South African "gay conversion"

Shakti

Heartbreaking, how homophobic do you have to be to do this to your own child,

A 15-year-old South African boy died after he was kept chained to his bed, beaten with planks and hoses at a training camp that boasted of "making men" out of its young recruits, a court has heard.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/10015978/Teen-dies-after-being-beaten-at-camp-that-makes-men-out-of-boys.html

biko

Not the first one either.

Phew, military camp is tough!

A. Rasher

ha, 'camp'

J_E

Terrible way to have to die. The mother seems shockingly naive...surely she would have suspected something, or did she have that much disdain for her son or what?

Edit: There's a pic floating around of him in hospital, it's really horrible...can't imagine how you could deliberately treat someone like that. He's the 3rd to die in the last 6 years so there's definitely something majorly wrong here. Having read this article, there is definitely more perspective. It's marketed as a summer camp, sounds more like a prison.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-04-29-raymond-buys-15-years-old-dead-for-not-being-manly/#.Ut226bTFLDc

Nodin

Shakti wrote: »

Heartbreaking, how homophobic do you have to be to do this to your own child,




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/10015978/Teen-dies-after-being-beaten-at-camp-that-makes-men-out-of-boys.html

He wasn't sent there for being gay, nor was/is the camp for "converting" gays.

I wish there was no picture on the page linked, the replies on this thread would have been pretty different.

Shakti

Nodin wrote: »

He wasn't sent there for being gay, nor was/is the camp for "converting" gays.

The only people pushing that line are the Anglicans and the conservative Christian "gay conversion" lobby,

J_E

Shakti wrote: »

The only people pushing that line are the Anglicans and the conservative Christian "gay conversion" lobby,

No, other articles like the one I linked above show that it wasn't a conversion camp like was stated, more of a faux-military 'toughen up' sort of thing. It might have been one in disguise but doesn't seem to be the immediate case from what I'm reading. Either way, reading some reports, I just count myself lucky I'm in a bed right now never having been sent out to anything like this when I was younger.

Nodin

Shakti wrote: »

The only people pushing that line are the Anglicans and the conservative Christian "gay conversion" lobby,

There is no mention of it in the article you linked.

I've no idea what "Anglicans" have to do with it.

Shakti

https://www.google.ie/search?q=south+african+gay+conversion&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

My name is URL

Shakti wrote: »

The only people pushing that line are the Anglicans and the conservative Christian "gay conversion" lobby,

The article is editorialised, but your OP is even more so.

It's like a digital version of Chinese Whispers*

*not a racist

Nodin

Shakti wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/search?q=south+african+gay+conversion&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

....yet theres no statement from the mother that she sent her son there because he was gay. The statement "make a man out of him" seems to have been pounced on.

You still haven't explained what the hell Anglicans have to do with it.

Shakti

My name is URL wrote: »

The article is editorialised, but your OP is even more so.

It's like a digital version of Chinese Whispers*

*not a racist

Well despite what you think these children have still been murdered,

Nodin

Shakti wrote: »

Well despite what you think these children have still been murdered,

Nobody has suggested otherwise.

My name is URL

Shakti wrote: »

Well despite what you think these children have still been murdered,

Which despite its brevity is still as terrible as it sounds with all the loaded bags

Shakti

Nodin wrote: »

....yet theres no statement from the mother that she sent her son there because he was gay. The statement "make a man out of him" seems to have been pounced on.

You still haven't explained what the hell Anglicans have to do with it.

I am not surprised by the mothers statement,

The Anglicans have led Christian fundamentalism in Africa for many years,

drunkmonkey

The Anglicans, Gays and the Catholics, what have any of them got to do with this, you might as well chuck in the man on the grassy knoll while your at it.

Shakti

These camps are very well known notorious, for what they do who they do it to and why they do it.

J_E

Shakti wrote: »

These camps are very well known notorious, for what they do who they do it to and why they do it.

Very well known according to the media spin...it's speculation. Doesn't take away from the terrible abuse.

Shakti

Cydoniac wrote: »

Very well known according to the media spin...it's speculation. Doesn't take away from the terrible abuse.

What exactly are you saying is speculation?

J_E

Shakti wrote: »

What exactly are you saying is speculation?

You're saying they're gay conversion camps. Apart from a few articles labelling it that way, I don't see it myself.

Shakti

Cydoniac wrote: »

You're saying they're gay conversion camps. Apart from a few articles labelling it that way, I don't see it myself.

