Friend and his dating woahs becoming a little annoying.

Est28

Hi,
So I have an issue with my friend. Before I say this, I just want to say I know the guy quite a while and he's a good guy in general. It's just that this issue seems to take over every conversation lately and no matter how much my friends and I try to help or offer advice (and we have done at length), he just doesn't listen and we have to hear about it constantly. It's becoming frustrating.

The basic problem is that he hasn't had much luck with women. But women, either, involving him or any of us, is the ONLY thing he wants to talk about, it's like he's obsessed lately.

Some stuff that has happened:

- He always complains how he's "such a nice guy and everyone else is an asshole, why don't they like me". Which is ok, all guys have had that frustatration but it's a constant topic.

- He never asks girls out or even strikes up conversations when out. He asks us to chat them up for him and gets pissed if we don't. If he see's us talking to a girl, he will try to blow us out or moans that "he really wanted them".

- He has a habit of befriending girls my friends or I have dated. I don't understand why. But it appears he's been texting and meeting up with girls we have dated in the past and has a habit of inviting them on nights out with us without telling anyone. So when they show up, it does create some awkward moments, but he just fawns them with attention, puts on a show, starts throwing his credit card and cash around and putting on a show of what a great guy he is compared to us.

- If he meets ANY woman. He will immediately be obsessed with her. He will talk about her and texts us constantly about her. He bugged me to set him up with a female friend of mine for months (I hate getting involved in setups). When I asked how the date went, he complained again, how he was such a nice guy but she wasn't flirting with him and was all pissed. When I asked if he flirted or made any moves he complains she wouldn't have liked it if he did. He takes no initiative. I'm all for girls being equal but won't most girls still sort of wait for the guy to take the lead a little?

- He has a habit of befriending all these girls, we'll hear about them for months. "Oh looks, X texted me..." (though he's probably sent her 10 beforehand)... but he won't ask them out of make his feelings known in any way. He wants to be their best friend and seems to hope they'll just see what a nice guy he is and fall in love. But what inevitably happens is that they think he's just a nice guy with no interest in them and when they meet other guys, he flips out. We've gone through this several times now.

- He acts weird around girls. Like, TOO nice. As in he will literally drive 20 miles in the opposite direction to pick them up or take them somewhere or buy them things. He tries to "protect" them when there is no reason to... it's nice, but just sort of... over the top. But in the act, it's like he's trying to show how great he is, while all other guys (including me and my friends) are bad guys and players and whatever. Which is sort of crappy I feel.

- He makes constant assumptions about women and my other friends and I. For example, he saw a facebook checkin last week where I was at an event posted by a female friend. Next I had a bunch of texts insinuating "Why would you be going to that... Oh X is there... yeah, I know why you went now... blah blah". In reality I was there because I was invited and had nothing to do with this girl. She is a friend and nothing else... but it's the constant talk of this that gets me.

- If any of us DO meet a girl he also gets pissy... and wants to know our "tricks". We've explained a hundred times now that there is no "trick", we just struck up a conversation, and that's all, but he doesn't listen... he thinks we act like assholes and use PUA tricks or something.

But the crux is... he's like this because whenever he obsesses over a girl, it never goes anywhere as he never asks them out or tries to make a move. Then he gets angry and upset and it starts all over again with another girl.

Now, it's not like any my other friends and I are casanovas, not even close, but he seems to go overboard with things. And when he asks for advice and we give it, he won't listen. Like he'll ask if he should ask a girl out... if we say, go for it, he won't ask them out.
He keeps asking "Is this girl into me... we have such a connection... etc..." but we can't say anything to him. It's all in his head. We seem to hurt his feelings no matter what we say...

I kinda feel like if he actually got a girlfriend he might just stop obsessing. But it's like we have to take him by the hand to do so. Friends can only help so much.

I really don't want to come off like a plonker by saying all this. We always liked the guy, it's just getting to a point where I could really just go out for the night and not invite him as I know what will follow. But we're trying to not let it get to that as we'd all feel bad doing that.

MJ23

God help the poor girl that does get with him.
That lad would only put a downer on any night out. He doesn't listen to any advice and gets all green eyed when someone gets a bit of luck.
I wouldn't be texting him on a Friday afternoon about going out any more.
Tell him to grow a pair of balls and ask a few women out, or shut up about it.

Merkin

He sounds emotionally stunted and someone who has difficulty relating to or having a normal conversation (without an agenda) with the opposite sex.

I personally would take him for a pint and give him a stern talking to about his behaviour and how irritating and inappropriate it is. I think being totally honest and telling him he is acting like a numpty is the only thing you can really do in this instance.

