Unsocialised Dogs in Daycare

VonVix

I have been wanting to get some thoughts/opinions on the subject of unsocialised dogs in a daycare.

I've met many dogs that I would have considered to have minimal socialisation entering a dog daycare... not in an over enthusiastic/I don't understand boundaries way, but the total opposite, sitting in a corner quietly, sometimes trembling, sometimes snapping when a dog gets up near them.

Do you think this is harmful (exacerbates fears or teaches bad habits) to the dog?
Helpful (they begin to realise that other dogs aren't so bad)?
Thoughts?

borderlinemeath

The situation you describe, I would reckon to be extremely detrimental to the dogs mental well being. Every dog is different, but some owners don't seem to realise this and think that there's a 'one size fits all' solution for their dogs shortcomings, be that in a socialisation capacity or a training capacity.

VonVix

That's what I was thinking. It's just that I hear nothing said about it from anyone else so it left me confused about the matter. I wondered was I overreacting and didn't know something someone else did.

borderlinemeath

VonVix wrote: »

That's what I was thinking. It's just that I hear nothing said about it from anyone else so it left me confused about the matter. I wondered was I overreacting and didn't know something someone else did.

It's a similar situation to what was being discussed in the 'aggression to other dogs thread' http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057128433, where the dog gets 'flooded' in an effort to desensitise the dog, but it only succeeds in the dog either shutting down or becoming aggressive through absolute fear. The problem is that some people will misinterpret the submission that the dog exhibits for a sign that the 'flooding' works. Cue 'my dog gets on great with other dogs' type complacency until there's an incident with another dog and the dog may even be in danger of being pts given the circumstances:(.

DBB

Good subject to bring up VonVix, it's a big, big bugbear of mine and has been for a long time now!
I don't like the big, commercial daycares. I think there is only a small subset of dogs who really, genuinely enjoy them. Then there is a chunk of dogs who just get on with it. Then there's the dogs like you describe who hate it. I genuinely believe that although they may have the best of intentions, these huge daycares are doing more harm than good to many dogs.

My dogs would hate it. They are very well socialised dogs, but they don't enjoy socialising with other dogs, if you see the difference. They're polite, and well-mannered around dogs, but would never choose to spend time with them. I think a lot of dogs fall into this category.
Then there's the dogs who are frightened, scared stiff. These dogs will never get anything out of the experience, and for my money feature a lot amongst dogs who subsequently have to be treated for fear and aggression towards other dogs.

There are small, well-controlled daycares who I would be much happier with, where they have rooms and nooks and crannies for shy and fearful dogs to go so that they don't have to sit in a corner all day shaking and shivering. These sorts of places suit a lot more dogs, they're just not as intimidating and overwhelming.
Then there are the people who just take in a couple of dogs, the really small daycares, which are probably the fairest daycare option for dogs who are afraid of other dogs.

Knine

DBB wrote: »

My dogs would hate it. They are very well socialised dogs, but they don't enjoy socialising with other dogs, if you see the difference. They're polite, and well-mannered around dogs, but would never choose to spend time with them. I think a lot of dogs fall into this category.
.

This is exactly how my dogs would be. The bitches in particular have no interest in other dogs. A large Doggy Daycare would be their idea of hell.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

This is exactly how my dogs would be. The bitches in particular have no interest in other dogs. A large Doggy Daycare would be their idea of hell.

That is exactly how I have described to people how my dogs would feel about it too! If I had to leave my dogs all day to go to work, and I'm so lucky that I don't have to very often, my dogs would be far, far happier staying at home for 8 hours than going to a big daycare for 1 hour.
And I'm happy that my dogs are pretty representative of a lot of dogs!

VonVix

DBB wrote: »

Good subject to bring up VonVix, it's a big, big bugbear of mine and has been for a long time now!
I don't like the big, commercial daycares. I think there is only a small subset of dogs who really, genuinely enjoy them. Then there is a chunk of dogs who just get on with it. Then there's the dogs like you describe who hate it. I genuinely believe that although they may have the best of intentions, these huge daycares are doing more harm than good to many dogs.

Oh, I totally and completely agree. I don't know if you have any experience working in these places, but over time I have noticed how a lot of dogs end up learning certain behaviours from other dogs (99% of the time it's not a good behaviour), where once when they first started coming in they did not. Humping and collar pulling being the most commonly mimicked things I see.

My dogs would hate it. They are very well socialised dogs, but they don't enjoy socialising with other dogs, if you see the difference. They're polite, and well-mannered around dogs, but would never choose to spend time with them. I think a lot of dogs fall into this category.
Then there's the dogs who are frightened, scared stiff. These dogs will never get anything out of the experience, and for my money feature a lot amongst dogs who subsequently have to be treated for fear and aggression towards other dogs.

You know, I have been told a few times that I should bring one of my two dogs down because "it would be good", there have been moments where I felt tempted because I met dogs who were similar in nature in that environment to how I would predict my own to be, but then I have to just stop and say to myself "no, I need to protect him," because from what I have learnt from their breed is that they are very sensitive and the last thing I really should be doing is putting him in a room that will completely and utterly over stimulate him. He would not feel safe at all.

There are small, well-controlled daycares who I would be much happier with, where they have rooms and nooks and crannies for shy and fearful dogs to go so that they don't have to sit in a corner all day shaking and shivering. These sorts of places suit a lot more dogs, they're just not as intimidating and overwhelming.
Then there are the people who just take in a couple of dogs, the really small daycares, which are probably the fairest daycare option for dogs who are afraid of other dogs.