You read the whole article right,

Femme_Fatale

Is there "gay conversion therapy" going on there? Are hetero kids not sent there?

I hate homophobia, but I don't like misrepresentation either. I've no doubt gay kids are sent there to "straighten them out" but that doesn't seem to be the camp's sole purpose. Seems to be a place where frustration is taken out on any lad who's seen as a "pussy" whether gay or straight.

J_E

Shakti wrote: »

You read the whole article right,

Read a few more articles and know news outlets aren't always interested in the truth, and like their buzzwords. I don't feel for this any less but it shouldn't be labelled wrongly.

Shakti

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Is there "gay conversion therapy" going on there? Are hetero kids not sent there?

I hate homophobia, but I don't like misrepresentation either.

Then I suggest you avoid it, you read the whole article to right,

Shakti

Cydoniac wrote: »

Read a few more articles and know news outlets aren't always interested in the truth, and like their buzzwords. I don't feel for this any less but it shouldn't be labelled wrongly.

Why did you come to that conclusion re. The other articles?

Femme_Fatale

Shakti wrote: »

Then I suggest you avoid it, you read the whole article to right,

No I won't avoid it. Maybe you should avoid misrepresenting.

SpaceTime

Yeiks! That's just really harrowing reading. It leaves me feeling ill, upset and makes my blood boil that it can be allowed to happen!

How could anyone do that to anyone else? I don't care what the motivation of the 'camp' is, that's torture, abuse and basically murder.
The poor guys.

There's something clearly seriously wrong with the justice and policing system in South Africa if that's going on and someone's getting off on suspended sentences!

J_E

Shakti wrote: »

Why did you come to that conclusion re. The other articles?

Okay, you're not seeing the point; I'm not going to spend pages arguing it when the article is about something more than that.

the_syco

The homophobia comments were probably related to

Mr Calitz's sister Mathilda Groenwald told Johannesburg's Star newspaper that her brother was slightly brain-damaged and struggled to hold down jobs. She told the paper he was beaten when he asked to quit the camp, adding: "Alex (de Koker) told him that he wasn't gay and he would make a man out of him".

Shakti

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No I won't avoid it. Maybe you should avoid misrepresenting.

You and your compatriot failed to read the whole article congratulations, you only realised it was about more than one person several posts into having a go at me congratulations again and I refuse to quote an article that either of you couldn't be arsed reading in the first place.

SpaceTime

It's worth letting the South African Government know the world's watching.
Register your disgust with:

South African Embassy
Alexandra House
2nd Floor
Earlsfort Centre
Earlsfort Terrace
Dublin 2

Tel: + 353 1 661 5553
Fax: + 353 1 661 5590

Or : http://southafricahouseuk.com if you're in the UK.

J_E

Shakti wrote: »

You and your compatriot failed to read the whole article congratulations, you only realised it was about more than one person several posts into having a go at me congratulations again and I refuse to quote an article that either of you couldn't be arsed reading in the first place.

Actually, I read several articles on it - don't blindly trust everything you read, the man running it was probably homophobic but on the consensus of several articles it doesn't seem to be purely a gay conversion camp. Just...stop.

Femme_Fatale

Shakti wrote: »

You and your compatriot failed to read the whole article congratulations, you only realised it was about more than one person several posts into having a go at me congratulations again and I refuse to quote an article that either of you couldn't be arsed reading in the first place.

We read it all - it mentions the word gay; it still doesn't mean it's exclusively a gay conversion camp. Nobody's having a go at you - there's a difference between that and merely disagreeing; you are having a go at others by being snarky for no good reason.
And the word "compatriot"... https://englishedithelp.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/words1.jpg%3Fw%3D300%26h%3D200

Homophobic abuse is a dreadful thing - don't cheapen it by misrepresenting like you're doing.

Shakti

Cydoniac wrote: »

Actually, I read several articles on it - don't blindly trust everything you read, the man running it was probably homophobic but on the consensus of several articles it doesn't seem to be purely a gay conversion camp. Just...stop.

Stop what exactly?

Femme_Fatale

Shakti wrote: »

Stop what exactly?

Making sh1t up?

Shakti

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

We read it all - it mentions the word gay; it still doesn't mean it's exclusively a gay conversion camp. Nobody's having a go at you - there's a difference between that and merely disagreeing; you are having a go at others by being snarky for no good reason.
And the word "compatriot"... https://englishedithelp.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/words1.jpg%3Fw%3D300%26h%3D200

Homophobic abuse is a dreadful thing - don't cheapen it by misrepresenting like you're doing.

