Ukraine on the brink of civil war

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

snubbleste

So?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Link? I want to see that boxer fella who is apparently involved with the rebels spark the president out. SMACK.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

My name is URL

snubbleste wrote: »

So?

Really?

snubbleste

My name is URL wrote: »

Really?

Yea!

ChunkyLover_53

Bad for our Gas prices.
Good for agriculture industry.

But at least Call of Duty will get a new storyline.

Banjo String

Phoenix wrote: »

if such were to happen will be felt all over Europe and the potential for a pan European conflict to come out of it

snubbleste wrote: »

So?

You're in Europe. Are you?

whiskeyman

I hope this current turmoil continues so there comes a point the politicians in the Capital have a go at the citizens for not acting enough, just so my morning Metro makes me chuckle with...


Who are you calling Chicken, Kiev?

Wibbs

It's looking interesting alright with a fair risk of a wider conflict if even only politically.

Says I To Bridey

Not a fear of it spreading to Europe. The EU is too weak willed and divided to get involved in something of that magnitude against Russia. They're afraid of doing anything in Syria, not a fear they'd do something or get a consensus to something on Putins doorstep

Karl Stein

Phoenix wrote: »

the potential for a pan European conflict

G'onawayoutathat.

PizzamanIRL

Ah sure it'll be a bit of craic.

My name is URL

snubbleste wrote: »

Yea!

It will drive energy prices up massively for a start. Ukraine is a key route for Russian energy coming into Europe.

And that's not to mention the risk of Russia becoming involved directly with what's going on there. That wouldn't be good for anyone.

P_1

The immediate impact of it here would be an increase in energy prices. It's a bit scary how much we rely on Russian gas when you think about it. Right now I can't see the EU getting involved in it and quite frankly I hope that remains the case. Hopefully it gets sorted diplomatically because a civil war with the tech that is available in Ukraine would make Syria look like a scuffle outside Coppers on a Saturday night.

Hande hoche!

The entire situation seems like a tinderbox. Some fantastic photographs coming out it though. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303670804579233474014492240

mike65

Every January Ukraine has a few weeks of riots and then it calms down.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

nocoverart

snubbleste wrote: »

So?

Muppet!

Aestivalis

Yeah I've been following this for a few months now. It started in november, and theres been MASSIVE protests, riots, and more all over ukraine.

Police have brutally beat protestors, tortured them, and killed people.
Protestors have retaliated, cornered police and beat them senseless.
There's various reports of military involvement too.

And there hasnt been a single thread on AH about it until now? jesus.

mike65

Phoenix wrote: »

????????

Look back over the last decade, there is bother every winter in Ukraine as westies and Mother Russia elements do battle, and the gas gets turned down for a while (making speculators richer).

Muise...

ChunkyLover_53 wrote: »

Bad for our Gas prices.
Good for agriculture industry.

But at least Call of Duty will get a new storyline.

With a Cypress Hill theme please. Every time I hear a headline about it, I think "insane in the Ukraine, insane in the brain..."

markesmith

Are the protests to do with greater freedoms, or is it a case that Russia is tightening the screw? Who would be the two opposing sides in a civil war?

Sorry, but my knowledge of the Ukraine ends circa 1943!

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Hande hoche!

ChunkyLover_53 wrote: »

Bad for our Gas prices.
Good for agriculture industry.

But at least Call of Duty will get a new storyline.

Those wacky UltraNationalists will no doubt be involved.

P_1

markesmith wrote: »

Are the protests to do with greater freedoms, or is it a case that Russia is tightening the screw? Who would be the two opposing sides in a civil war?

Sorry, but my knowledge of the Ukraine ends circa 1943!

Eastern Ukraine seems to want closer ties with Russia while Western Ukraine seems to want closer ties with Europe (with corresponding election results). The current president is of the party that represents the Eastern parts and exited talks to bring Ukraine closer to the EU to sign new agreements with Russia. That is what sparked the current round of protests. The government has since got more and more repressive in the wake of these protests and that's where we find things

c_man

Phoenix wrote: »

the potential for a pan European conflict to come out of it

Will I finally get drafted into the EU army?