Yes, yes and yes. Did I say yes enough? I could say a lot of things in response to this part of your post in particular, but I should keep my gob shut, otherwise I will spiral into a rant lol.

tk123

+1 to all the comments

I stopped sending my two months ago. The older guy I'd already stopped but had an emergency where I had to leave him in - he was stressed out of his mind to the point that he freaked out and wore one of his pads down scraping to get out of the pen - never saw so much blood . The pup was fine but I worried about the effect it could have on her when she moved out of the puppy part. Often in the carpark/reception certain dogs were going ballistic at her and the other dogs waiting to go in - I'd cross the street if I saw those dogs outside so no way was I going to leave her in with them all day.
I could go on and on about them tbh. Have to say though in fairness the two big ones I have experience with are worlds apart - one treats their customers both human and canine a lot better than the other!

fatmammycat

My dog would absolutely hate this kind of set up and would turn from a well socialised easy going dog to a bullying monster if he was forced into this scene. I watched an older dog completely harrassed stupid by a younger more energetic dog at a 'daycare' when I went to collect a friend's dog, with nobody seeming to read the distress on the older dog, I guess because he was not growling or biting. There's no way my dog would tolerate that. He wouldn't be allowed in anyway as he is intact - which is fair enough- but even if he was I would avoid it (although I suppose some dogs enjoy then, no?).

tk123

fatmammycat wrote: »

My dog would absolutely hate this kind of set up and would turn from a well socialised easy going dog to a bullying monster if he was forced into this scene. I watched an older dog completely harrassed stupid by a younger more energetic dog at a 'daycare' when I went to collect a friend's dog, with nobody seeming to read the distress on the older dog, I guess because he was not growling or biting

That happened to my guy at a social hour we were at before xmas - I spent the hour watching where the other dog was trying to keep my guy away from him and then trying to keep tabs on the pup at the same time (only that she was having a ball I probably would have just left). The other dog had approached my guy who have off warning growls which were ignored, then gave a warning bark and the other dog still ignored him - his owner was a dog trainer too :rolleyes: and didn't see that her dog was being obnoxious.

kristian12

It's unfortunatley not just day care but some socialisation classes are the same. I took my 2 to one run by a behaviourist and what started out as a 6mnth old happy puppy ended up a neurotic mess. I won't go into the behaviorists methods as thats for another thread but will say there were far to many dogs in a small unlit lit unheated unit, full of owners taking there babies to meet other dogs.

For some of them its more about how many they can cram in than whats best for the dogs.

borderlinemeath

I have one of each. A bitch who would be very intolerant of certain dogs, particularly jumpy young pups and a younger male who absolutely thrives in the company of others. That said I haven't brought either to the large purpose built daycares (I have no need ) so I don't know how they would fare there. But I have had feedback from others who's dogs don't fare well in that type of set up. One was a very nervous lurcher who had huge issues with the noise and the confinement. She was great with dogs if she knew she had an 'escape route' ie to go into a different room, or even a quiet corner of a garden away from the fracas. Same dog didn't fare well left alone either so it's a fine balance to strike with some dogs.

VonVix

tk123 wrote: »

+1 to all the comments

I stopped sending my two months ago. The older guy I'd already stopped but had an emergency where I had to leave him in - he was stressed out of his mind to the point that he freaked out and wore one of his pads down scraping to get out of the pen - never saw so much blood . The pup was fine but I worried about the effect it could have on her when she moved out of the puppy part. Often in the carpark/reception certain dogs were going ballistic at her and the other dogs waiting to go in - I'd cross the street if I saw those dogs outside so no way was I going to leave her in with them all day.
I could go on and on about them tbh. Have to say though in fairness the two big ones I have experience with are worlds apart - one treats their customers both human and canine a lot better than the other!

There's one dog who used to enjoy being around and chilling out with other dogs, over time he has started to hate being in the day care. He gets irritated easily now if a large dog is up in his space. He'll just stand around watching everyone else, or he'll be over at the exit trying to go out/pulling on the gate with his paw.

As well as that, there are some dogs that I used to walk in, that I now have to coerce or even pick up in order for them to get into daycare.

And yeah, I'd well believe it.

fatmammycat wrote: »

My dog would absolutely hate this kind of set up and would turn from a well socialised easy going dog to a bullying monster if he was forced into this scene. I watched an older dog completely harrassed stupid by a younger more energetic dog at a 'daycare' when I went to collect a friend's dog, with nobody seeming to read the distress on the older dog, I guess because he was not growling or biting. There's no way my dog would tolerate that. He wouldn't be allowed in anyway as he is intact - which is fair enough- but even if he was I would avoid it (although I suppose some dogs enjoy then, no?).

Yup, it has happened. What I have found is that dogs who have come into the set up as puppies fair a lot better than adult dogs who are thrown into this environment.

There's often been intact (young) dogs brought in and they always get humped or harassed. Other dogs pick up the scent and react accordingly.

hpsheba

Hm really interesting topic. I co run a daycare and can totally get where some of these posts are coming from. In fact it was a customer whos dog we had to refuse for daycare told me about this thread.
Daycare is 100% not for all dogs and as daycare providers we really find this hard to get across to dog owners. There are huge mixed messages being given out to dog owners by trainers/behaviourists/online articles/vets re socialisation and I think the above posts highlights that.
All good reputable behaviourists will advise early socialisation for young pups, and can be great for all dogs which but that does NOT mean your dog MUST go to a daycare or MUST attend a social hour/class. We have found when telling an owner that daycare is not for their dog for whatever reason they take huge offence.
The only dogs that should attend daycare are ones that a) have passed a proper assessment b) are then monitored to make sure that they are happy and comfortable in the environment over a period of time/weeks. c) have no behavioural issues, fear , aggression or resource guarding for example.
Daycare, well at least our daycare, is not the place to be dealing with or trying any type of behaviour modification with a pet dog and sadly too often well meaning pet owners or “professional “ dog trainers refer the owners of of timid or fearful dogs to socialisation or daycare after saying it is essential or will magically cure their dog of their fears or phobias of other dogs and or humans
But for those dogs, the subset as DB called them that do enjoy it, it can be great fun, beneficial to the dog and beneficial to the dog owner.
On a side note to this, what would you consider to be a good alternative for people rather than daycare which I am aware is still a fairly new idea for most Irish people?. I used daycare and dog walkers before we opened this daycare so have experience as a customer of both. Also how did you go about vetting your daycare/dog walker/petsitter

tk123

hpsheba wrote: »

