Staking New Trees

bbam

Hi all.
I haven't gardened much in the last few years after being badly injured in an accident.
As a start to my orchard I have 12 bare root apple trees on the way from FutureForests and have a lad lined up to to the digging when they arrive. Have access to farmyard manure so will mulch with that.

My question is on staking.
Traditionally trees were staked about 3tf up. I've done that in the past myself. But I did read it was better for them to stake them low down and allow the flexing to strengthen them.

What are people doing?
It's a bit windy here so I'm tempted to steak them near the 3ft.

sawdoubters

http://www.timaustengardendesigns.com/2013/01/tree-stakes-and-ties/

magicbastarder

i tend to stake trees with a stake driven diagonally into the ground, so it is clear of the roots of the tree, and stake about a foot above ground.
remember, the stake is there to protect the rootball, not the trunk.

redser7

True enough I've read more and more that staking them down low with a stake at 45 degrees is the accepted wisdom these days.

bbam

I think I'll stick with what I've done berfore and stake at ~3ft
Last thing I want is roots being disturbed, that is my fear with low staking, so much of the tree is above the staking ponit it gives leverage against the root system..

Oldtree

Stake the tree as low as possible on the trunk (maby 1 foot) at a 45 degree angle, tied firmly in place with a rubber tie. The stake is there to hold the roots in position. trees staked higher up will end up having a weakness built into the stem. Trees with a stake adjacent to their roots can have over a third of the root system damaged by the removal of the stake. The rubber ties in the above picture are the only correct thing in that picture, even his tying of the tie is far too loose and may as well not be there.

Oldtree

bbam wrote: »

I think I'll stick with what I've done berfore and stake at ~3ft
Last thing I want is roots being disturbed, that is my fear with low staking, so much of the tree is above the staking ponit it gives leverage against the root system..

Professional advice above bbam

Oldtree

RHS advice for you too with a picture:D
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=208

bbam

thanks guys..
plan is friday or saturday for planting..

bbam

Oldtree wrote: »

Professional advice above bbam

sorry.. was speed reading on the phone and didnt realise I just kinda repeated what you said

Oldtree

bbam wrote: »

thanks guys..
plan is friday or saturday for planting..

Lovely weather for it now, getting the planting thirst myself

bbam

Oldtree wrote: »

Lovely weather for it now, getting the planting thirst myself

Weather wasn't soooo lovely thismorning when we started
However it faired off and we got them in and staked...

Futureforests sent a really nice selection of traditional Irish varieties of apples all on vigerous root stock..
I have place in my "orchard" for another 10 full size trees... I'm now thinking of just biting the bullet and ordering them next week rather than waiting till next year...

Oldtree

bbam wrote: »

Weather wasn't soooo lovely thismorning when we started
However it faired off and we got them in and staked...

Futureforests sent a really nice selection of traditional Irish varieties of apples all on vigerous root stock..
I have place in my "orchard" for another 10 full size trees... I'm now thinking of just biting the bullet and ordering them next week rather than waiting till next year...

Although things are budding ahead of normal, pruned the dog roses last week and their buds were opening, it should be safe to plant for the next few weeks. I would normally have the last day of Feb as my cut off point (trees start to lay out roots after that point) but maby a little earlier this year.

My Potatoes

bbam wrote: »

I think I'll stick with what I've done berfore and stake at ~3ft
Last thing I want is roots being disturbed, that is my fear with low staking, so much of the tree is above the staking ponit it gives leverage against the root system..

Diagonal staking, or staking at 45' degrees, as per the RHS link, is for trees that are being planted with a rootball. Same with H-staking.
These do no apply to you as you're tree are bare root, aren't they? Hence there is no fear of disturbing the roots.

Marhay70

I remember Alan Titchmarsh advisng to put in the stake diagonally and also to ensure the top of the stake faced into the prevailing wind.

redser7

My Potatoes wrote: »

Diagonal staking, or staking at 45' degrees, as per the RHS link, is for trees that are being planted with a rootball. Same with H-staking.
These do no apply to you as you're tree are bare root, aren't they? Hence there is no fear of disturbing the roots.

How is there no fear of hitting roots?

My Potatoes

redser7 wrote: »

How is there no fear of hitting roots?

Put simply, you'll dig a hole, drive a stake vertically in the centre, place the stem of the tree close to the stake, spread the roots evenly around the hole (and past the stake on that side), backfill with soil, etc, and so on.

Oldtree

My Potatoes wrote: »

Put simply, you'll dig a hole, drive a stake vertically in the centre, place the stem of the tree close to the stake, spread the roots evenly around the hole (and past the stake on that side), backfill with soil, etc, and so on.

Q. and tell me what happens when you go to remove a vertical tree stake after a while with a root system firmly in place?
A. You destroy up to a third of said root system :rolleyes:

A vertical stake went out with the stone age, again I draw your attention to the RHS and the nice picture they provide, can't be clearer than that.

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=208

I often heard many reasons for doing things the old way, and using the excuse "never did my trees any harm" (such as Titchmarsh's tree pruning methods :rolleyes:) and it never ceases to amaze me what trees can recover from! Why anyone would not plant a tree in accord with the proper current professional RHS advice, is beyond me. For the long term health of your tree it is important that this advice is followed. Anything less and you are doing your tree an injustice, it's not like its any extra work!

