On stress leave and boss wants to meet

CaraMay

I'm on stress leave (due mainly to my boss and workload) from a large business since before Xmas. I have had tummy problems and chest pains since the summer and most of the medical tests have come back clear but I have a scope and ultrasound this week to finish them off. I am 99% sure the pains relate to work stress and am on certified sick leave. I started counselling a couple of weeks back to make myself mentally stronger to deal with my boss when I go back. I'm certified for another 3 weeks yet my boss wants to meet me this week to discuss my return to work (he emailed).

Do I have to meet him? The chest pains are back (and not able to sleep) worse than ever thinking about it.

thomas anderson.

You need to leave your Job.

No job is worth risking your health over

mickdw

Don't meet him if it is causing you further problems meeting him at this point.

CaraMay

I can't ....

I just don't know if legally I need to meet him

cintec

CaraMay wrote: »

I can't ....

I just don't know if legally I need to meet him

do you have a HR department if you do you could contact them and tell them the request to meet with your manager is adding to your stress and anxiety.

greentea is just wrong

If your job is causing you this much ill health, I'd really consider leaving.

I'm not too sure what the legality around having to meet him is. Perhaps speak to your doctor to see how long your sick cert is valid for first?

CaraMay

The cert is until mid February.

greentea is just wrong

If it's only valid until Mid Feb that is probably why he is wanting to meet up to see if you are coming back, or planning on taking longer off.

Are you planning to return mid feb, or try and get your cert extended?

I would speak to your doctor about your anxiety levels again. And as someone said above speak to HR if speaking to your boss is causing you too much stress.

ABajaninCork

I'd be looking for advice BEFORE agreeing to anything. Could you get in contact with NERA/Citizen's Advice/solicitor to get some?

IMO - As you're certified unfit to work, I wouldn't agree to meet until the cert ran out or you're passed fit to return.

If you DO agree to meet? Ask if you have have a friend to sit in on the meeting. However, all they can do is observe/take notes. They cannot take any part whatsoever.

And I'm with the others. No job is worth all this. Get out ASAP.

Good luck!

Dyr

Your job could look to send you to the company doctor for a second opinion

Either way, if you work for a large company then they have a HR dept and only they should be dealing with you on this matter. Your manager/boss should stay out of this. If it was me, I would be making it clear to the HR dept that I'd be raising a grievance with them if he contacted me again while I was sick leave ..

blindsider

I'm surprised that your Manager is contacting you directly - esp. as you work for a large company which surely has a HR dept. I would expect any contact to come from them.

Is your job one that would usually be considered to be potentially stressful e.g. Credit control or sales? Or has the combination of events made it so?

If you're off through stress, I would expect that you and the co. have tried to resolve the issues before it escalated to this. How useful was this?

i) Contact HR - as senior a person as you can. Explain that you're still certified sick, and ask what the company (not the manager, he's acting for the company) wants to achieve by meeting now. You would obviously not go to your place of work while certified sick - you're not allowed to do that - you're not insured. Do HR know that he contacted you directly? Perhaps not.....

ii) Has the company asked you to visit their 'own' doctor? They're quite entitled to do this - it may even be clearly stipulated in your contract.

iii) You need to start analysing the cause of the stress. You say it's your boss. Is he being completely unreasonable? Has anyone else on the team got an issue with him, or is it just you? Have you been treated unfairly? When and how? You'll need to be able to demonstrate this quite clearly.

iv) It's never easy when sth. escalates to this point, but you do need to get it sorted - you're not helping yourself (personally or professionally) and you're not helping the company to meet its objectives.

v) If you can't resolve this, you'll probably need to think about changing jobs. I suggest that you try to work with the company to find an amicable solution - anything else is going to lead to more stress - and I suspect you have enough of that at the moment.

Mr Boom Boom

CaraMay wrote: »

I can't ....

I just don't know if legally I need to meet him

On the contrary you are within your rights to contact the Gardai about him harassing you

drunkmonkey

Mr Boom Boom wrote: »

On the contrary you are within your rights to contact the Gardai about him harassing you

Your boss wanting to talk to you is not a criminal offence.

Mr Boom Boom

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Your boss wanting to talk to you is not a criminal offence.

Yes but harassment is

Mrs OBumble

Mr Boom Boom wrote: »

Yes but harassment is

Ahh, I think that the Guards are pretty good at distinguishing between normal contact and harassment. A phone call or email to a sick employee is not (IMHO, anyway). Even insisting on meeting (at a suitable location, of course) is unlikely to be harassment in the general criminal sense - although employment law (which is a civil matter that the guards do not generally enforce) may see it differently.