Hm really interesting topic. I co run a daycare and can totally get where some of these posts are coming from. In fact it was a customer whos dog we had to refuse for daycare told me about this thread.
Daycare is 100% not for all dogs and as daycare providers we really find this hard to get across to dog owners. There are huge mixed messages being given out to dog owners by trainers/behaviourists/online articles/vets re socialisation and I think the above posts highlights that.
All good reputable behaviourists will advise early socialisation for young pups, and can be great for all dogs which but that does NOT mean your dog MUST go to a daycare or MUST attend a social hour/class. We have found when telling an owner that daycare is not for their dog for whatever reason they take huge offence.
The only dogs that should attend daycare are ones that a) have passed a proper assessment b) are then monitored to make sure that they are happy and comfortable in the environment over a period of time/weeks. c) have no behavioural issues, fear , aggression or resource guarding for example.
Daycare, well at least our daycare, is not the place to be dealing with or trying any type of behaviour modification with a pet dog and sadly too often well meaning pet owners or “professional “ dog trainers refer the owners of of timid or fearful dogs to socialisation or daycare after saying it is essential or will magically cure their dog of their fears or phobias of other dogs and or humans
But for those dogs, the subset as DB called them that do enjoy it, it can be great fun, beneficial to the dog and beneficial to the dog owner.
On a side note to this, what would you consider to be a good alternative for people rather than daycare which I am aware is still a fairly new idea for most Irish people?. I used daycare and dog walkers before we opened this daycare so have experience as a customer of both. Also how did you go about vetting your daycare/dog walker/petsitter

For daycare one of the big things for me is staff to dog ratio - one person can't watch 20 dogs end of. The same goes for caging dogs and not being able to see them. Another is the staff themselves if owners are getting a standoffish/weird vibe from somebody surely dogs would get it tenfold? This would be somebody teaching classes so they need people skills too not just dog skills.

VonVix

tk123 wrote: »

For daycare one of the big things for me is staff to dog ratio - one person can't watch 20 dogs end of.

Lol, try 35-40 dogs and 3 staff members. It's ridiculous.

hpsheba

tk123 wrote: »

For daycare one of the big things for me is staff to dog ratio - one person can't watch 20 dogs end of. The same goes for caging dogs and not being able to see them. Another is the staff themselves if owners are getting a standoffish/weird vibe from somebody surely dogs would get it tenfold? This would be somebody teaching classes so they need people skills too not just dog skills.

I cant really comment on the caged aspect of daycare as we don't do that, but thats not to say that I think it is wrong, just not the way we do it.

On the getting a vibe from someone, I feel its like any consumer based business, if you are not happy with the service vote with your feet but do let the business know why sometimes something that seems obvious to a customer is not noticed by owners/staff of a business and maybe they can deal with it and if not make it better for you at least another customer may be spared the same experience.:)

DBB

hpsheba wrote: »

The only dogs that should attend daycare are ones that a) have passed a proper assessment b) are then monitored to make sure that they are happy and comfortable in the environment over a period of time/weeks. c) have no behavioural issues, fear , aggression or resource guarding for example.
Daycare, well at least our daycare, is not the place to be dealing with or trying any type of behaviour modification with a pet dog and sadly too often well meaning pet owners or “professional “ dog trainers refer the owners of of timid or fearful dogs to socialisation or daycare after saying it is essential or will magically cure their dog of their fears or phobias of other dogs and or humans

If only every daycare worked the same way, huh?:)
I think that some daycares started out with the best intentions, but profit has become all-encompassing now, which means that no dog is refused (well, I'm guessing that really troublesome dogs are), and the more dogs, the more unruly dogs, the more the quiet, retiring types suffer. Then there are the daycares which are run by people who really don't have a bog's notion what they're at, who don't know any different, and probably don't care (not too many of the latter about, thankfully, but I know one big one off the top of my head).
It's disappointing to hear that trainers are sending timid dogs to daycare... when you say "professional", I assume those inverted commas are heavy with meaning? There are some dogs that really benefit from being referred to daycare, dogs that like to play with other dogs but are a little unsure about how to break the ice, for example, but as a cure-all? No. Dogs who are timid and don't enjoy being around other dogs would fare better being left at home.
What are the alternatives? I can't remember if I mentioned it above, but I know a few people who take maybe 3 or 4 dogs in per day, maybe even fewer, and these suit a lot more dogs, particularly timid dogs, who find it easier to establish relationships with a small group of dogs who it sees regularly.
Or there's always the option of a dog walker: I really think that if a dog is not happy around other dogs, they're better off at home. It might not be ideal, but if a dog walker can break the day up a little for them, at least they're getting to relax at home, rather than spend the day bricking themselves for the sake of not being alone.

fiounnalbe

VonVix wrote: »

Lol, try 35-40 dogs and 3 staff members. It's ridiculous.