Est28

See the thing is...
In one way I see what his issue is. As you guys said, he just doesn't know how to talk to the opposite sex. He can be absolutely great chatting away with the guys but then a woman is around and he's a totally different person.

I get it, in a way. When I was a teenager I was the same in some ways. I'd chat away with the guys then get all flustered if a girl I liked was around. But like I said, I'm not GREAT with girls, but I sort of got over all that over the years and just chat away to people, guys and girls as normal, and learned not to obsess over someone I am not dating.
But I am not far off 30 now and neither is he... we aren't 15 or 16 anymore so while I understand where the issue is, at some point when you're that shy with girls, it gets to the point that you just say "screw it" and go for it, get shot down, take it on the chin and move on with your life... then it doesn't seem so hard... he just seems to have it built up into this huge deal in his head.

We've sat him down many many times and tried to help. But nothing gets through.

As I write this he's texting me about that date. He got a text from the girl saying she had a nice time and thanking him and is asking me to dissect the text and what she means, etc, etc....
All I can tell is she had a nice time out and she said so... so he should just ask her out again but just not be so shy, give her a goodnight kiss next time, show he's interested too....
I mean it's good progress that she seemed to like the date with him but I can't really dissect it anymore than I have. Ask her out and show he's interested. But it's like he wants me to take him by the hand through it all....

Merkin

But he's behaving like a simpering, mildly histrionic and hugely neurotic pubescent girl.

You can't hold his hand ad nauseum. What if this poor unfortunate girl needs her head examined and decides to actually continue dating him? Are you going to have to be there for moral guidance and next-step advice then? Where will it end? Will he text you during foreplay perhaps? Or with a 'I'm in, what now?' :rolleyes:

I appreciate you want to help your mate but you are unwittingly feeding his neuroses, stop with the hand-holding and constant advice. He's 30, he's a big lad who is obviously not emotionally developed but we all had to find our own way and learn from our own mistakes, he's just come to it all over a decade later than most people. If you stop replying to his constant neediness he WILL have to figure stuff out by himself and in the long run you'll be doing him a favour.

Mint Aero

Have ye tried ignoring him? I don't mean defriending him but whenever he goes off on one just ignore him, don't respond, just stare into space, don't help him, don't humour him, reply by changing topic to something irrelevant or something.

It usually works for me for a whole cohort of irritating personalities. They eventually get the clue and adapt to acting somewhat normal but you have to be persistant.

But, seriously wow, I'm tired from just reading all that.

ManOfMystery

I know someone a bit like this, and it is - for want of a better word - totally exhausting having to listen to them.

I think it's time for some tough love, you'll have to spell out a few harsh life facts to your mate. I think the softly softly approach is only going to lead to more years of exactly the same behaviour.

Big Bag of Chips

Est28 wrote: »

He got a text from the girl saying she had a nice time and thanking him and is asking me to dissect the text and what she means, etc, etc....
All I can tell is she had a nice time out and she said so....

And that's all you should say! No need to continue on with the detailed...

Est28 wrote: »

so he should just ask her out again but just not be so shy, give her a goodnight kiss next time, show he's interested too....

Est28 wrote: »

But it's like he wants me to take him by the hand through it all....

Of course he does... because that's what you do!!!!!!

Stop doing it. You are giving out about him expecting you to do all this for him, yet you continue to do it all. If he sends you the text and asks you what does she mean, keep your answers short. "All I can tell is she had a nice time out and she said so...." It won't happen over night, but if you start being a little shorter with him, and do less hand-holding, then he'll eventually have to take the hint and get on with it. He might go into a strop and sulk and say you all have it sorted etc etc etc.. but is that any different to what he does now, when you ARE offering all this time and advice?

You can't change him. You can't suddenly make him be great with the ladies! But you can back off. He is the person he is. He will probably always be that person, regardless of your help or not. You offering him help or not is not going to change him. All it is doing is frustrating you. So stop doing it. He will still be the same person, but you won't be getting so annoyed by offering all this advice that he never takes anyway.

denhaagenite

I have a friend like this. 32 years of age and texting incessantly. He works in a very large multinational so dating within colleagues isn't unusual but some of the stuff he comes out with- I've nicknamed him "Hello Kitty" because he's like a schoolgirl sometimes.

It was fine until a few months ago we went to a music festival in a group and he completely ruined the whole thing. I had been looking forward to it for months and he didn't even know who was playing. We would all be singing, dancing and looking at the stage and all he wanted was for someone to go stand with him while he tried to pick up girls, chatted up girls he met previously etc etc. He had us all absolutely tortured, trying to drag us away from stages to go to crappy student all night discos.