Pro Hoc Vice

Mr Boom Boom wrote: »

Yes but harassment is

"Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0010.html#sec10

I would guess that a boss has lawful authority or reasonable excuse to send an e-ail looking for a meeting, also one e-mail does not usually mean persistently.

OP seek proper advice.

Arbiter of Good Taste

The OP has only said their boss has emailed them requesting to meet. Most reasonable people would not consider that to be harassment.

Thoie

Mr Boom Boom wrote: »

Yes but harassment is

Asking if someone is free to meet up to talk about a return to work is not harassment.

From a work perspective, it's perfectly reasonable to have a discussion a few weeks before returning to work. There are all sorts of things to discuss - what your role is going to be, whether you have any special requirements when you return, will you return immediately on a full time basis, or will you ease in with some half days. The answers to some of those will determine how the handover happens - if colleagues have been covering your workload, knowing whether you'll be back full time or part time initially will help with planning.

There could also be a pre-requisite for you to attend the company doctor so that he can certify you as fit to return to work, which would need to be arranged. There's nothing sinister about any of this - similar probably happens for people returning from maternity leave, and is not harassment.

If the company isn't specifically aware that it's your boss that's causing you the stress, they may have thought that contact from someone you know is nicest.

Dyr

you guys are discussing something that will generally be dealt with by employment law, different definition of harassment and it doesn't apply unless you are harassed the grounds on membership of certain categories

mickstheman

If you do decide to meet him bring somebody with you as a witness

Loughc

As someone else stated he prob just wants to see how you are, if you plan on returning and all that. I wouldn't view it as a pre-attack or anything.

You find as well outside of the work environment people are alot calmer and nicer so it may not be an idea if you are to meet your boss to ensure it happens in a public place outside of the office/work environment.

L.Jenkins

I have yet to see someone answer the question put fourth by the OP. The OP is anxious due in part by their manager and is wonder if they 'have to' meet them.

Mr Boom Boom

Itzy wrote: »

I have yet to see someone answer the question put fourth by the OP. The OP is anxious due in part by their manager and is wonder if they 'have to' meet them.

Considering this could be legally classed as harassment due to the stress involved then the answer is no

GreeBo

You dont have to meet anyone, you are on certified sick leave.

However, as has been pointed out, as far as anyone else knows, you are returning to work in approx 3 weeks.
Your boss is entitled to wonder if thats still the case or you will be out longer.

I can understand that this might be stressful you, based on the past, but I wouldnt read anything into it.
I'd meet him and if he is pressurizing you etc, leave and report him to HR.

He might well want to meet to see what he can do to help when you return.

L.Jenkins

Mr Boom Boom wrote: »

Considering this could be legally classed as harassment due to the stress involved then the answer is no

Please refer to the definition of the term 'Harassment'. before you toss it around. A request to meet does not constitute harassment, unless the language used in the email can be shown to fit such a definition. The OP has yet to indicate if this is the case.

Dyr

Itzy wrote: »

I have yet to see someone answer the question put fourth by the OP. The OP is anxious due in part by their manager and is wonder if they 'have to' meet them.

The answer is contact your HR dept, they need to clarify the companys position

CaraMay

Thanks all. I don't feel harassed by this email but he could qualify from before. Before i returned to work onto his new team I was on parental leave and he contacted me when I was still off to ask me to attend a meeting of the new team. He also asked me at that time to give him my annual leave request for the entire year (this was January). There was weekend testing and he asked me to come in on a Sunday for a while. I said I couldn't as I had no childminder but he said to bring the toddler in as he needed me to come in (3 other people could have done it).

He likes to call in his way home in the evening for his hour long car journey and normally at around 7 p m (we finish work at 5). He has no boundaries and has undermined me frequently with my clients. I know how to do my job but he has me and my colleagues all doubting ourselves. Another girl is off on stress leave and another one left in maternity leave early to get away from him.

He is a nasty piece of work but very clever and I was not clever enough to record all the things he had done as I'm not used to dealing with people like him. I'm raging now I wasn't firmer at the start and feel so stupid when I see what I let him away with. I can't go into details of how he undermined me but he did.

Huggles

I know its a difficult time. I have been there but with hindsight I was so consumed by the person harassing me at work I couldn't see the wood for the trees and felt I could never get another role outside the one I was fig hint to hold on to.

Some of the things you have detailed below are not ok. Does he have a boss that you can report his behaviour to? Can you go through some of this with HR?

I think your going to have to leave and find something else or just put up with it. And no job is worth putting up with it. Best of luck.