Wow. I've never been into any daycares as I'm lucky enough to be at home most of the time with my troop....would their really be this ratio of dogs to humans?? That seems dangerous to me, what if a fight broke out among them? I have 4 dogs and sometimes think I'm mad, can never keep track of what all of them are up to at once!!!

bluejelly

I brought my lab to a daycare 2yrs ago, I asked to see the area where the dogs are kept but they refused.......gave me a leaflet explaining the reasons why........eg. dogs would become excited/distracted........members of public would want to come in & watch etc etc.........none of them were good enough in my opinion....... I only wanted a quick look. Very reluctantly I left my dog there, the only reason being it was a well known daycare. When I collected her she looked so sad & had tear stains down her face. I was told she got on very well so brought her back for 2 more days but she became such a quiet sad dog & really didn't want to go in so I stopped bringing her. Tried her again a yr later for 1 day but same result......tear stains down her face again. Now I use a dog walker any day we can't bring her ourselves.

hpsheba

DBB wrote: »

I think that some daycares started out with the best intentions, but profit has become all-encompassing now, which means that no dog is refused (well, I'm guessing that really troublesome dogs are), and the more dogs, the more unruly dogs, the more the quiet, retiring types suffer.

Thats a tough one to answer, yes a daycare is a commercial business BUT from what I have seen and experienced its just not worth your own stress let alone the dogs to admit a dog that is not happy to be there. Like us humans I find that unhappiness can be contagious, you know how you can be brought down if you are in the company of someone who is sad or anxious , you can become anxious yourself and it can become a domino effect. I know that other daycare have accepted in dogs that we would not have deemed suitable for our daycare, or even ones that we have had to exclude after a time but their criteria maybe different to ours. With a business head on we have way to many staff for the €turnover and our price is too low for the service we provide but we don't take in more dogs than we can handle and we do have other aspects to our business that can help with the downfall. BUT ANYONE WHO THINKS DAYCARE IS A BIG MONEY MAKER IS CRAZY!!!!:eek: Its a money pit if you do it right I think LOL

Then there are the daycares which are run by people who really don't have a bog's notion what they're at, who don't know any different, and probably don't care (not too many of the latter about, thankfully, but I know one big one off the top of my head).

Yep, its the nature of the beast, training , behaviour work, grooming, in fact any dog related business as its unregulated has a**holes in it, in fact I think in relation to any other industry there is definetly a higher %

It's disappointing to hear that trainers are sending timid dogs to daycare... when you say "professional", I assume those inverted commas are heavy with meaning?

Now this is MY major bugbear, way too many people are advertising themselves as trainers and have NO practical experience of handling dogs at all. It make me so so angry. The worst ones are the ones who read a few books or do a short course and off they go sprouting advise left right and centre. I just wish that there was a mandatory portion of all courses that was hands on. REescue are crying our for help and I feel working with rescues/pounds/shelter dogs gives you a huge insight to what you are actually dealing with. Another thing is I am sick to the teeth of saying that they want to be trainer ( though thats not sexy enough for most anymore they all want to be behaviourists :rolleyes:) or groomers as they love dogs. Yes thats great but 9 times our of ten its the people you are training or giving advise to. If you are not a people person get another job!
There are some wonderful courses out there now, and some are Ireland based ( shock horror ) but its not enough, earn your stripes before you hang your shiny new website out there and start charging people and giving advise.

There are some dogs that really benefit from being referred to daycare, dogs that like to play with other dogs but are a little unsure about how to break the ice, for example, but as a cure-all? No. Dogs who are timid and don't enjoy being around other dogs would fare better being left at home.

Agree totally

What are the alternatives? I can't remember if I mentioned it above, but I know a few people who take maybe 3 or 4 dogs in per day, maybe even fewer, and these suit a lot more dogs, particularly timid dogs, who find it easier to establish relationships with a small group of dogs who it sees regularly.

Sounds wonderful but have never come across it myself, would love if you could pm me some names as it would be wonderful to be able to recomend places like this to our clients for whom our daycare is not suitable

Or there's always the option of a dog walker:

On a personal note here, please please check out your dog walker, I have used 3 over the years and only 1 was what she advertised herself to be. Im sure I posted on here at the time but my OH came home from work to collect something and caught one, who came recommended to me and with whom I had a three hours meeting withy, bringing my 2 dogs our on choke chains. I was like a lunatic driving around teh Phoneix Park looking for her.:mad:

I really think that if a dog is not happy around other dogs, they're better off at home. It might not be ideal, but if a dog walker can break the day up a little for them, at least they're getting to relax at home, rather than spend the day bricking themselves for the sake of not being alone.

Agree, and any dogs owners reading this please take note, if you are told your dog is not suitable for daycare for any reason but especially for the reasons DBB has mentioned take it as it is meant, the staff are looking our for your dog, not insulting you or your dog by saying they are not suitable.

Sorry just realised I did that whole quote thing wrong, sorry x

VonVix

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Wow. I've never been into any daycares as I'm lucky enough to be at home most of the time with my troop....would their really be this ratio of dogs to humans?? That seems dangerous to me, what if a fight broke out among them? I have 4 dogs and sometimes think I'm mad, can never keep track of what all of them are up to at once!!!

Indeed, this has been my current work environment. Before I arrived it was generally 1 staff member + 30 to 35 dogs. Yes. One staff member.

It is dangerous, which is probably why they always keep a pet corrector spray on hand. But I have been lucky since being down there, there hasn't been any major incidences.

hpsheba

Have you brought your concerns to your manager about it? If you feel unsafe in any job your boss is obliged by law to rectify that asap. Daycare like any other business are covered by Health and Safety in the workplace act.

VonVix

hpsheba wrote: »

Have you brought your concerns to your manager about it? If you feel unsafe in any job your boss is obliged by law to rectify that asap. Daycare like any other business are covered by Health and Safety in the workplace act.

We have had acknowledgements when it came to certain issues, and nothing else heard or done afterwards.

We even had one dog in that was technically breaking the noise limit law within the workplace because his bark is so high pitched and persistent.

hpsheba

VonVix wrote: »

We have had acknowledgements when it came to certain issues, and nothing else heard or done afterwards.