MadYaker

I saw some pictures of a member of the opposition wearing a bulletproof vest in parliament.

woodoo

snubbleste wrote: »

So?

You are the coolest of them all..

6781

Russia are to blame for this current unrest. I'm all for the people of Ukraine wanting to stop Russian influences in their country. But most of the violence is organised the far right which is growing larger and at an alarming rate in Ukraine. You will see a lot of red and black flags same design as the current Ukraine flag used by the far right been waved at these protests or on football terraces. Also loads of graffiti with stuff like 14/88 all over the place there.

Ten of Swords

If Russia thought they were going to 'lose' Ukraine to Europe they would intervene pretty quickly.

Western Ukraine may be pro-Europe but the Russian 14th Army is located on Ukraine's western border in Transnistria.

+1 for whoever said the EU wouldn't get involved.

Riddle101

Russia will take care of this, just like they did with Georgia and stamp out any fires the occur. All the while Europe will put their tail between their legs and condemn it all, but won't do anything about it.

Riddle101

Riddle101 wrote: »

Russia will take care of this, just like they did with Georgia and stamp out any fires the occur. All the while Europe will put their tail between their legs and condemn it all, but won't do anything about it.

Sadly this sounds like the most plausible outcome.

The EU - brilliant at encroaching on our national autonomy when we don't fight back, but when the sh*t hits the fan and some crisis management is needed they are seriously lacking in every department.

Worthless.

darkpagandeath

It's not the Soviet era anymore Russia has no more claim to the Ukraine than Europe. Invading a sovereign nation would do more harm than good I think It would be upto the people. Unless the current government askes for aid in shutting down the anti government side. But I think that would lead to civil war.

NoCrackHaving

6781 wrote: »

Russia are to blame for this current unrest. I'm all for the people of Ukraine wanting to stop Russian influences in their country. But most of the violence is organised the far right which is growing larger and at an alarming rate in Ukraine. You will see a lot of red and black flags same design as the current Ukraine flag used by the far right been waved at these protests or on football terraces. Also loads of graffiti with stuff like 14/88 all over the place there.

You sure that's a far right flag? Red and black are traditionally an anarchist symbol.

Riddle101 wrote: »

Russia will take care of this, just like they did with Georgia and stamp out any fires the occur. All the while Europe will put their tail between their legs and condemn it all, but won't do anything about it.

Like what? Go to war with Russia? No one in Europe is interested in going to war over Ukraine. At the end of the day all those war mongering politicians in (France, Italy and UK are guiltiest in this respect) aren't going to start a war with a country that can actually fight back.

NoCrackHaving

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's not the Soviet era anymore Russia has no more claim to the Ukraine than Europe. Invading a sovereign nation would do more harm than good I think It would be upto the people. Unless the current government askes for aid in shutting down the anti government side. But I think that would lead to civil war.

They've already done it in Georgia, Moldova and a multitude of Russian republics that want independance.

darkpagandeath

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

They've already done it in Georgia, Moldova and a multitude of Russian republics that want independance.

You mean the places no were near Europe at all ? This is on the Doorstep a little more worrying. As I'm sure the old phrase breathing room maybe used if any military action is taken by them.

hjkl

Anyone with an understanding of Ukraine willing to post up a background the political situation in over there. My knowledge of the country goes as far as they're flag is blue and yellow and Andry Shevchenko is from there.

P_1

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean the places no were near Europe at all ? This is on the Doorstep a little more worrying. As I'm sure the old phrase breathing room maybe used if any military action is taken by them.

Pedantically speaking, Moldova shares a border with Romania and was a part of it up to WW2. Having said that it doesn't quite have the same strategic importance as Ukraine does to the EU. TBH I can't see the EU and Russia going to war over it but about 100 years ago people were saying the same about Serbia...

Ten of Swords

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Unless the current government askes for aid in shutting down the anti government side. But I think that would lead to civil war.