CaraMay wrote: »

Thanks all. I don't feel harassed by this email but he could qualify from before. Before i returned to work onto his new team I was on parental leave and he contacted me when I was still off to ask me to attend a meeting of the new team. He also asked me at that time to give him my annual leave request for the entire year (this was January). There was weekend testing and he asked me to come in on a Sunday for a while. I said I couldn't as I had no childminder but he said to bring the toddler in as he needed me to come in (3 other people could have done it).

He likes to call in his way home in the evening for his hour long car journey and normally at around 7 p m (we finish work at 5). He has no boundaries and has undermined me frequently with my clients. I know how to do my job but he has me and my colleagues all doubting ourselves. Another girl is off on stress leave and another one left in maternity leave early to get away from him.

He is a nasty piece of work but very clever and I was not clever enough to record all the things he had done as I'm not used to dealing with people like him. I'm raging now I wasn't firmer at the start and feel so stupid when I see what I let him away with. I can't go into details of how he undermined me but he did.

bobwilliams

CaraMay wrote: »

I can't ....

I just don't know if legally I need to meet him

no you do not have to meet him legally,however,it is not considered to be an unreasonable request for managers to ask to meet staff out on stress for an update.
It happens in my job,my advice would be ask your doctor/therapist if they think you are up to it.By the vibe I'm getting I think you should not meet him.
Are they paying you in full?

bobwilliams

sorry op just to clarify one thing(btw my wife is a HR manager)they SHOULD NOT contact you when you're out on SL but legally you defo DON'T have to meet them.
If you have a Q fot the wife let me know,yes every company has their own handbook etc but certain things are law and trump their poxy company rules.

CaraMay

bobwilliams wrote: »

sorry op just to clarify one thing(btw my wife is a HR manager)they SHOULD NOT contact you when you're out on SL but legally you defo DON'T have to meet them.
If you have a Q fot the wife let me know,yes every company has their own handbook etc but certain things are law and trump their poxy company rules.

Thank you very much

road_high

OP if you are this distraught at the thoughts of even meeting him, what's it going to be like when you back?
Unfortunately I don't think going back is a realistic proposition just yet.

Wompa1

Is it a coincidence that everybody that took leave is a female. Does he just look down on the ladies and treat them bad? How are the men treated?

If a job is causing that much anxiety, then it's probably time to move on to somewhere else.

If I were you, I'd resign myself to the fact that I'm leaving the job, then I'd agree to meet the boss (with a HR rep present). Knowing that I was leaving, any fear, anxiousness or nervousness would be significantly downplayed (as, lets be fair, if you're leaving, you don't really care what he thinks and he can't really have an effect on you anymore).

Explain that you're unhappy and want X and Y changed to suit you. Worse case scenario is that they tell you to feck off, in which case, as far as you're concerned, you were leaving anyway. In a positive outcome, you might actually, by voicing your thoughts, be able to get back to work and not have to see as much of your boss as you currently do, or he may adapt a different approach to dealings with you if he knows you're uncomfortable.


There's nothing better than a good dose of honesty! (although, to be fair, it's wording it all the right way that can be the tricky part!).


Either way, best of luck.

CaraMay

Wompa1 wrote: »

Is it a coincidence that everybody that took leave is a female. Does he just look down on the ladies and treat them bad? How are the men treated?

There is only one other man in our office and they were at each other's weddings... He told me at that meeting I attended while on parental leave that we need more men in the office and to let him know if I know any suitable guys - to balance out the numbers.

I am also very pd off as he is the only one who saw my cert which says 'absent due to stress' yet I bumped into a customer over Xmas and a staff member I don't know well who both knew I was off with stress.

I would love to nail this guy to the cross but he is slippery and I was not clever enough to detail everything.

Maura74

It would be best to meet him, as they will make decision about your absence and is best if you are there. However contact him first and advise that you are very unwell and you would love to attend the meeting but cannot drive or take public transport and as they are requesting the meeting ask them to pay for a cab to take you there and back, also following up the conversation in writing. The other alternative is for them to come to you home and have the meeting there.

Maura74

Also check to see if your condition falls within disability and if it does you will have a lot more clout with the law.
If you have the meeting in your home have someone there with you and tap the conversation for your own use but you will have to do it surreptitiously as it will not look good for you if you are seen doing it.

RedNails

Hi Op. I'm sorry you are going through this. It can affect your whole life from top to bottom. Blindsider has covered a lot of things I would agree with already but if I can suggest one or two things?

Firstly, I would recommend against taping any conversations as this is questionable on a legal front, without the other person's knowledge and consent. By all means ask to have a witness present if you feel this will make you more comfortable. It can be very useful to take notes during any meeting for several reasons. For starters, it puts anyone on their guard for saying the wrong thing! It is also a good idea to email the person afterwards with a very brief synopsis of the meeting - it serves as a kind of record. (i.e. Dear x. To cover off what was discussed today...)