We even had one dog in that was technically breaking the noise limit law within the workplace because his bark is so high pitched and persistent.

Wow, well ear defenders should be provided for you, I know we have them for those who wish to wear them. I would suggest though if there are a group of you who feel the same way about the situation that you get together with management and insist the issues are dealt with. Regardless of your type of employment you do have the right to a safe work environment. I am sure that the business that you are employed by would hate any adverse publicity in regards to how they are dealing with dogs in their care.

Don't get me wrong, I think that working with dog does have some inherent risks to it. A dog that is normally happy as Larry in daycare can turn if he is feeling unwell but your employers does have a duty of care towards you as well as the dogs

cbd18

This is an interesting thread.... I have 0 experience with Irish doggie daycares but before moving to Ireland my dog went to daycare at least twice a week in the U.S. for the past 3 years. The US doggie daycares are everywhere so it's really easy to be quite choosy when deciding which one to use - I always used one that had limits on how many dogs per day could attend (so I was on a schedule were my dog was booked for Mondays and Wednesdays) and I think that MAX was 30 dogs. Then there were at least 5 dog handlers, if not more for the 30 dogs and at least 2 dog trainers at all times. They used positive reinforcement to encourage good behavior while in doggie daycare and had different groups (a more energetic play group, a moderately energetic play group and a totally relaxed group for older dogs or younger ones). Every time I picked my dog up I was given a report card, letting me know how she played, her best playmate that day and if there were any problems. My dog thrived on doggie daycare and loved it, but if I had an anti-social or dog that wasn't spayed or neutered I wouldn't take them. Daycares in the US require your dog be fixed to attend, do full day temperament testing, require full vaccination records (plus proof of worm and flea preventative) and if a dog is not having a good day at daycare they have a relaxation area the dog can rest in until the owner comes to collect it. I haven't found a place like that in Galway as the options seem limited and I'm afraid to just take her anywhere because I don't want it to become a bad experience for her.

Some of the better ones as well had webcams set up in the play areas, so if you were at work you could go to their website, enter the password and see your dog zooming past the camera and you could see yourself how the dogs were interacting.

My dog is very social so it really is a shame that it sounds like there aren't too many safe options in Galway.

tk123

Oh yes webcams - why don't they have them here!? I'd get no work done though lol I've grown disillusioned with the daycare we used but there were some positives for us. When my big guy started out in daycare he was shy of other dogs. He wanted to play but was a bit clueless in communicating with other dogs and to be fair I was clueless as an owner! 3 trips to daycare and you could see a huge improvement in him - he stood up to a bully dog that had been biting him for months. I thought my car was broke one morning - it was his tail wagging like mad as we were getting closer to the place lol! I'll never forget how happy and excited he was his first time back after his first operation.. But then things changed in the place and being clueless I didn't spot signs and took 'experts' advise over my own judgement. He was too stressed so I stopped sending him. With the puppy - she's bombproof so I knew she'd be ok and to give my mum a break I sent her for for a few months but after the last 'accident' it confirmed what I'd come to think of the place so we stopped using it.

Also as somebody posted earlier - being told you couldn't see the place as it'd disturb the dogs is a crock. The one I used to use had that policy...one day on FB I see a video posted on one of their personal pages from another member of staff - practising agility when the daycare dogs are supposed to be 'sleeping'! :mad: I went to buy something one time at a different daycare's shop - they asked if I'd like to look into the daycare and brought me around to see them - completely different vibe in the place both from staff and doggies!

hpsheba

We get asked about webcams quiet a lot but it something that we decided was not for us. Firstly I would not be 100% comfortable being on camera all day and after speaking to the staff a lot of them felt the same, not for the sake of having anything to hide but more of a case of feeling self conscious. And I did speak to the person who looks after our employment contracts and they also advised against it for legal reason. BUT anther consideration for us was the cost. Our building is quiet old and the walls are like Fort Knox, we have a hard enough time getting phone signal in there let alone broadband access for the cameras ! Its takes an age just to upload photos onto the facebook page. Have to say that gang that work with us have great patience for it and even do them when they go home after work.

VonVix

tk123 wrote: »

Also as somebody posted earlier - being told you couldn't see the place as it'd disturb the dogs is a crock. The one I used to use had that policy...one day on FB I see a video posted on one of their personal pages from another member of staff - practising agility when the daycare dogs are supposed to be 'sleeping'! :mad: I went to buy something one time at a different daycare's shop - they asked if I'd like to look into the daycare and brought me around to see them - completely different vibe in the place both from staff and doggies!

We actually have been quite reluctant at times to let non-staff members look at the daycare, simply for the reason dogs either start pooping or fighting when they see someone new come in (I suppose the main staff feel like this gives off a bad impression because it isn't like that constantly), they get very excited and get up in each others space which can cause fights.

@hpsheba - There was one pair of ear defenders brought in, but that was just for a lad who has a problem with his hearing, they said we should have more but they are expensive apparently.

One of the issues we have is the floor, it has already been changed/improved multiple times but it is a very slippy surface for medium-large dogs to run on, and if it gets the tiniest bit wet (some dogs love to play in their water dishes and we can only mop up so much of the water with towels) both people and dogs are slipping everywhere. Even yesterday a lab was leaping to catch a ball and he slipped, he was limping for a few minutes after.

DBB

VonVix wrote: »

We actually have been quite reluctant at times to let non-staff members look at the daycare, simply for the reason dogs either start pooping or fighting when they see someone new come in (I suppose the main staff feel like this gives off a bad impression because it isn't like that constantly), they get very excited and get up in each others space which can cause fights.

