Petrol V Diesel Dilemma

LukeH

Hi guys,

Looking to purchase a different car. Currently have my eye on a 2.0 2005 Avensis. Although the Honda Accord keeps popping into my head. The accord comes in a 2.0 petrol standard I believe and then a 2.2 diesel. Now of course there is a significant difference in tax alone, and also I'm predicting a difference in insurance.

So what I'd like to know, would it be worth getting a petrol accord or a diesel.

I drive anywhere up to 1500 miles a month give or take. Mainly consists of small journeys of city ish driving. I'd also like to be able to drive the car hard without having to go to the fuel station.

Giving the price difference in purchasing and tax, should I get a petrol?

Cheers.

Bpmull

With your driving Go for a petrol. There is no savings to be made by driving a diesel around town/ short trips it's not what they are designed for. Petrol is better suited as they warm up faster and should be cheaper to buy too.

Truckermal

I would have the Accord as that model Avensis is fairly dreary don't forget about the Mazda 6 too which comes in a 1.8 aswell..

Did the Passat not work out?

mathepac

LukeH wrote: »

...
I drive anywhere up to 1500 miles a month give or take. Mainly consists of small journeys of city ish driving. ....

Petrol.

LukeH

Truckermal wrote: »

I would have the Accord as that model Avensis is fairly dreary don't forget about the Mazda 6 too which comes in a 1.8 aswell..

Did the Passat not work out?

Thanks guys. Just listening to people in work and they say diesel, I'm going to take a good look at the petrols now.

The passat was fine, after everything it set me back close to €2000. I want something different now as it's too much to repair good forbid anything went.

Boskowski

People used to buy diesel when they did high mileage due to lower price of diesel. Then people started buying diesel because of the lower emissions and its road tax implications. Now people are being diesel because everyone else does.

I'd try to look at it objectively. Purchase price, what would I save in taxes, what would I like to get out this car for myself.

You say you do low mileage in town and you want to drive her hard ( for fun I assume). Fuel savings are going to be minuscule if any then.
Tax savings are going to be eaten up by higher diesel purchase price. It sounds like petrol to me.

Sobanek

80km of town driving a day if you drove everyday for 30 days??? Wow, I do a 110 kms a day, 80% on motorway.

crossy

Diesel Without a doubt.

Cheaper Fuel.
More economical.
Way better re-sale value

Galwayguy35

crossy wrote: »

Diesel Without a doubt.

Cheaper Fuel.
More economical.
Way better re-sale value

For small journeys and city driving?

Leonard Hofstadter

Diesels aren't economical around town - get a petrol and enjoy all of the (many) advantages of owning a petrol engine.

Jesus.

Sobanek wrote: »

80km of town driving a day if you drove everyday for 30 days???

Probably a Taxi driver

Satanta

Personally I'd buy whatever I preferred. There is no qualifying criteria to meet for buying either.

Looking at it financially, if I were doing 18000 miles a year id favour diesel. Assuming the same mpg economy the difference in fuel price gives you a saving of approx 200 give or take. Your extra tax will eat that up. But the diesel will be more economical. So I'd say you'll save some at least

I'd drive the petrol version and the diesel to see what you prefer. You might like the diesel better than the petrol, or vice versa. You should let that be your deciding factor.

Satanta

captainspeed wrote: »

Diesels aren't economical around town - get a petrol and enjoy all of the (many) advantages of owning a petrol engine.

Name a few in this case. I'm not running down petrol cars. I'm interested to hear.

crossy

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

For small journeys and city driving?

Ye they are way cheaper for two reasons.

Look up parkers.co.uk

A petrol accord does 38 mpg with combined city and motorway
A diesel accord does 53 mpg with combined city and motorway

Diesel is also cheaper than the petrol so

100 miles in petrol will take 9.97 litres @ 151.9 = €15.14
100 miles in diesel will take 7.14 litres @ 146.9 = €10.49

A saving of nearly a fiver over only 100 miles.

In the one year @ 1500 miles a month thats a saving of €837 per year

Leonard Hofstadter

Satanta wrote: »

Name a few in this case. I'm not running down petrol cars. I'm interested to hear.

Diesels take considerably longer to warm up than petrol engines, and of course cars being driven around town take longer to warm up, which negates the advantages of diesel engines. Of course if they're driven around town for say 30 minutes or more continuously, then you will see fuel savings, but long term town driving will cause DMF and DPF failures - both of which are very expensive.

