Driving brother's UK car in Ireland

ra0044

Hi all.

Basically my brother privately leases a 5 series BMW in the uk and I am on his insurance as a named drive for when I go over to visit.

Now his company have decided to send him abroad for 14 months and the car will be sitting there unused and he asked if I wanted to use it over here while he is away.

Is there anyway I can do this properly as frankly my car is on its last legs and I can't afford to replace it. I do appreciate however that this is probably impossible but would be handy.

Many thanks

mickdw

As I understand it, an Irish resident cannot in any case legally drive a uk registered car here unless they have just bought it in uk and it is within the time period allowable for them to get it registered here.
If you were to give your circumstances to a customs officer while driving that bmw here, It would immediately be taken off you Im thinking.

No Pants

Can't be done legally.

mickdw

I guess one could similarly ask: Is it possible to lease a car in the uk in a family members name and find some way of driving it here.

ra0044

thanks for he replies.

I assumed it wouldn't be possble but it would have been handy. The car is less than a month old and he can't break the lease without a large penalty.

Seems a shame for t to be just sitting there.

Oh well it was a nce idea. Wll have to keep driving the heap i have.

Thanks again

puppetmaster

If you have a verifiable address in the UK that you are resident in its possible, so your brother could drive it here. But if customs stop you in it they unfortunately have every right to confiscate it and impound the vehicle. And they're not shy about doing it either!

corktina

transfer car into your name
pay the VRT
when he wants it back...reclaim VRT (Less €500 admin fee and depreciation allowance)
reclaim old UK reg number.

I doubt you'd bother though

ra0044

The car is leased so sadly not an option as he doesn't own it.
He is now hoping his company may be willing to pay the fee to break the lease as a good will gesture for moving him abroad without notice.

ra0044

The car is leased so sadly not an option as he doesn't own it.
He is now hoping his company may be willing to pay the fee to break the lease as a good will gesture for moving him abroad without notice.

mickdw

ra0044 wrote: »

The car is leased so sadly not an option as he doesn't own it.
He is now hoping his company may be willing to pay the fee to break the lease as a good will gesture for moving him abroad without notice.

That would be best option if company pay for this.

Stella Virgo

ra0044 wrote: »

Hi all.

Basically my brother privately leases a 5 series BMW in the uk and I am on his insurance as a named drive for when I go over to visit.

Now his company have decided to send him abroad for 14 months and the car will be sitting there unused and he asked if I wanted to use it over here while he is away.

Is there anyway I can do this properly as frankly my car is on its last legs and I can't afford to replace it. I do appreciate however that this is probably impossible but would be handy.

Many thanks

no it cant be done.and whats a lot worse is ,if the nice gentlemen ;)at the customs stop you,they may/will seize the car on the spot......and you or your bro will have to come up with a large wedge of wonga to pay the bill :eek:

Chopper12

My insurance policy in the UK covers me to drive in the EU for up to 120 days. If your brothers insurance policy on the BMW also covers this and you are a named driver on the vehicle then why can you not drive it in Ireland?

If customs stop you all you have to say is it is my brother's car, he is living in the UK but is currently on holiday and I am a named driver on the policy. That way he is not eligible for VRT as your brother is not moving back to Ireland and still resides in the UK.

This will only be the case if the insurance policy has the EU cover though.

corktina

that is exactly the reason why an Irish resident may not drive a foreign registered car in Ireland. It doesn't matter what Insurance you have, its a Customs requirement to stop people avoiding VRT in this way

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

corktina wrote: »

that is exactly the reason why an Irish resident may not drive a foreign registered car in Ireland. It doesn't matter what Insurance you have, its a Customs requirement to stop people avoiding VRT in this way

the car would only be in the country with this driver for 2 weeks, ya wouldn't even get a vrt booking in that time.

corktina

That's not the point.

coylemj

On insurance, it would be crazy to expect the UK policy to cover the OP driving the brother's car in Ireland when his brother no longer lives in the UK. Call it an assignment or whatever you like but leaving the country for 14 months means you can't have a policy of insurance on a UK car for the simple reason that you no longer live there.