This pretty much sums it up. If things ever escalated too far out of the control of the government you can be fairly sure Yanukovych would be on the phone to Moscow asking for 'peacekeepers'

Sulla Felix

Ten of Swords wrote: »

This pretty much sums it up. If things ever escalated too far out of the control of the government you can be fairly sure Yanukovych would be on the phone to Moscow asking for 'peacekeepers'

He wouldn't be asking, he'd be told to stand in front of a camera and say he asked, quite different.

Ten of Swords

Sulla Felix wrote: »

He wouldn't be asking, he'd be told to stand in front of a camera and say he asked, quite different.

He would be asking, quite freely.

This is the source of much of the current protests - he pulled the plug on a pro-European trade agreement in favour of some closer ties with Russia, sweetened by some debt forgiveness from Russia over Ukraine's unpaid natural gas debts.

6781

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

You sure that's a far right flag? Red and black are traditionally an anarchist symbol.

Yes. It was the flag used by the Ukraine resistance during WWII. They fought against all invaders Russian, German, and so on. It has been adopted by the far right.

To say its a east/west divide is a bit simplistic. There have been many rallies, protest and riots against the government in eastern cities too. I agree with the points of the EU not wanting to get involved.

newmug

What the fluck is it about Russia and always wanting to be a bully? Why the fluck cant they be on the good side for once? They essentially are "westerners" in that they are white, European (well, the western half is, geographically speaking), mainly Christian, and fully up to date with education and technology etc. They are as much a first world country as any other. You would think sanity and reason would prevail, but no, they just throw their weight around because they can. Arseholes.

hjkl

newmug wrote: »

What the fluck is it about Russia and always wanting to be a bully? Why the fluck cant they be on the good side for once? They essentially are "westerners" in that they are white, European (well, the western half is, geographically speaking), mainly Christian, and fully up to date with education and technology etc. They are as much a first world country as any other. You would think sanity and reason would prevail, but no, they just throw their weight around because they can. Arseholes.

Do actually have any idea what you are talking about?

goose2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Sadly this sounds like the most plausible outcome.

The EU - brilliant at encroaching on our national autonomy when we don't fight back, but when the sh*t hits the fan and some crisis management is needed they are seriously lacking in every department.

Worthless.

Looks like those clowns in Brussels did it again. What a bunch of clowns.

Jonny7

Deleted User wrote: »

Sadly this sounds like the most plausible outcome.

The EU - brilliant at encroaching on our national autonomy when we don't fight back, but when the sh*t hits the fan and some crisis management is needed they are seriously lacking in every department.

Worthless.

What is "Europe" supposed to do exactly?

We going to stop trading and impose punitive measures if Yanukovych doesn't "join us"..?

No. This is Ukraine's choice. There are those that are fiercely pro-European and those that a fiercely pro-Russian. The country is torn, hence the recent issues.

Ten of Swords

newmug wrote: »

What the fluck is it about Russia and always wanting to be a bully? Why the fluck cant they be on the good side for once? They essentially are "westerners" in that they are white, European (well, the western half is, geographically speaking), mainly Christian, and fully up to date with education and technology etc. They are as much a first world country as any other. You would think sanity and reason would prevail, but no, they just throw their weight around because they can. Arseholes.

Wow, I don't even know where to begin with that...

Riddle101

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

Like what? Go to war with Russia? No one in Europe is interested in going to war over Ukraine. At the end of the day all those war mongering politicians in (France, Italy and UK are guiltiest in this respect) aren't going to start a war with a country that can actually fight back.

I know that, and that's my point. A lot of international condemnation by Europe but nothing will happen.

Of course that being said. When Joseph "Tito" Broz had his famous split with Stallin in the late 40's. Yugoslavia stood strong even when faced with the possibility of war with the Soviet Union. Nothing ever came of it, though because Yugoslavia was neutral but Stallin feared involvement from the West which he wasn't ready for. I do believe that if Europe showed a joint effort, they could probably stop any further escalation, and I don't believe Russia wants a war with Europe either.

Frank Lee Midere

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Wow, I don't even know where to begin with that...

Go on. Try.

Frank Lee Midere

Europe won't do anything. In fact we wouldn't do anything if Russia were to invade the Ukraine and roll on into the Eastern block. We need the gas. We like the good life. East Germany might be safe enough though as Germany is Western.