Bpmull

crossy wrote: »

Ye they are way cheaper for two reasons.

Look up parkers.co.uk

A petrol accord does 38 mpg with combined city and motorway
A diesel accord does 53 mpg with combined city and motorway

Diesel is also cheaper than the petrol so

100 miles in petrol will take 9.97 litres @ 151.9 = €15.14
100 miles in diesel will take 7.14 litres @ 146.9 = €10.49

A saving of nearly a fiver over only 100 miles.

In the one year @ 1500 miles a month thats a saving of €837 per year

I don't know of many diesels that will do 53mpg. I drive a diesel car and find them good when used for there purpose. But this thing of buying them to drive around town they will never get up to operating temperature and therefore will not be economical. Not basing this at you just a lot of irish people in general I can't understand why suddenly people are going around suggesting everyone to drive diesel regardless of the type of driving they do. Ironically the same people who suggest these diesels normally don't even know what a dmf or dpf is and they normally have no mechanical knowledge. And crossy that's not directed at you just irish people in general who think everyone should drive a diesel 10 years ago it was the opposite. But yet the purpose (ideal driving conditions) of diesel and petrol cars has never changed that doesn't make sense.

Based on the op's annual mileage a diesel is suitable but based on the type of driving the op does then a diesel is in no way beneficial if anything it's the opposite.

Satanta

captainspeed wrote: »

Diesels take considerably longer to warm up than petrol engines, and of course cars being driven around town take longer to warm up, which negates the advantages of diesel engines. Of course if they're driven around town for say 30 minutes or more continuously, then you will see fuel savings, but long term town driving will cause DMF and DPF failures - both of which are very expensive.

Good points. But the op is doing mixed driving and his max of 1500 miles a month is about 30 mikes a day which should get the car nice and warm unless he's faffing about all day doing a mile here and there.

Also, the dmf issues aren't guaranteed. And if it does go an indy should be able to do a good job relatively cheaply. Also... A solid one can be put in at that time if he's going to hold on to it for a while.

I'm guessing now, but I'd say the op does enough medium to longish runs to minimise dpf risks. Also.. They can be mapped out/removed.

I still think he should just drive both and get whatever one he prefers

mathepac

Satanta wrote: »

Personally I'd buy whatever I preferred. There is no qualifying criteria to meet for buying either. ...

Of course there are. The principle criterion here is the suitability of a modern diesel to low-mileage city trips. The consensus from the experts is they are not suited to that knd of use.

Bpmull

Satanta wrote: »

Good points. But the op is doing mixed driving and his max of 1500 miles a month is about 30 mikes a day which should get the car nice and warm unless he's faffing about all day doing a mile here and there.

Also, the dmf issues aren't guaranteed. And if it does go an indy should be able to do a good job relatively cheaply. Also... A solid one can be put in at that time if he's going to hold on to it for a while.

I'm guessing now, but I'd say the op does enough medium to longish runs to minimise dpf risks. Also.. They can be mapped out/removed.

I still think he should just drive both and get whatever one he prefers

There is side effects to replacing a dmf with an smf / solid flywheel if there wasn't then the manufacturers wouldn't of fitted dmfs in the first place. By fitting a solid flywheel the vibrations through the clutch dramatically increase and I've experienced it in my parents car it doesn't make the car that terribly nice to drive.

Also as for removing dpf the nct will be testing these in next 4-5 years people seem to forget this when they go removing the dpf I suppose it suits if your only keeping the car short time. If the op isn't doing solely town driving then a diesel may be more suitable but going by the post the op does primarily city driving.

Satanta

Bpmull wrote: »

There is side effects to replacing a dmf with an smf / solid flywheel if there wasn't then the manufacturers wouldn't of fitted dmfs in the first place. By fitting a solid flywheel the vibrations through the clutch dramatically increase and I've experienced it in my parents car it doesn't make the car that terribly nice to drive.

Also as for removing dpf the nct will be testing these in next 4-5 years people seem to forget this when they go removing the dpf I suppose it suits if your only keeping the car short time. If the op isn't doing solely town driving then a diesel may be more suitable but going by the post the op does primarily city driving.

True. Replace with a dmf in event of a failure then, and replace the dpf if it needs it.