Expecting the cover to extend to the OP driving the brother's car in Ireland for a year on a UK policy in the name of someone who doesn't live in the UK is fanciful in the extreme.

As corktina says above, there would also be a problem with the VRT. If people here could drive around in a UK-registered car and use that excuse (it's my brother's car and he's away in (foreign country) for a year so I'm driving it), why would anyone bother to pay VRT on an imported car?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

I just noticed it says 14 months ... I mistook that for days !

Sorry OP. Not a hope !

slimjimmc

Chopper12 wrote: »

My insurance policy in the UK covers me to drive in the EU for up to 120 days. If your brothers insurance policy on the BMW also covers this and you are a named driver on the vehicle then why can you not drive it in Ireland?

If customs stop you all you have to say is it is my brother's car, he is living in the UK but is currently on holiday and I am a named driver on the policy. That way he is not eligible for VRT as your brother is not moving back to Ireland and still resides in the UK.

This will only be the case if the insurance policy has the EU cover though.

No Irish resident is permitted to use, borrow or hire a foreign reg car and the situation the OP described does not qualify for an exemption.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

Maphisto

corktina wrote: »

that is exactly the reason why an Irish resident may not drive a foreign registered car in Ireland. It doesn't matter what Insurance you have, its a Customs requirement to stop people avoiding VRT in this way

So if a relative comes over from UK with their car, we all go out for a meal and I say you have a drink I'll drive - We could both end up in the $hite?

I only asked because its happened a couple of times.


This post has become unnecessary now given slimjimmc's post but its all a bit North Korean!

CiniO

Maphisto wrote: »

So if a relative comes over from UK with their car, we all go out for a meal and I say you have a drink I'll drive - We could both end up in the $hite?

I only asked because its happened a couple of times.


This post has become unnecessary now given slimjimmc's post but its all a bit North Korean!

A bit? It's mental. I was in the same case few years back, and chanced it. Friends arrived in Polish registered car, and we went sightseeing around West coast. Driver got tired at some stage, so I drove. Illegally, but hey - I wasn't caught. That's all what counts with such stupid laws.

CiniO

No Pants wrote: »

Can't be done legally.

It can't unfortunately.
I really hope in some foreseeable future EU is going to do something with it, as it's purely limiting free transfer of goods between EU, so can't be legal under EU laws.

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

as it's purely limiting free transfer of goods between EU

No it's not.

CiniO

Chopper12 wrote: »

My insurance policy in the UK covers me to drive in the EU for up to 120 days.

Every insurance issued in the EU, must provide full unlimited third party cover for all period of policy covering driving all over EU.
So while any extras on your policy might be limited to 120days (like fire, theft, own car damage, windscreen, etc), but third party cover can not be limited, so there can't be issue of driving without insurance.

CiniO

challengemaster wrote: »

No it's not.

OP can not borrow a car of his brother, just because brother lives in different EU country.
Are you really saying it's not limiting transfer of goods?

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

OP can not borrow a car of his brother, just because brother lives in different EU country.
Are you really saying it's not limiting transfer of goods?

That's not what "free transfer of goods" means.

CiniO

challengemaster wrote: »

That's not what "free transfer of goods" means.

Whether it is or it is not, I still trust that EU will do something with it.
Ireland (and few other countries) are just taking a p1ss with that and it will need to be changed.

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

Whether it is or it is not

It's not. Free movement of goods refers to the prohibition on member states of applying a levy/tax/customs duty upon crossing the border to other member states.

It has absolutely nothing to do with any Irish citizen being able to drive a car registered outside the state.

keithclancy

CiniO wrote: »

It can't unfortunately.
I really hope in some foreseeable future EU is going to do something with it, as it's purely limiting free transfer of goods between EU, so can't be legal under EU laws.

EU have no mandate on it, nor do they have any mandate on local laws regarding Tax.

They just recommend that when there is no tax implication you accompany someone when they drive your car.

Emailed them about a German resident driving my Dutch registered car in Belgium...

They were like .... Ehhhh ... probably better you're in the Car with them at all times.

Saying that I left a french girl borrow my car to go to France ... she has large boobs so I figured everything would be fine.

