mine"

Hardly like with like. Cups have been designed over time with improved insulation to reduce the risk of burning the carrier and to keep the contents hot because folks like hot coffee. These constitute a safety improvements. If people didn't want hot coffee, then there would be zero risk.

In my ideal world no cycling shoe would contribute to an injury. You guys seem to be defending shoes saying we should tolerate whatever level of safety Shimano want to impose on us.

Lumen

RV wrote: »

You guys seem to be defending shoes saying we should tolerate whatever level of safety Shimano want to impose on us.

Shimano don't impose anything on us. We choose to buy and use their product. If you don't like them, don't use them.

CramCycle

RV wrote: »

I didn't know there were different types! For all I know there may well be some types from which one can readily unclip in an emergency. Not mine, and not evidently those of the deceased which was a real shame. I expect it is a shoe/pedal combination that is the problem I don't pretend to know the answer.

Do you mind me asking which ones you have as I know of none that cannot be unclipped in an emergency bar maybe ones that have been made super tight for a track racing record attempt. If you cannot readily unclip after a small bit of practise, then you probably should not use clipless pedals.

I like to think more can be done - the same way I want to think shoe/pedal combinations could work better. Some of the shoes seem really expensive and part of that cost should be enough to fund R&D so that lives can be saved, or at least safety enhanced.

I think the point of my earlier posts was that the comment in court was off the cuff with no real or at least thorough assessment done. A coroner who does not use or undersatand the pedals, gets told that the cyclists feet were stuck to the pedals, he is not told about the relative ease of unclipping in an emergency, he adds them to a list of aggravating factors (not reasons btw, because that would be implying out and out blame which he would have to defend through proof, hence "factor" not "reason").

Zen0

Sorry RV, but it is just you. The rest of us in here like cleats. I have injured myself slipping off a pedal when I hit a bump. For me, I use cleats because they enhance my safety. They do require that you use some foresight, but I regard that as a requirement of safe cycling anyway. I use Shimano multi release SPDs and have never had a problem. I did have some issues with my original unbranded cleats, could have been my inexperience or the cleats. I don't care, they work better than the alternative for me. Every choice has consequences. If you don't trust cleats don't use them.

Wishbone Ash

RV wrote: »

...In my ideal world no cycling shoe would contribute to an injury. You guys seem to be defending shoes saying we should tolerate whatever level of safety Shimano want to impose on us.

Shimano aren't the only manufacturer of clipless pedals. They were actually introduced by LOOK in the 1980's and became popular after Hinault won the TDF in 1985 wearing them. There are several other popular brands such as Speedplay and Crank Brothers. You do have the option of using flat pedals if they don't suit you.

RV

Not having been in the court, one can't be sure but I would not lightly assume the Coroner did not understand. (Though that's not really my argument). I assume the Coroner was familiar with the facts of the case; we have only a court report or perhaps a part of it. My point remains about an inherent weakness in the clip/shoe combination that I feel, could be improved.
Manufacturers are routinely held responsible for faulty products even if people 'chose' to buy them. In my book it is no defence to say "on your own head be it".
I think saying a fall is a failure of a shoe/pedal/brain combination doesn't take the nature of an emergency into account. The brain may have very little time to process what's happening and the instinctive response may be one that makes matters worse for the unfortunate trying to unclip. Which to me seems to be case in most falls.
And again I don't think the car pedal analogy is a good one. If it is found that the brake or clutch pedals are a poor design, or too stiff, the manufacturer is likely to come under scrutiny even if the driver made a silly mistake.

RV

Zen0 wrote: »

do require ....foresight

That seems to support my point about an emergency where one has no opportunity to use foresight.

spyderski

RV wrote: »

In my ideal world no cycling shoe would contribute to an injury. You guys seem to be defending shoes saying we should tolerate whatever level of safety Shimano want to impose on us.

It seems from a previous post you actually use these "inherently dangerous" pedals yourself. I have been riding clipless pedals, both SPD's and Look (Delta and Keo) for 21 years and have NEVER ONCE had a problem with getting unclipped. Indeed, if cleats get worn the opposite tends to happen i.e. they unclip too easily.

I ride around 8-10,000 km per year - If I thought for one minute that clipless pedals were in any way dangerous, I would instantly stop using them. Perhaps this would be a solution to your problem, rather than expecting Shimano or anyone else to fix a problem that patently does not exist, other than for a tiny minority of people who may have some physiological problem, or who lack the necessary motor skills.

Wishbone Ash

If a cyclists doesn't unclip,he falls.
If a motorist doesn't turn the steering wheel on a bend, he crashes.

Would you say there is a fault with the car in the above scenario?

seamus

RV wrote: »

I think saying a fall is a failure of a shoe/pedal/brain combination doesn't take the nature of an emergency into account. The brain may have very little time to process what's happening and the instinctive response may be one that makes matters worse for the unfortunate trying to unclip. Which to me seems to be case in most falls.
And again I don't think the car pedal analogy is a good one. If it is found that the brake or clutch pedals are a poor design, or too stiff, the manufacturer is likely to come under scrutiny even if the driver made a silly mistake.

You're not trying to say that shimano's design is flawed. You're trying to say that the entire clipless concept is flawed because they all effectively work in the same way.