The op might never have to do either though. They get touted as guaranteed failures in here sometimes.

Bpmull

Satanta wrote: »

True. Replace with a dmf in event of a failure then, and replace the dpf if it needs it.

The op might never have to do either though. They get touted as guaranteed failures in here sometimes.

I know what your saying alright. It's just if the op does a lot of town driving the risk of failure increases. I drive a diesel and I'm far from a diesel hater. In saying all that 1500 miles a month is a lot of town driving so maybe they do a lot of mixed driving too.

josealdo

whats a DMF and DPF ?

Idbatterim

dual mass flywheel and diesel particulate filter...

unkel

LukeH wrote: »

Just listening to people in work and they say diesel, I'm going to take a good look at the petrols now.

I like your style :cool:

Satanta

To summarise, and to be honest I am not coming down in favour of either

If you drive 18k pa a diesel would suit in general terms

If it's all small runs in town you may have issues with dmf and/or dpf. Not the end of the world though but a petrol may be less issue prone.

It depends if you do the odd longish run on the dpf issue. It should regen on a longer run

If you like low down torque then diesel

If you like a quieter more refined car then petrol

If you don't really care, then drive both and pick the one you like.

Now... Let me through a wildcard out there. If you are already thinking about a 2.2, what about an early e60 520i?

cerastes

mathepac wrote: »

Of course there are. The principle criterion here is the suitability of a modern diesel to low-mileage city trips. The consensus from the experts is they are not suited to that knd of use.

I tend to agree, but when you say experts, do you mean you've read something that has compared diesel/petrol low/city mileage usage? if you have Id be interested to see, or from personal knowledge and experience. I'm sure I'll find something if I do a google search but if you already have come across something good.

mathepac

By experts I mean sales people, garage owners and techs in the business who are part of my social circle

cerastes

mathepac wrote: »

By experts I mean sales people, garage owners and techs in the business who are part of my social circle

ok, well what i googled and my own knowledge tells me the same but makes refernece to fuel prices as they are UK sites (which and consumer.com), Im just looking for additional information myself, I thought you meant there was some technical comparison made somewhere, I was looking for something not taking into account fuel price/vehicle tax costs, and just technical comparisons so when you said experts I thought Id found what I was looking for, a technical pros and cons list.

Galwayguy35

crossy wrote: »

Ye they are way cheaper for two reasons.

Look up parkers.co.uk

A petrol accord does 38 mpg with combined city and motorway
A diesel accord does 53 mpg with combined city and motorway

Diesel is also cheaper than the petrol so

100 miles in petrol will take 9.97 litres @ 151.9 = €15.14
100 miles in diesel will take 7.14 litres @ 146.9 = €10.49

A saving of nearly a fiver over only 100 miles.

In the one year @ 1500 miles a month thats a saving of €837 per year

I drive a diesel TDI Golf myself, I need it because I have to travel 50 miles to work and back again in the evening and I do find it economical compared to the last Golf I had which was a 1.4 petrol.

However if I didn't have to do a long commute to work I would have never changed to diesel.

josealdo

what has dual mass flywheel and diesel particulate filter... got to do with short trips ????????

adam88

captainspeed wrote: »

Diesels take considerably longer to warm up than petrol engines, and of course cars being driven around town take longer to warm up, which negates the advantages of diesel engines. Of course if they're driven around town for say 30 minutes or more continuously, then you will see fuel savings, but long term town driving will cause DMF and DPF failures - both of which are very expensive.

These dmf and dpf. I thought these issue were taking care of with regard to newer diesels

No Pants

Diesels also sound horrible and smell horrible. And that low tax isn't going to be around for ever.

Leonard Hofstadter

figs666 wrote: »

what has dual mass flywheel and diesel particulate filter... got to do with short trips ????????

Town trips means increased gearchanges (especially in a diesel to keep the bloody things in their powerband), which means increased DMF wear.

The particulate filter traps all the soot from a diesel for a while but it needs to be 'burnt off', for that a diesel needs to be taken out of town on a spirited drive for a while, the regeneration process needs 30 minutes (usually) of open road driving. Thing is, if it's left for too long not even a spirited drive will force the DPF to regenerate, if it gets too clogged up with soot then it usually fails, and a new one is anything up to €1,000, or sometimes more depending on the car.

josealdo

captainspeed wrote: »

Town trips means increased gearchanges (especially in a diesel to keep the bloody things in their powerband), which means increased DMF wear.