CiniO

challengemaster wrote: »

It's not. Free movement of goods refers to the prohibition on member states of applying a levy/tax/customs duty upon crossing the border to other member states.

I disagree.
Where does it say that limiting free movements of goods refers to taxes only?

Perfect example is case C-639/11 in EU court of justice, where Poland lost against EU commission in relation to prohibition of registration of RHD vehicles, under breaking free movements of goods laws.
No taxes involved. They allowed RHD vehicles on Polish roads, but didn't allow to register them, effectively not allowing Polish residents to import vehicles from UK and Ireland. Now they will have to.

Funnily enough, if OP lived in Poland, and intended to borrow UK registered car from his brother in UK for 14 months, he could do so fully legally without any problems.

It has absolutely nothing to do with any Irish citizen being able to drive a car registered outside the state.

I think you meant resident, as Irish citizens are allowed to drive foreign cars, if they are not resident in Ireland.

recyclebin

It does seem anti anyone resident in Ireland. If a French man brings his car to Ireland can a German person drive it freely but an Irish person can't without paying VRT?

Are there any other such laws in other EU countries?

CiniO

keithclancy wrote: »

EU have no mandate on it, nor do they have any mandate on local laws regarding Tax.

They could have. That's what all EU is about.
If they were able to force all countries in EU to allow people from any EU country to live in any other EU country without limitations, then I can't see a reason why cars movement must be limited. Hopefully it will be unified at some stage, hopefully with EU wide registrations and insurances.

They just recommend that when there is no tax implication you accompany someone when they drive your car.

Emailed them about a German resident driving my Dutch registered car in Belgium...

They were like .... Ehhhh ... probably better you're in the Car with them at all times.

Heh, doesn't sound too convincing.

Saying that I left a french girl borrow my car to go to France ... she has large boobs so I figured everything would be fine.

With large boobs she probably even would be OK in Ireland

CiniO

recyclebin wrote: »

It does seem anti anyone resident in Ireland. If a French man brings his car to Ireland can a German person drive it freely but an Irish person can't without paying VRT?

That's exactly how it works.

Are there any other such laws in other EU countries?

Possibly in few of them. But not many I'd imagine.

keithclancy

recyclebin wrote: »

It does seem anti-Irish though. If a French man brings his car to Ireland can a German person drive it freely but an Irish person can't without paying VRT?

Are there any other such laws in other EU countries?

Netherlands for one.

If you get caught and they find that you are registered in the national database as a resident that car is going on a transporter.

Where you are from doesn't matter.

A Irish person resident in Spain could drive a foreign registered German car in the Netherlands is no problem.

A Irish person resident in the Netherlands driving a foreign registered German car is a problem.

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

I disagree.
Where does it say that limiting free movements of goods refers to taxes only?

It doesn't, nor did I say it was limited to that. I wasn't all that bothered being pedantic about what I said, it was more giving an example proving you're wrong in your interpretation.

Either way, there's no "limiting free movement of goods between member states" going on. There is limitations placed on residents of a state, but that still isn't stopping the movement of goods freely between countries.

I think you meant resident, as Irish citizens are allowed to drive foreign cars, if they are not resident in Ireland.

Funny how you can pay attention to what things say when it suits you

keithclancy

CiniO wrote: »

They could have. That's what all EU is about.
If they were able to force all countries in EU to allow people from any EU country to live in any other EU country without limitations, then I can't see a reason why cars movement must be limited. Hopefully it will be unified at some stage, hopefully with EU wide registrations and insurances.

My understanding is that its too entwined with national laws on liability, taxation and so on.

That's a lot of crap to work out, ffs, Ireland only got the plastic license in the last few years ... give them a chance

The free movement thing though, the point is that the registration is always tied to a residence, I think thats what satisfied the requirement for the free movement thing. Read a court case ruling ages ago, can't find it now !

Supergurrier

Typical backward Ireland putting a new BMW to waste.

With still the same people defending it.

recyclebin

It looks like roaming charges for phones will be completely gone soon.

It seems like the EU lawmakers like to protect some industries and open up others.

corktina

Supergurrier wrote: »

Typical backward Ireland putting a new BMW to waste.