The car pedal analogy is perfect. Many people accelerate instead of braking in an emergency. Is this a failure of the foot/pedal/brain combination in an emergency, and does it require us to rethink the whole wisdom of using pedals to move the car?

RV

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

... aren't the only manufacturer.... You do have the option of using flat pedals if they don't suit you.

Again - hardly the point. Shoe/pedal combinations are faulty with all manufacturers. That doesn't make it better or even acceptable

droidus

They are not faulty, they work exactly as designed. A fault implies that they are not functioning correctly. Not so.

RV

seamus wrote: »

...the entire clipless concept is flawed

Yes, exactly what I am saying.
And you seem to be saying, yes it is (ever so slightly) flawed but because we know no better we are all happy with it. But me and the Coroner isn't. For my money, that Coroner was a very learned man a head of his time if any.

Kav0777

RV wrote: »

Not having been in the court, one can't be sure but I would not lightly assume the Coroner did not understand. (Though that's not really my argument). I assume the Coroner was familiar with the facts of the case; we have only a court report or perhaps a part of it. My point remains about an inherent weakness in the clip/shoe combination that I feel, could be improved.
Manufacturers are routinely held responsible for faulty products even if people 'chose' to buy them. In my book it is no defence to say "on your own head be it".
I think saying a fall is a failure of a shoe/pedal/brain combination doesn't take the nature of an emergency into account. The brain may have very little time to process what's happening and the instinctive response may be one that makes matters worse for the unfortunate trying to unclip. Which to me seems to be case in most falls.
And again I don't think the car pedal analogy is a good one. If it is found that the brake or clutch pedals are a poor design, or too stiff, the manufacturer is likely to come under scrutiny even if the driver made a silly mistake.

What is the weakness and how can it be improved?

petethedrummer

CramCycle wrote: »

For the same reason coffee cups have a warning of hot liquid. Society have removed the idea of "it's your own fault for not thinking it through" and replaced it with a culture of "its someone s fault but it surely is not mine"

I went looking for this warning on my coffee cup and spilled coffee all over my lap in the process. Now I'm all burned and wet. There was no sign to tell me not to turn the cup horizontally and the lid popped off. Stupid coffee cup designers.

jinkypolly

To me it sounds like the only weakness is the operator.

CramCycle

RV wrote: »

Again - hardly the point. Shoe/pedal combinations are faulty with all manufacturers. That doesn't make it better or even acceptable

How are they faulty though? They do exactly the job they are intended and designed to do. IMO the ability to unclip quickly and safely is a safety feature. IMO, and this won't be true for everyone, I find being clipped in gives me more control. I can pull the bike with more control if needed or unclip if I don't. If a cyclist is unable to achieve either of these, then they should not use these pedal/shoes as it is not suitable for them.

A better analogy is a person who passed their test in an automatic, they more than likely done so because they were unable to change gears suitably or safely. These people should not use manual cars.

spyderski

There is a completely separate issue here with Coroners expressing opinion on factors causing death. Many people do not know that most Coroners are not Doctors, but rather Solicitors. They often have no medical training, and their verdicts quite often comprise a mixture of medical fact (from a Pathologists' report) and personal opinion. I personally know a former County coroner and I can assure you he knows precisely NOTHING about clipless pedals, their safety or otherwise.

nerraw1111

seamus wrote: »

Coroners and Judges are typically very clever people. But they are not scientists or engineers, nor are they experts in 99% of things.

They very often make findings like this which are so far outside their area of expertise that the finding is basically meaningless. It's like a Garda saying, "You're attached to the bike. Jaysus, is that not awful dangerous?".

Coroners do not attach blame. That's not their job. They simply set out the facts of the death, with the help of engineers, scientists, witnesses to establish how someone died. At no point will a coroner say "the pedals killed him."

It's then up to Gardai and judges to attach blame via prosecution/trial.

More details here: http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Olympus-Engineering-boss-Neil-Blood-died-hit-van/story-20512692-detail/story.html

Wishbone Ash

RV wrote: »

Again - hardly the point. Shoe/pedal combinations are faulty with all manufacturers....

...so why do you refer to Shimano only?

RV wrote: »

Its just me then?
I agree that Shimano pedals have a design flaw that sometimes causes people to fall if they get unbalanced. Its happened to me several times and I have seen it happen to others and read of it happening to professional cyclists. If I lose enough momentum on a sharp climb I can fall off. I have seen people fall at traffic lights and it seemed to me it was because they could not get their feet undone.
It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make pedals which allow feet to move as they need to. But as long as folks like us are prepared to tolerate what they are providing, things will not improve.
I sincerely hope Shimano read and consider that letter very carefully and I suggest we will all be safer if they can do something to remedy this. I think making excuses ("you have been warned") is just unhelpful.

RV wrote: »

Hardly like with like. Cups have been designed over time with improved insulation to reduce the risk of burning the carrier and to keep the contents hot because folks like hot coffee. These constitute a safety improvements. If people didn't want hot coffee, then there would be zero risk.

In my ideal world no cycling shoe would contribute to an injury. You guys seem to be defending shoes saying we should tolerate whatever level of safety Shimano want to impose on us.

Wishbone Ash

CramCycle wrote: »

...A better analogy is a person who passed their test in an automatic, they more than likely done so because they were unable to change gears suitably or safely. These people should not use manual cars.

Not a great analogy as it is illegal to drive a manual vehicle with a restricted automatic licence.