What I noticed from your posts was you mentioned that your sick cert cited 'work related stress'. This is distinct from simply stating 'stress'. Under health and safety legislation, your employer now has a duty of care to you. This generally involves ensuring you are fit to return to work. They may ask you to provide a 'fitness to attend/return to work' certificate from your doctor and might also refer you to the company doctor. This might be the reason (excuse?) for contacting you.

At the end of the day, your employer can reasonably ask you to meet to discuss your return to work. These 'return to work' interviews have become very common in most industries in Ireland and particularly in larger companies.

By the way, some of the behaviour you mentioned is completely unacceptable from a boss and is tantamount to bullying (very different from harassment, legally. See here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...workplace.html)

The decision is ultimately yours. Whether you decide to try and keep this job or not, bear in mind - you can ask HR for a copy of your company's grievance procedure and at least have a read and see if it is something you want to pursue. All employers are required to have a policy and it can be very empowering to face up to a bully.

Sorry for going on, but in the end - best of luck in whatever you decide to do. [For the record, have been an employee rep for over 10 years and if you want to pm me, please feel free] Good luck!

tatli_lokma

bobwilliams wrote: »

sorry op just to clarify one thing(btw my wife is a HR manager)they SHOULD NOT contact you when you're out on SL but legally you defo DON'T have to meet them.

This is not true - there is nothing in law to say you can't be contacted while off sick. Of course the contact should be reasonable and not put your under undue pressure when off sick. As an example, it is actually recommended by several illness support groups that you keep in touch with someone off sick for more than 2 weeks so that they still feel connected to the company and part of the team. This contact would be along the lines of just checking to see how they're doing, letting them know of any goings on at the workplace such as any changes that might affect their own duties, inviting them to any social events that would be appropriate. As long as it is done tactfully and is not intrusive it is not necessarily a bad thing to contact staff when they are out sick for a long period as it can make returning to work easier - the longer you are out sometimes the harder it can be to return as you no longer feel connected to your workplace or team. If a staff member of mine was out sick with stress I would be more inclined to ensure that they do not feel alienated by their illness.

That said, if I was accused of being the cause of the stress I wouldn't contact the person and would get another member of staff sympathetic to the situation or HR to do it. Sounds to me that OP's boss doesn't seem to realise he is the cause of the stress - probably just thinks OP isn't cut out for the job or is being a bit of a wuss (which is clearly not the case but people like your boss often don't see their own part in such things). Either that or he has been instructed to contact you in advance of your return as HR are unaware of his part in your illness.

OP you need to let HR know and keep in touch with them regularly yourself. This will mean your boss has no need to contact you and also will look better for you if it ever comes to you needing to take things further from an employment law point of view.

Hope you feel better soon OP and can either get things resolved so you can return to work in better circumstances or find somewhere else where you are more valued as an employee.

whomitconcerns

been there with an employee recently. Its quite simple, the company can ask(insist) that you to meet with the company doctor. Simply reply to your boss that you are not really feeling up to it at the moment, but can meet the company doctor at an appointment of their setting.

Leave it at that

Maura74

Very good advice from above posters, but I have known when an employers have asked employees in for in for a one to one but sometimes there are 2 people there one taking notes and the other questioning the employee about their illness.

Also, managers are under pressure as well to meet targets and perhaps bonuses maybe involved as well.

In the times we are in today it is dog eat dog in the employment front and thankfully I am retired from it. Be as flexible as possible as you will need them for reference for any future employment and or promotions.

Be very careful what you say on open forums as employers looks at employment sites as well.

bobwilliams

tatli_lokma wrote: »

This is not true - there is nothing in law to say you can't be contacted while off sick.
.

read my post again,where did I say this?? Isaid legally whilst on WRS she does not legally have to meet them,this was the op's question.
I didn't say they can't legally contact her.

No Pants

CaraMay wrote: »

He likes to call in his way home in the evening for his hour long car journey and normally at around 7 p m (we finish work at 5).

If I'm reading this correctly, that he calls to your home unannounced, this is simply not on and he should be told. Bluntly. "Don't call here. You have no business here." If he persists, then that's bordering on harassment. In order to deal with work stress, you must be able to leave work.