My Potatoes

Oldtree wrote: »

Q. and tell me what happens when you go to remove a vertical tree stake after a while with a root system firmly in place?

"A while" is a bit vague but suggests an insufficient amount of time. I would wait for two or three years. By this time the roots will be firmly established and the tree fully anchored. The wooden stake (being made from natural but non-living material) will have deteriorated and will not be gripping the ground as tightly as it had been. Stand facing the stake with the tree on the other side. Place one foot on either side of the stake, close to it. Gently ease the stake up out of the ground. In the event that the stake had been driving in too far in the first place, it may be necessary to gently rock the stake to the left, to the right, then towards you. Then again, gently ease the stake up out of the ground.

Oldtree wrote: »

A. You destroy up to a third of said root system :rolleyes:

Maybe you go about things in a ham-fisted manner? Or, it could be one of the following reasons:
You are removing the stake too soon.
You drove the stake in too far in the first place.
You didn't firm the soil correctly back when you were planting it.

Oldtree wrote: »

A vertical stake went out with the stone age, again I draw your attention to the RHS and the nice picture they provide, can't be clearer than that.
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=208

I draw your attention to the RHS and the nice text they provide, can't be clearer than that.
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=208
To quote "...use long, vertical stake..."
I realise that reading went out during the stone age, but alas, a picture does not tell a thousand words.

Oldtree wrote: »

Why anyone would not plant a tree in accord with the proper current professional RHS advice, is beyond me. For the long term health of your tree it is important that this advice is followed.

Maybe because they just looked at the pictures, clicked on the "Like" icon, then poked someone?

When I studied for my RHS exams, the "proper current professional advice" for a bare root tree was a single vertical stake. The only places I've ever seen an angled stake used are on slopes or Celtic-era housing estates/developments.

redser7

What's the attitude all about?

Oldtree

My Potatoes wrote: »

"A while" is a bit vague but suggests an insufficient amount of time. I would wait for two or three years. By this time the roots will be firmly established and the tree fully anchored. The wooden stake (being made from natural but non-living material) will have deteriorated and will not be gripping the ground as tightly as it had been. Stand facing the stake with the tree on the other side. Place one foot on either side of the stake, close to it. Gently ease the stake up out of the ground. In the event that the stake had been driving in too far in the first place, it may be necessary to gently rock the stake to the left, to the right, then towards you. Then again, gently ease the stake up out of the ground.

Maybe you go about things in a ham-fisted manner? Or, it could be one of the following reasons:
You are removing the stake too soon.
You drove the stake in too far in the first place.
You didn't firm the soil correctly back when you were planting it.

I draw your attention to the RHS and the nice text they provide, can't be clearer than that.
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=208
To quote "...use long, vertical stake..."
I realise that reading went out during the stone age, but alas, a picture does not tell a thousand words.

Maybe because they just looked at the pictures, clicked on the "Like" icon, then poked someone?

When I studied for my RHS exams, the "proper current professional advice" for a bare root tree was a single vertical stake. The only places I've ever seen an angled stake used are on slopes or Celtic-era housing estates/developments.

I'm not sure where to start with this one so I'll just do a few points:

If the stake can be gently eased out then it was not doing its job in the first place and is less than useless, and the point of having a stake has been missed, a similar issue is loose tree ties.
The stake when removed as you suggest leaves behind a hole (and no stake) in the ground that the tree roots would have come to rely on for support, immediate to the trunk.
The texture and structure of soil can take up to 15 years to repair after being disturbed.
The op has trees that can be posted, and are not full standards.
"A while" can cover 1-2 seasons.
Contrary to your opinion I always felt that "A picture is worth a thousand words"
It is a pity you did not study arboriculture (a profession) as I did, thus complementing your general knowledge about trees.

My Potatoes

redser7 wrote: »

What's the attitude all about?

I've a low tolerance for self contradictory types. Oldtree professes professionalism yet advises the opposite.
I get the impression he/she has never planted a tree, though it's obvious that he/she is accomplished at digging himself/herself (into) a hole!

My Potatoes

Oldtree wrote: »

If the stake can be gently eased out then it was not doing its job.

After two or three years the stake has done its job. Which is why it's being removed.
Incidentally, soil structure can easily be changed by the adding of organic matter, etc. You are correct about soil texture.

Oldtree

My Potatoes wrote: »

I've a low tolerance for self contradictory types. Oldtree professes professionalism yet advises the opposite.
I get the impression he/she has never planted a tree, though it's obvious that he/she is accomplished at digging himself/herself (into) a hole!

you are wrong and clearly have an agenda.

Oldtree

My Potatoes wrote: »

After two or three years the stake has done its job. Which is why it's being removed.
Incidentally, soil structure can easily be changed by the adding of organic matter, etc. You are correct about soil texture.

Yes the stake should have done its job after 1-2-3 years which is why it is removed. Your point???? If it comes out easily then it has been loose and not holding the roots in place, thus not doing its job.

The only thing that fixes or mends soil structure or texture is weathering and/or worm action. If you implying that soil structure can be changed by digging in some organic matter then you are looking at this simplistically and you are talking about destroying the soil structure/texture.

redser7

I'm locking this thread. Hopefully the OP got what they wanted.