Jeez! If the appearance of a new person makes them fight and crap so readily, I would have serious concerns about the anxiety levels those dogs are enduring generally. If they're that quick to spark and poop, they're already on edge.

@hpsheba - There was one pair of ear defenders brought in, but that was just for a lad who has a problem with his hearing, they said we should have more but they are expensive apparently.

It might do no harm to point out to them that whilst a pair of ear defenders might be expensive, a claim against them for damaged hearing will be sooooo much more expensive

Even yesterday a lab was leaping to catch a ball and he slipped, he was limping for a few minutes after.

As above. There's a claim just waiting to happen there.

You must find it all terribly frustrating VonVix?:(

Knine

Ear defenders are not actually that expensive. I have a pair for my daughter.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

Ear defenders are not actually that expensive. I have a pair for my daughter.

I've just picked out the first Irish site I could find when I googled "Ear defenders", and they range in price, depending on their ability to block out increasing noise levels, from €5.54 to €29.41, incl VAT!
Expensive my butt!:o

VonVix

DBB wrote: »

Jeez! If the appearance of a new person makes them fight and crap so readily, I would have serious concerns about the anxiety levels those dogs are enduring generally. If they're that quick to spark and poop, they're already on edge.

It might do no harm to point out to them that whilst a pair of ear defenders might be expensive, a claim against them for damaged hearing will be sooooo much more expensive

Yeah, the dogs are very varied in terms of how comfortable they are in daycare. It seems to basically be a "one size fits all" approach, all excited, playful, nervous, tired, unhappy or young dogs all must share the same environment.

There is actually another reason I think they can be so edgy at times, but I won't be getting into that here as it may be identifying the establishment.

As above. There's a claim just waiting to happen there.

You must find it all terribly frustrating VonVix?:(

Oh god yes, a lot of people get bothered by these things, but few feel much about it with the except of myself and one other (as far as I'm aware, anyway), most just get on with everything. I think it's because they haven't been directly affected by these issues.

Knine wrote: »

Ear defenders are not actually that expensive. I have a pair for my daughter.

Just had a look now, and right you are.

tk123

DBB wrote: »

As above. There's a claim just waiting to happen there.

On the owner's insurance maybe but all the disclaimers warn that any accidents your dog has are YOUR problem and they won't be held accountable

DBB

tk123 wrote: »

On the owner's insurance maybe but all the disclaimers warn that any accidents your dog has are YOUR problem and they won't be held accountable

It would be an interesting one to test... there is a duty of care on the daycare, and if there is something unsafe in the environment which causes injury, and particularly a risk that could have been reasonably reduced/minimised, they just might have it all to do to defend themselves in a civil case.

cbd18

hpsheba wrote: »

We get asked about webcams quiet a lot but it something that we decided was not for us. Firstly I would not be 100% comfortable being on camera all day and after speaking to the staff a lot of them felt the same, not for the sake of having anything to hide but more of a case of feeling self conscious. And I did speak to the person who looks after our employment contracts and they also advised against it for legal reason. BUT anther consideration for us was the cost. Our building is quiet old and the walls are like Fort Knox, we have a hard enough time getting phone signal in there let alone broadband access for the cameras ! Its takes an age just to upload photos onto the facebook page. Have to say that gang that work with us have great patience for it and even do them when they go home after work.

The webcams at most daycares in the states don't show the staff, occasionally you can see a pair of legs walking by. Which is funny. It's a great distraction at work and it's nice knowing your dog is having a good experience.

And after reading this thread I'm even more reluctant now to use a dog daycare which is highly disappointing, because I'm sure my dog misses it and there aren't any fenced in dog parks near Galway (we go up to Dublin once a month to stay with my partners parents and use the dog parks there to get our dog some social time, she loves it and the Cabinteely park seems to have very responsible dog owners (i.e. paying attention to their dogs and correcting any bad behavior)).

Someone mentioned the floors are slippery and dogs get injured? I'm surprised they don't have the rubber floor padding that is easier on dogs joints for indoor play.

And I agree, that's a bad sign if the presence of people create that much anxiety dogs poo then and there. I've never seen that happen ! I've toured at least 10 daycares in different states I've lived in in the US (sorry I keep bringing that up but it's the only thing I have to compare Irish daycares to) and I've never seen anything like that - I agree with the other person they must be pretty stressed.

*sigh*

VonVix

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean they poo in fright, I mean that they seem to have a moments peace as well as space and grab that moment to do their business, so basically when someone is viewing the daycare they just see crap around the place lol.

And don't feel too deterred cbd18, I am sure there are great daycares in Ireland and there are loads of dogs who love it, but I honestly think many owners put their dogs in daycare for their own benefit, and not the dogs. You need to be aware of how your dog is when around loads of different types of dogs (particularly those with different muzzle and ear shapes) and humans. If you think they are going to be quiet/nervy, or potentially over enthusiastic (to the point of intentionally or unintentionally hurting another dog or getting hurt by a dog because they cannot read their body language because of a lack of exposure) then it may not be a good environment for your dog to be in.

But of course, it also depends on the schedule and actual facilities in these daycares, some may be great compared to others, they may have facilities to accommodate dogs who want to take a nap after a while, or older dogs, etc. and this may make the experience sooo much more enjoyable for dogs than certain daycares than just lump all of them together in one room for the rest of their visit.

My point in making this thread was that I have met many dogs I wouldn't consider suitable for the environment, many dogs that are probably (and most likely) absolutely lovely dogs in their own home, but in daycare? It's not fair on them. Plus I wanted to see if anyone here thought it was a good idea to bring less socialised dogs into daycare, if they thought it was of benefit to their pets.