The particulate filter traps all the soot from a diesel for a while but it needs to be 'burnt off', for that a diesel needs to be taken out of town on a spirited drive for a while, the regeneration process needs 30 minutes (usually) of open road driving. Thing is, if it's left for too long not even a spirited drive will force the DPF to regenerate, if it gets too clogged up with soot then it usually fails, and a new one is anything up to €1,000, or sometimes more depending on the car.

is the DPF on all diesels ? a fiend of mine bypassed his one with a circuit board and cut out the CAT ??? was it the CAT he cut out or the DPF ?

Idbatterim

following the 520 suggestion, below shows just how cheap these cars can be bought for...

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=82857

Bpmull

figs666 wrote: »

is the DPF on all diesels ? a fiend of mine bypassed his one with a circuit board and cut out the CAT ??? was it the CAT he cut out or the DPF ?

But realistically this is a short term solution. As it's inevitable that the nct will start checking dpf it might take 4 to 5 years but it will happen. I wouldn't like to have to pay for a new dpf after it being removed. People are too quick to remove all this stuff and never think of the consequences the same with replacing a dmf with a solid flywheel it has side effect.

I drive a diesel and find the concept good in the fact they can save you a lot of money if doing long trips. But this thing of going out buying a diesel to drive around town so it won't save you anything as it's not designed for this purpose and then messing around with the car dpf and dmf etc because they are causing trouble due to the fact it's been used in town. It makes no sense to me. And I'm not against diesel far from it but if your driving conditions don't suit a diesel then don't buy one. Its not about the distance you travel more so the type of driving you do.

mathepac

figs666 wrote: »

is the DPF on all diesels ? a fiend of mine bypassed his one with a circuit board and cut out the CAT ??? was it the CAT he cut out or the DPF ?

All modern diesels post 2008 (?) are fitted with DPFs, which in effect is a soot filter.

Diesels do not need CATs. My car doesn't have one and has sailed through NCTs

A CAT is a dumb box, like a silencer. A DPF has sensors and wiring and its own ECU is connected back to the car's emission control systems and the main ECU. Removing a CAT is simple - just stick a pipe in its place as I have done. Removing a DPF is a whole other ball game

MuppetCheck

If it's a 2005 car chances are it won't have a dpf. So the negatives I see for it are:

It will take longer to warm up.
It's a more complicated engine - more can theoretically go wrong.
The DMF won't like it.
It will cost more to buy.
The city driving will not yield huge savings on fuel.
The diesel will cost more to buy.

However, at 18k miles a year the slight fuel saving might be noticeable over a few years. Could I suggest as a possible alternative a Skoda Superb 1.9tdi auto? It's not as utterly reliable as an accord but the engine is robust, has no DPF and the auto will not have a DMF and will be handy doing that distance around town.

JohnBoy26

mathepac wrote: »

All modern diesels post 2008 (?) are fitted with DPFs, which in effect is a soot filter.

A dpf is more like a temporary storage for soot rather than a filter.

it will store the soot in stop start driving and keep dirt out of city and towns but as soon as you get to an open stretch of road it will regenerate and dump it's load leaving the environment no better off.

LukeH

Thanks everyone for the suggestion and advice, appreciate it.

When I say I do about 1500 a month, that's nearly strict Monday to Friday. I could do 150 in a day then 10 the next. Obviously there is trips on the M50 and Naas road ect.. but they would only have 15 minutes at a time. The thing that I see could be a negative is that driving it fast, I wont have a penny left to say. Is this exactly true, or are the people I know stinghy?

Cheers.

MuppetCheck

LukeH wrote: »

Thanks everyone for the suggestion and advice, appreciate it.

When I say I do about 1500 a month, that's nearly strict Monday to Friday. I could do 150 in a day then 10 the next. Obviously there is trips on the M50 and Naas road ect.. but they would only have 15 minutes at a time. The thing that I see could be a negative is that driving it fast, I wont have a penny left to say. Is this exactly true, or are the people I know stinghy?

Cheers.

The Naas Road runs will be 100kph. I know most of us treat it like a motorway and do 120ish and a 5 speed accord will be revving higher than the diesel, but keeping it to 100 will help a lot. A 6 speed is much better for motorway work but an auto diesel might be a nice compromise for you.