It was ridiculous and I snapped. I told him there was no point in being friends with him if he only wanted me around so that he didn't look like a loner. It's taken us a while to get back to normal but a bit of distance does help. I probably should have been more tactful and definitely should have had a word with him before we went, so you can use my hindsight if you like. He's still the same as he was but he knows my stance on it now:

1. If they're 10 years younger than you, they may not have a lot in common with you or your friends
2. I am not your wingman
3. A night out does not revolve around your need to find Ms Right/ Ms Right Now
4. If you have sent more than 3 texts to someone in an hour, refrain from texting for another hour
5. Don't try to guess if someone likes you, ask them on a date
6. If you like someone, ask them on a date
7. If someone refuses a date, move on
8. Someone who says "Let's just be friends" does not want to be your girlfriend

Hope this helps :pac:

Merkin

denhaagenite wrote: »

I have a friend like this. 32 years of age and texting incessantly. He works in a very large multinational so dating within colleagues isn't unusual but some of the stuff he comes out with- I've nicknamed him "Hello Kitty" because he's like a schoolgirl sometimes.

Classic

December2012

You could say something along the lines of "stop asking me for advice will ye, ye never take any advice I give ye so it's a waste of both our times. Now, what about Liverpool v Everton?"

Refuse to talk to him about women.

Refuse to talk to him about his love life.

He will not listen to you.

The Corinthian

Best way to deal with such people is not to suger-coat your advice. If you're blunt, direct and what you advise is the verbal equivalent of slapping your friend about the head with a dead haddock, then they're not going to be coming back for more.

This is because your friend is seeking 'advice' under false pretences. He's not looking for advice, he's looking for someone to listen to him and ideally also give him some validation. If you give him advice, but leave out the fluffy stuff that'll make him feel better, then you'll quickly find he'll stop seeking it.

For example:

Est28 wrote: »

- He always complains how he's "such a nice guy and everyone else is an asshole, why don't they like me". Which is ok, all guys have had that frustatration but it's a constant topic.

Bullshìt. The nice guy complaint is a myth used by largely boring, shy and self-absorbed fools to rationalize why women don't go for them. And the proof? Because you're bored with his constant whining, and you're his friend!

But what inevitably happens is that they think he's just a nice guy with no interest in them and when they meet other guys, he flips out. We've gone through this several times now.

They probably thought you were gay. This will get him upset, no doubt, at which point you ask him, did you give them any reason to think you are not? QED.

- If any of us DO meet a girl he also gets pissy... and wants to know our "tricks". We've explained a hundred times now that there is no "trick", we just struck up a conversation, and that's all, but he doesn't listen... he thinks we act like assholes and use PUA tricks or something.

The trick is not being the human equivalent of rohypnol.

Problem is that he's not being nice, that's just a fantasy he's created for himself so that he doesn't have to face up to the problem and change himself. Problem is that he's boring, shy and lazy where it comes to women. Probably where it comes to a lot of things, is my guess.

Ultimately, you have to be blunt with him about this, otherwise he's just going to continue to suckle at the teat of his friends sympathy. If you are blunt, either he'll just keep it to himself in future, but not change (my guess), actually look to deal with his problems with women or hang onto his nice guy fantasy and distance himself from you or anyone else who has been direct with him.

Finally, something else stuck me:

- He never asks girls out or even strikes up conversations when out. He asks us to chat them up for him and gets pissed if we don't. If he see's us talking to a girl, he will try to blow us out or moans that "he really wanted them".

Between that and how he latches onto your ex's, I'd not trust this guy, if I were you. So unsuccessful and so dependant on others, is he in his love life, that he's the classic type who'll befriend his friend's girlfriends or wives, then try making a move on them or get unhealthily obsessed with them.

Est28

Thank you.

Yes, the thing about looking at women myself or other friends have known is very weird. It would be more of an issue only we know because of his history he's pretty harmless to the girls, he just develops a crush and it goes nowhere. It would be much more concerning if he was actually getting with these girls but it still creates some awkward moments.

I know "bro code" is silly but there's still some unspoken rules between friends that it's just not really good to break and dealing with ex's or things like that are one of them. Most guys just get it but some don't and it leads to some tension.

You're right about other things too. The "nice guy" thing is draining. He's only being "nice" to actually try get what he wants. He's not really being nice to them out of the goodness of his heart which also just makes me uncomfortable. Thats not really being "nice" for the sake of being nice.

Unfortunately, we've spoken to him a lot, a we've tried much tough love. It just falls on deaf ears.

The Corinthian

Est28 wrote: »

Yes, the thing about looking at women myself or other friends have known is very weird.