Okay, I am waffling on now.

borderlinemeath

tk123 wrote: »

On the owner's insurance maybe but all the disclaimers warn that any accidents your dog has are YOUR problem and they won't be held accountable

One of the reasons I have insurance is in case of any altercations and/or vet bills

hpsheba

VonVix, I really feel for you. The issues that you are seeing in the place you work, we have come up against them in our place too. The floor for our daycare cost in excess of €15,000 just for the main area and has a huge safety rating BUT like all floors if it gets wet there could still be a risk but luckily 2+ years down the line we have not had an accident with a dog or a staff member due to the floor.

If you want to pm me and have a chat feel welcome, I think I some of your ex colleagues have been in to see us. So please do not think you are alone in your worries.

We like most other daycare do have a disclaimer that we ask customers to sign. The no 1 reason we have it and this may sound odd, is that people lie when talking about their dogs to us, or maybe they just see their dog through rose tinted glasses. We have had many a dog come in for assessment who are not only unsuitable for daycare but also would require serious behavioral work just to be handled by strangers. We use the disclaimer generally to point out to the owner that we are aware that there are risks working with dog but the should be honest with us from the start or they may be consequences. Again we have been lucky or maybe its because we do take it all so seriously that there have been no injuries that would require more than a plaster and usually that's from an excitable dog with those long sharp nails.

Again, daycare is not for every dog, and the point that was raised that it is more for the owner than the dog I can concur with. While we have screened out dogs well and I feel we have a wonderful group of dogs that come to us, a lot of time that are with us to make their owners life easier or better.

With Dublin so built up now, we see a lot of dogs who have attracted complaints for being nuisance barkers, we see dogs who are destructive at home when left alone ( not separation anxiety,) due to boredom, or maybe the owners don't fancy having to head out after work that particular night after work to walk the dog for an hour. Its a new industry here, and I think most people who are working in daycare and even those of us who own them, would agree, that we are learning everyday what works best for the dogs in our care and the business itself. But the one thing I feel strongly enough to state here is that NO DAYCARE is the place to try and do behaviour modification on a dog, so NO dog with big social problems should attend. Maybe after a proper modification programme but definitely not as part of one.

TG1

Just read through this thread, and it has left me feeling very relieved! I was a bit upset because my friend accused me of being cruel to my dog about 3 days ago, and hasn't stopped mentioning it since!
The dog has been a part of the family for nearly 12 years at this stage, so we know him pretty well! He's not fond of other dogs, not afraid but he just doesn't acknowledge when a dog is trying to sniff/play etc. He is also wary of strangers, and doesn't even like when friends of mine pop into our house to feed him when we are not there. He is a border collie cross, so is quite active, but at nearly 12 he doesn't have the patience for puppies or overenthusiastic playmates, and even when my brothers 9 month old pup is over he hides in the utility room every half hour or so for a break!
All along there were 6 people in the house so the dog was never left alone, but for the last couple of years there's only 3 of us living there. On the odd occasion (maybe 4 times last year, its not frequent!), We have to leave him for 8/10 hours. We leave him with a big bowl of water and toys and a frozen kong, and come back to him stretching madly, his army of squeakys in the bed, an untouched water bowl and untouched kong which he then devours once we are home. We think he just pops into bed and snoozes till we come home.
My friend heard this and was horrified, calling me cruel, and saying she couldn't believe I owned a dog if I was willing to leave him like that... She was at pains to point out that there is a very well known doggy day care 20 mins from our house (that her dog attends and apparently loves...), and wouldn't accept that it was not a situation I thought my fella would be happy in. as well as him not being happy I imagine he would be quite problematic in a daycare, as he can have a growl and show teeth to my brothers pup, and is very standoffish with people he doesn't know.
I was actually starting to doubt my own judgement because she has been so vehement about telling me off...
I'm so glad I found this thread now, as after reading it I'm a bit reassured I'm right!

DBB

Well called TG1!
I must say, there have been many times that I have talked to owners who were about to leave their dogs with a certain trainer, or a certain kennels, or a certain daycare, or whatever, and suddenly got a feeling that it wasn't right. Some owners get that feeling much earlier, like yourself TG1. Either way, they didn't leave their dogs.
Now, these owners weren't necessarily the most experienced, they may not have owned dogs before, but their instincts were spot on. I think it's REALLY important that owners listen to that little voice that's telling them things aren't right, and bring your dog home with you... it's all too common for owners to hear that little voice and still leave their dog behind regardless, because the service they're entrusting their dog to know best, don't they? They're the experts, aren't they?
Feck that! If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't!

tk123

DBB wrote: »

I think it's REALLY important that owners listen to that little voice that's telling them things aren't right, and bring your dog home with you... it's all too common for owners to hear that little voice and still leave their dog behind regardless, because the service they're entrusting their dog to know best, don't they? They're the experts, aren't they?
Feck that! If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't!

To my shame I didn't listen to myself for a long time. Sure what would I know I'm only an owner right? :mad: My dog used to panic going into daycare because he didn't want me to leave him etc. The other daycare that we've been to for some classes and the odd social hour (more so for the puppy - I can't leave big boy alone that long so have to bring him along but he likes getting cuddles from all the owners) - my god the difference. It's like he'd been going there for the last 4 years and not the other place they know him so well and will work within his limits without making me feel ashamed/a failure).

This also brings up a major gripe of mine - if you're an expert your reputation will tell everyone you're an expert - you shouldn't be calling yourself one lol!!