You should be embarrassed

Shakti

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Making sh1t up?

What did I make up?

Femme_Fatale

Shakti wrote: »

You should be embarrassed

No I shouldn't; try to engage like a grown-up rather than throwing your toys out of the pram like a baby just because people aren't in agreement with you and were explaining why, and in a civil manner.

SpaceTime

All I see is unbelievable abuse of vulnerable kids and young adults.
The perpetrators shouldn't see the outside of a prison cell for as long as they live!

Also, WTF is this notion that 'manliness' is about violence and macho behaviour.
Guys are gay, straight, bi, macho, effeminate, and everything in-between. That's what being a man is!

Nobody calling themselves a "man" could treat people like that.

This whole thing needs to be brought to the attention of the UN-HCR.
South Africa currently sits on the UN Human Rights Committee too.

osarusan

Shakti wrote: »

You and your compatriot failed to read the whole article congratulations, you only realised it was about more than one person several posts into having a go at me congratulations again and I refuse to quote an article that either of you couldn't be arsed reading in the first place.

You're the one that didn't read the article FFS, nothing to do with 'converting' him because he was gay, everything to do with 'toughening up' the boy.

Horrible story, deserving of long sentences in prison for those involved.

Canis Lupus

Shakti wrote: »

What did I make up?

You're inferring based on a single comment. Now if you could read the article again and quote directly where it says it was a gay conversion camp please post it into here otherwise it's just conjecture.

Shakti

A statement from the sister of a victim is neither an inference or conjecture, the only people who are maintaining that this was not a "gay conversion" are people like this http://www.voiceofthevoiceless.info/south-african-youth-tortured-and-killed-in-gay-conversion-camp-more-activist-propaganda/ and the accused of course.

J_E

Look, this is getting a bit out of hand. One article (the kpop one) originally said it was a gay conversion camp and other articles quickly latched onto that. You can't ride on speculation and expect people to lap it up. I'm gay and I know they're not saying it was that, for goodness' sake. You're just detracting from real discussion by being stubborn and refusing to see the point that it is never officially stated or explicitly suggested, bar a quote from the abuser about someone 'not being gay'

juice1304

Shakti wrote: »

A statement from the sister of a victim is neither an inference or conjecture, the only people who are maintaining that this was not a "gay conversion" are people like this http://www.voiceofthevoiceless.info/south-african-youth-tortured-and-killed-in-gay-conversion-camp-more-activist-propaganda/ and the accused of course.

He asked you to post if from the link in the op and you post another one.
Why are you latching onto it being about someone or not being gay, It is about the abuse and murder of a child nothing more. Whether or not he was gay is besides the point and from the original article it doesn't seem like he was. It seemed like a place to scare the sh1te out of them and act more macho etc..
It was barbaric and wrong that is the point nothing more.

hardCopy

This sounds a lot like Kamp Staaldraad, where the Springboks rugby team prepared for the world cup a few years ago, quite controversial at the time.

Nodin

Shakti wrote: »

I am not surprised by the mothers statement,

The Anglicans have led Christian fundamentalism in Africa for many years,

.....nope. And odds are yer man is Dutch reformed.

Shakti wrote:

These camps are very well known notorious, for what they do who they do it to
and why they do it

Spreading racism.

Shakti wrote:

You read the whole article right,

Yep. No evidence whatsoever.

playedalive

SpaceTime wrote: »

All I see is unbelievable abuse of vulnerable kids and young adults.
The perpetrators shouldn't see the outside of a prison cell for as long as they live!

Also, WTF is this notion that 'manliness' is about violence and macho behaviour.
Guys are gay, straight, bi, macho, effeminate, and everything in-between. That's what being a man is!

Nobody calling themselves a "man" could treat people like that.

This whole thing needs to be brought to the attention of the UN-HCR.
South Africa currently sits on the UN Human Rights Committee too.

Really good point. It's unfortunate that bigots like these folk have to promote their narrow mindedness by torturing young people.

From the article, it does not say that it is a religious camp explicitly. Nor does it say it's a 'gay conversion' camp (nor that the boy was actually gay). It said he had Attention Deficit Disorder. In that case, could it be that his parents were trying to find some sort of solution/outlet for his disability and thereby send him to this nutjob of a camp. In that or any case, it's just a cruel corrective method for something that's not the young man's fault and that professional support (in order to lead a fulfilling life as ADD, gay, straight, etc) would have been more fruitful.

Too Tough To Die

It's a boeremag camp. Not a gay conversion camp, haha.

RIP