I've seen it before, typically from guys who either can't do relationships because of severe Madonna-Whore syndromes (they can't respect any woman who'd have sex with them) or lazy-shy, like your friend. Yes, there's an overlap between the two, I've noticed.

Indeed, you need to consider that for all his claims of being nice and being a gentleman, I suspect he's not terribly nice when women are not present - and even some of his comments you've quoted here smack of misogyny beneath the surface.

That's another problem with the 'nice guy' defence; they're often boring to women because they can't relate to them in the first place. All those 'assholes' and 'bastards' who do well with women, tend to because they actually can relate to them.

One way or another, his tendency to go after other men's women, be it passively or even actively, will adversely affect his relationships with other men; either because if he does get one of them, this is not going to play well, especially if in doing so the woman in question cuckolds his friend, or because he'll grow bitter and jealous of the friend who is with a woman that he lacks the balls to be with and this will cause tension.

Unfortunately, we've spoken to him a lot, a we've tried much tough love. It just falls on deaf ears.

Then what will likely happen is that your group will drift away from him over time. It'll start with his not being invited out on certain nights out. Then most nights out. A conflict, probably due to his obsessions with other guys girls getting out of hand, with one of your group, and because the rest will be looking for an excuse to exclude him anyway, will likely accelerate the process of his expulsion from the group.

But don't worry, he's so self-absorbed that unless it happens very obviously overnight, he won't even notice and may even convince himself that you guys were holding him back.

Sorry, but I suspect that's what's going to happen. Might take a while though.

Idle Passerby

The Corinthian wrote: »

Bullshìt. The nice guy complaint is a myth used by largely boring, shy and self-absorbed fools to rationalize why women don't go for them. And the proof? Because you're bored with his constant whining, and you're his friend!


Problem is that he's not being nice, that's just a fantasy he's created for himself so that he doesn't have to face up to the problem and change himself. Problem is that he's boring, shy and lazy where it comes to women. Probably where it comes to a lot of things, is my guess.

Exactly! This guy doesn't strike me as nice at all. He sounds like a self obsessed, whinger and a simpering doormat. He needs a good blunt dose of reality.

LegacyUser

op i was in your mates shoes at one time(and still sort of am) basically he is friends with all these women but doesnt know how to make a move on them hoping that one of them will make a move on him. he probably doesnt know the basics of dating. is it possible that you tell him the abc's? you have to watch what way you say it to him as you might come across as patronising but he is probably too embarrassed too ask. maybe tell him not to be so desperate as this puts women off.

Est28

I'm sorry to bump this.

I appreciate the advice given by all. We've tried talking to him in the past in all manners.
We've tried the softly softly apporach but obviously feeds into his pity-me attitude.
We've tried the tough love approach and he literally looks like he's going to punch one of us in the face he gets so nuts.
We've tried ignoring him and it makes him get more and more dramatic until someone pays attention.
We've tried just giving him general advice of dealing with or talking to women but it falls on deaf ears.

Sorry but this is only a rant of how our weekend went...

This weekend we tried our best to just ignore it and get on with our own plans but he literally ruined it. It went so far when he was being ignored that we had to step in and stop him getting in a fist fight, to draw attention.
He distrupted our plans... he sulked, we got stories back 3rd hand from some female friends which he had apparently told them about me and the other guys, trying to big himself up and make us look bad.

Then he followed a girl he has a crush on around like a puppy while she was literally running from him. Again, we ignored it but one of the girls asked us to have a word because he was literally creeping her friend out.

He's all huffy right now because the girl he has a crush on is not interested in him but he insists they have this "huge emotional connection" which is so made up in his head it's actually creepy now.

I really can't deal with it anymore. Myself and the other guys were having a good time just chatting over some beers, as you do, and the amount of drama coming our way was just nuts, we're not the types to ever get into drama with ourselves or anyone and we just don't appreciate this guy being so over the top now.

Sorry, rant over.

December2012

Would you consider ditching this guy as a mate? Or start to?

Est28

I have been hoping for a while now we could just get him to see some sense by talking to him and he'd start to "get it" but this weekend was like a whole new level...

... I'm pretty close to the point now where I would just not let him know about our plans next week and just avoid at all costs. I feel bad doing that sort of thing which I why I wanted to do something about it but like I said, it all falls on deaf ears and it's coming to that point now.

Merkin

I'd seriously stop inviting him out if I were you. You don't need hassle like that on a supposedly relaxing and fun night out. I'd be cooling his heels at this stage.