VonVix

TG1 wrote: »

Just read through this thread, and it has left me feeling very relieved! I was a bit upset because my friend accused me of being cruel to my dog about 3 days ago, and hasn't stopped mentioning it since!
The dog has been a part of the family for nearly 12 years at this stage, so we know him pretty well! He's not fond of other dogs, not afraid but he just doesn't acknowledge when a dog is trying to sniff/play etc. He is also wary of strangers, and doesn't even like when friends of mine pop into our house to feed him when we are not there. He is a border collie cross, so is quite active, but at nearly 12 he doesn't have the patience for puppies or overenthusiastic playmates, and even when my brothers 9 month old pup is over he hides in the utility room every half hour or so for a break!
All along there were 6 people in the house so the dog was never left alone, but for the last couple of years there's only 3 of us living there. On the odd occasion (maybe 4 times last year, its not frequent!), We have to leave him for 8/10 hours. We leave him with a big bowl of water and toys and a frozen kong, and come back to him stretching madly, his army of squeakys in the bed, an untouched water bowl and untouched kong which he then devours once we are home. We think he just pops into bed and snoozes till we come home.
My friend heard this and was horrified, calling me cruel, and saying she couldn't believe I owned a dog if I was willing to leave him like that... She was at pains to point out that there is a very well known doggy day care 20 mins from our house (that her dog attends and apparently loves...), and wouldn't accept that it was not a situation I thought my fella would be happy in. as well as him not being happy I imagine he would be quite problematic in a daycare, as he can have a growl and show teeth to my brothers pup, and is very standoffish with people he doesn't know.
I was actually starting to doubt my own judgement because she has been so vehement about telling me off...
I'm so glad I found this thread now, as after reading it I'm a bit reassured I'm right!

I say well done to you. All dogs are different, to leave a different dog in that situation may be "cruel" to some people, but it depends on the dog you're leaving and what you leave them with (if anything besides water)! I get the impression you can read your boy well and he is definitely looked after when he is left alone.

Maybe your friend has a dog that she couldn't imagine leaving at home, maybe her dog has separation anxiety or tears the place to bits if left alone an hour. Who knows. But often people will take their own experience as one that may apply to most dogs. I'd ignore her if I were you.

gazzer

We have been leaving our 2 dogs in a Doggy Day care near to where we work for the last 5 months. They seem to have a great time and the people who run the day care are fantastic. You can tell they really love animals (they have 8 dogs of their own). They put photos up on Facebook every day (around 300 at a time) and will always tell you if they feel that your dog is unhappy or if they have noticed something that was different in your dog on a particular day.

I would love to leave them there each work day but finances done allow it unfortunately so at the moment we leave them there 2 days a week

tk123

gazzer wrote: »

We have been leaving our 2 dogs in a Doggy Day care near to where we work for the last 5 months. They seem to have a great time and the people who run the day care are fantastic. You can tell they really love animals (they have 8 dogs of their own). They put photos up on Facebook every day (around 300 at a time) and will always tell you if they feel that your dog is unhappy or if they have noticed something that was different in your dog on a particular day.

I would love to leave them there each work day but finances done allow it unfortunately so at the moment we leave them there 2 days a week

300 photos a day?! :eek::pac:

gazzer

tk123 wrote: »

300 photos a day?! :eek::pac:

Yeah. One of the owners loves taking photos of the dogs when they are playing so throughout the day she would take all those photos and put them up on their Facebook site at around 4pm. I have gotten some gorgeous photos of my 2 from there.

hpsheba

tk123 wrote: »

To my shame I didn't listen to myself for a long time. Sure what would I know I'm only an owner right? :mad:

This also brings up a major gripe of mine - if you're an expert your reputation will tell everyone you're an expert - you shouldn't be calling yourself one lol!!

Ok, first as the owner you know your dog better than anyone else so never under estimate that when it comes to bringing them places or doing things.
We see a lot of dog owners day in day out and I would never ever assume to know the dogs better than they do. I may be able to advise some products or services that may help make their live easier, I may be able to say that X training class would be fun for their dog or x training class will help with an issues they have.

When its comes to dogs there are very few experts, its such a new science, research being done constantly changing and challenging traditional believe and old theories. I am a fan of the forever student LOL , someone who is willing to keep studying. reading new material and trying new techniques.

unclebill98

This tread is good though slightly confusing. Day care good, no day care bad....

I am a regular user of a day care centre. For many reasons like work etc. My dogs where assessed for suitability before entering the centre and I've had issue with one of my dogs and it was declined day care until its behaviours improved etc.

I find my dogs get great interaction with other dogs. Has helped me with them when I walk them myself etc as there socialised. I love when they come home there are all wrecked and just wanna sleep, apart from the pup who has endless energy.

Id agree with reasons for not seeing the area. I suppose it depends on when you turn up. The dogs could be mid play, hyped up etc and I gone in myself at this stage, never a fight but a massive rush over to see who it is. I would be wary of any day care that refused point blank to ever let you see the centre in full.

I would assume most centres have a FB page and stick up pictures etc and the webcam thing is a great idea but of course not ideal for all places.

I personally don't think its right to leave a dog for endless hours on its own on a very regular basis. The odd time fine.

Interesting tread all the same.

tk123

I think the debate is that some daycares are run better than others. Some have a skeleton crew of staff with one person watching 20 dogs or more and some have loads, some use cages and some don't, some have toys for the dogs to play with some it's just the dogs walking around in circles etc etc

unclebill98 wrote: »

I love when they come home there are all wrecked and just wanna sleep, apart from the pup who has endless energy.

I used to think the same thing about daycare and them being tired - especially when my older dog was hyper from being on a cereal based food (RC) that I'd now never dream of feeding them. My dogs get a 30min walk in the morning - just them pottering around the park so not proper walking or anything and would sleep all day, another proper walk in the evening for 40 mins or so (the pup is 8 months so can't walk her too far on concrete footpaths) and they're chilled asleep all evening. My pup would get tired 30 mins into a social hour too - she doesn't need a full day of playing.
I was working from home all week and was exhausted from only taking breaks around when the dogs would wake up to go to the loo lol - they hardly get up at all lol! .