With still the same people defending it.

what's it to do with Ireland? It's a UK car.

Re-registering it is the way to go

keithclancy

recyclebin wrote: »

It looks like roaming charges for phones will be completely gone soon.

It seems like the EU lawmakers like to protect some industries and open up others.

Well not really... The free movement thing is tackling cross border working and travelling first.

I don't mind having a Dutch registered car while working in Germany, but its difficult to have a Dutch phone and not get raped on roaming charges.

The car thing is more complicated as you would just be benefiting from registering your car in the country which has the most beneficial taxation system for you. Never mind the liability and how the insurance works, penalty points, fines, tolls etc.

IMO they should tackle healthcare, taxation and social security before they tackle cars, far more important.

slimjimmc

Supergurrier wrote: »

Typical backward Ireland putting a new BMW to waste.

With still the same people defending it.

It seems to be the norm EU wide except that residents can drive if the owner is in the car, but that won't apply to the OP anyway.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/taxes/index_en.htm
(Their bolding)

Temporary stays
If you keep your normal residence from your Member State but you stay in another EU country for less than 6 months, you do not have to register your car or pay any taxes there - it will remain registered in your country of residence.

If you are staying in another EU country for less than 6 months and have not registered your car there, you may not legally lend or rent your car to a resident of that country, who may only drive your car if you are in the car with him/her.

You may, however, lend your car to visiting friends or family - provided they are not resident in your new country.

If you are staying in another country for more than 6 months, you should normally change your residence to this country and you must register your car there.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

I disagree.
Where does it say that limiting free movements of goods refers to taxes only?

Perfect example is case C-639/11 in EU court of justice, where Poland lost against EU commission in relation to prohibition of registration of RHD vehicles, under breaking free movements of goods laws.
No taxes involved. They allowed RHD vehicles on Polish roads, but didn't allow to register them, effectively not allowing Polish residents to import vehicles from UK and Ireland. Now they will have to.

Funnily enough, if OP lived in Poland, and intended to borrow UK registered car from his brother in UK for 14 months, he could do so fully legally without any problems.



I think you meant resident, as Irish citizens are allowed to drive foreign cars, if they are not resident in Ireland.

There is no prohibition on the car entering the jurisdiction; the prohibition applies to Irish residents (of whatever nationality) using the car in Ireland. That is a purely national matter (under the principle of subsidiarity) in which the a EU has no competence and in which it cannot interfere. Ireland cannot prohibit non residents from availing of these freedoms but it is perfectly permissible for Irish residents (technically persons established in Ireland) to be treated less favourably.

A good example is the penal treatment of English students in Scottish and Welsh universities when compared to those from other EU member states. Unfortunately you're on a hiding to nothing here.

Full disclosure: I have brought each of my 3 cars to Ireland over the past year and have permitted Irish resident friends to test them so long as they could prove they were insured. I took the "seizure" risk.

challengemaster

Maisie Sharp Shop wrote: »

You could just give his name if stopped and get him to present himself and his uk licence at a later date at whatever station. Just dont crash.

Don't think there's any presenting at a later date for people driving foreign reg'd vehicles. On the spot or they're detaining you until they can verify your identity I'd imagine.

Chopper12

Thanks for clearing that up:

EU Regs:

"If you are staying in another EU country for less than 6 months and have not registered your car there, you may not legally lend or rent your car to a resident of that country, who may only drive your car if you are in the car with him/her.

You may, however, lend your car to visiting friends or family - provided they are not resident in your new country.

If you are staying in another country for more than 6 months, you should normally change your residence to this country and you must register your car there".

I assumed that if you were on holiday in Ireland with your foreign registered car that a family member could drive it provided they had their own comprehensive policy. My brother did this with my van a few years back for a couple of months.

I think you will have to inform your insurance company and get them to name that person on the policy for the time you need. I think it cost me about £30 for a friend who drove my van in France for a weekend one time.

Henry Ford III

Maisie Sharp Shop wrote: »

You could just give his name if stopped and get him to present himself and his uk licence at a later date at whatever station. Just dont crash.

Dreadful advice. It's all sorts of wrong.