Idle Passerby

Ditch him. You've tried everything to help him and he's rejected it all and insists on making everyone around him uncomfortable. There's social awkwardness and then there's being a self absorbed arse. Your friend is the latter.

thefeatheredcat

Est28 wrote: »

I have been hoping for a while now we could just get him to see some sense by talking to him and he'd start to "get it" but this weekend was like a whole new level...

You're really right on it being a whole new level OP. The contrast of examples in your first few posts and behaviour described in the latest post suggests a worrying and serious change in behaviour in your friend.

He wasn't getting what he wanted from positive attention seeking, and when he was ignored he resorted to negative attention seeking behaviours, such as trying to get himself into a fight. That is probably brought on by insecurity of losing ye as friends and him feeling insecure in not being the center of attention. The following the woman was plain creepy though, I don't think I would leave "my worst enemy" in his company because the level of creepiness is so extreme and he seems quite unpredictable in the negative sort of way.

I think you are being manipulated to stay friends with him and feeling pity for him, blackmailed even.

This guy sounds, as Merkin put it, emotionally stunted but I think there's a lot more to it than that. There's something so unsettling to me about this guy that I think from what happened over the weekend, you are going to see the other side, possibly the truer nature of this guy come out. He was pretty nasty, vindictive in stuff he said to others, probably painting himself the victim - there was something very unsettling too about him trying to have him surrounded by women, as though to express he is a king / a god, like he is Gaius Baltar in Battlestar Gallactica that I can't quite express but it made me feel uneasy when I thought about it collectively in all posts with his behaviour - where things have concerned you and your friends.

I think the wisest thing you and your friends can do is end the friendship and tell him why, use the weekend as an example. And I'd keep his behaviour of the weekend in mind for the simple reason I think there's a nasty streak in this guy, I would not be surprised if he resorted to bad mouthing you all, giving ye a bad reputation, and looking to bring havoc to your lives in some sort of revenge.

There is to me a major difference between what you have described previously and your latest post, it actually set off alarm bells in my head on his behaviour and in it escalating. I know you do perceive him generally as a nice enough and harmless guy, but something makes me uneasy about the flip switched behaviour, caused by insecurity and in being ignored.

Est28

Thanks feathered cat....

Yes, it' very much like you described. He'll want to be surrounded by women then text or facebook or whatever to try give the perception he's surrounded by women on a night out when really he's not "with" them, when you know the full story but to anyone outside the circle it looks like he's the man.

A part I didn't go into detail on is this... I knew him through another circle and introduced him to another circle of my friends, these are the people I hang out with most. The thing is, we all know each other from the same place, and it's not like I want him to be the "outsider", I invited him to meet these people, it's just that he only knows them a few months and he acts like he is the ring-leader now because of all the women around him, but I told you the story of how he knows these women or why he hangs with them... I just don't like it and have no time for someone acting "the big man" especially when theres nothing to back it up. We all know "that" person.

These guys though, don't really know everything that's maybe said behind their backs or how he is as they don't know the full story of everything.

For example... we tend to all chat away during the day on a group facebook chat. It's usually just some banter or jokes to get through the workday. However, since he thinks he's "dating" one of the girls in the group and also has interest in the other girls I mentioned from the weekend, he's now split the chat to leave her and some of the girls out... like he's trying to seperate the group, when it's not his to seperate. The other guys haven't quite picked up on why he's doing it though, it's just simple things like that but very annoying and weird. There's nothing to hide in our chats from this girl but he insists she must not know about "all the girls he's seeing". It's just weird at this stage.

Sorry I'm ranting, I just feel like I can't get this off my chest with anyone I know without causing a bit of drama.

The Corinthian

Look, you've essentially come to the conclusion that for the good of your social group your 'friend' will have to be purged. I suspect convincing your other friends, in the group, will take longer. So it'll likely take a while, but if your 'friend' is really that bad, eventually your other friends will come to the same conclusion as you and get over whatever residual guilt and loyalty they may still have.

tinkerbell

Good God OP. Life is too short to waste any more of it on this idiot. His antics at the weekend are seriously screwed up. I find the fact that he followed around that poor girl all night when she wasn't interested to be very unsettling ... And then a while later he nearly gets in a fist fight ... I'd be worried that something else could happen here in that he gets these notions in his head that some girl likes him and he doesn't take no for an answer. Ok maybe that's being a bit dramatic but it's cause for concern if he's following girls around who have told him they are not interested.

I would cut him out of your life and also give the others a heads up, especially the girls, as he sounds unhinged and you don't know what he'll do when ye tell him that he won't be in your circle of friends anymore.

thee glitz

It might help if he heard the truth, got some gentle advice, from a woman.