For this requested meeting, I'll let you decide whether or not you feel up to me. I was once off on stress leave, back in late 2005/early 2006. My boss requested a meeting, so I met him for a cuppa in town. Meeting was fine, he was obviously treating me with kid gloves. He enquired how I was, did I feel I was getting better, when I thought I might return and he confirmed my salary status. I didn't feel like I was under any pressure having worked myself up about it beforehand and I had walked in determined to walk out if I was stressed in any way. Your boss sounds different though.

whomitconcerns

if you are off sick you are ostensibly not fit for work but are still on work time. this is why an employer can insist you see the company doctor. However, no you do not have to meet with them. As i said above offer to meet company doctor if they need more information.

If you are on holidays then its personal time and they are (in theory) not allowed to contact you.

blindsider

No Pants wrote: »

If I'm reading this correctly, that he calls to your home unannounced, this is simply not on and he should be told. Bluntly. "Don't call here. You have no business here." If he persists, then that's bordering on harassment. In order to deal with work stress, you must be able to leave work.
.

I read it that he calls from mobile when in the car on his way home - he doesn't physically go to her home.

Still - calling someone at 7pm (2 hrs after work normally finishes) is not on unless it's urgent......but the solution is just not answering the phone....

OP - lots of advice on here now -most of it useful and constructive.

You need to take control of the situation and deal with it on your terms, not theirs.

fiacha

I've been through this before and had exactly the same anxiety whenever my manager contacted me.
As others have stated, your manager probably wants to know if you will be back when your current cert runs out. I'm assuming they need to have someone covering your role while you are out, so they need to plan ahead. In my case, company policy was to stay in contact with my manager during extending sick leave, I just did this via email.

Some steps that might help you:
1. Reply to your manager via email, saying that you are still seeing your doctor (no need to give details) and will update them as soon as you can.
2. Contact your HR dept and find out if you can deal with them directly going forward. No harm in confirming the sick leave policies with them at this stage.
3. Make sure you keep a written record of all communications with your manager / HR. Do it all by email, or follow up a phonecall with an email.
4. If you are not getting any help from HR, contact your Occupational Health team (if there is one).
5. Don't entertain any outside advice about quitting your job. This is a decision to be made once you are feeling better.

I know having to deal with this now is just adding to your anxiety, but you will feel a lot better once you know what needs to be done going forward. You can then concentrate on getting better.

Anxiety is a horrible condition to deal with, and is often not taken seriously by others. it can be managed, and things will improve for you.

Stick with the counselling. You may also find something like Mindfulness helpful for dealing will stress going forward. There are plenty of books / websites on this.

CaraMay

Thanks everyone for the support and amazing advice. He used to ring not call to my house and I eventually stopped answering.

I have no problem seeing the company doctor at all.

I have a small investigative procedure this week relating to my chest pains (which I had previously advised) and responded to explain I could not meet this week due to this.

It's really dog eat dog in our place and I'm specifically under pressure as I'm the only one who HAS to leave at finishing time. He doesn't appreciate that.

theenergy

maybe your manager is meeting to meet you out of concern and worry to see how you are?

the last thing the company is for someone having a personal injuries case against them for a mental breakdown

id meet the guy with an open mind

just be honest with them

Maura74

CaraMay wrote: »

Thanks everyone for the support and amazing advice. He used to ring not call to my house and I eventually stopped answering.

I have no problem seeing the company doctor at all.

I have a small investigative procedure this week relating to my chest pains (which I had previously advised) and responded to explain I could not meet this week due to this.

It's really dog eat dog in our place and I'm specifically under pressure as I'm the only one who HAS to leave at finishing time. He doesn't appreciate that.

You said that you were on paternal leave therefore if the reason for leaving on time is for that reason then he should accept that. Check you employment contract or other websites and see if it say anything about employers responsibility regarding employees in respect of parenthood. Some multinational employees have their staff term and conditions online.

drunkmonkey

CaraMay wrote: »

It's really dog eat dog in our place and I'm specifically under pressure as I'm the only one who HAS to leave at finishing time. He doesn't appreciate that.

Is there a finishing time in your contract?, some jobs do need you to put in extra hours in the month/year. You leaving early while someone else ends up doing your job is not fair on everyone else. There is more than likely a clause in your contract that states you will be required to work extra when needed.
If your job is one of those ones you can't expect to walk out at 5 and nobody bat an eyelid.
If you have to leave at a certain time and can't do what the business needs you to your not suitable for the job and should sit down with your manager or HR and explain that.
I'm in no way surprised your boss has the hump with you if your putting pressure on everyone else by always leaving by a certain time. Everyone else have lives as well, your part or a team and if that means mucking in the odd evening you should be doing it.

CaraMay

I leave at my finishing time, don't take the 40 minute coffee breaks the others do and rarely take lunch. My work is my own and doesn't impact on anyone else but having to leave at finishing time has put more pressure on me due to work volumes.