Anyone thinking about dairy partnerships

grazeaway

I know there is the odd article on partnerships in journo every now and then but I don't know anyone actually doing one.

Anyway being thinking that the suckler game might not be a runner in a few years time. Was chatting with one of my friends recently and he is in a similar boat to myself. Our farms are of similar size and part of his is bouncing mine. We are also both working full time off the farm.

Between both farms there would be about 150 ac so would have enough room for about 100 cows, replacements, calves and silage ground and maybe enough for some tillage.

What was floating around in my head was that we could set up a partnership and that the partnership would lease the land and yards. We used to milk here and still have the housing and parlour. His place has housing for dry cattle. The parlour, milking machine, roadways and housing would all need to be upgraded but could be done more easy on our place. The plan would be to hire a farm manager to run the herd and farm as we would be both off site and really only around at weekends and evenings.

Realistically neither of our farms are big enough to make a go of full time basis and it wouldn't make sense for us to pack in the jobs. But combined it might be far more viable.

Anyone do something like this or experience of seeing it done?

sheebadog

I would have no problem taking on a partner.

delaval

sheebadog wrote: »

I would have no problem taking on a partner.

I'll pack my bags. The thoughts of wearing shorts from May till Oct is appealing.

rs8

would robots be an option?

Bactidiaryl

Sounds like a good option. Make sure everything is down on paper down to the minor detail. I think this type of scenario is going to be popular if there is going to be big differences in other sectors profit margins.

moy83

I was giving this a bit of thought recently too . Say I had 100/150 k cash to use , I have over 100 acres that could rear heifers , and possibly convert 30/40 cattle into dairy cows .
What kind of deal could I expect ?

farmerjj

grazeaway wrote: »

The plan would be to hire a farm manager to run the herd and farm as we would be both off site and really only around at weekends and evenings.
QUOTE]

I think one question you should ask yourself is would you be making more of a profit the way you are now or in a dairy partnership with a farm manager. Say the milk price is 30CENT. I couldn't see you been better off especially if you,v 2buy milking equipment!

grazeaway

farmerjj wrote: »

grazeaway wrote: »

The plan would be to hire a farm manager to run the herd and farm as we would be both off site and really only around at weekends and evenings.
QUOTE]

I think one question you should ask yourself is would you be making more of a profit the way you are now or in a dairy partnership with a farm manager. Say the milk price is 30CENT. I couldn't see you been better off especially if you,v 2buy milking equipment!

It's a fair point but I suppose it comes down to where will the better options be in a few years. I do think the sucklers will rebound a bit as it does seem a lot of fellas are thinking about getting back into milking. However in the long term I'm not so sure how much of a runner it will be for me. I rely a lot on the boss man to keep an eye on the cows when I'm in work espically this time of the year with calving. He is knocking on 70 now and I'm fairly sure he wants to able to do his own thing too.

I don't have a huge amount of experience with finishing cattle. So changing to a different dry stock system might not be hugely advantage.

Timmaay

I think the actual partnership will be a much bigger change than becoming a dairyfarmer. The only huge difference between a dairyfarmer and a suckler farmer is you got to milk twice a day every day, if you are already a decent livestock man, and have a fairly good handle on grassland management, then it really isn't a huge leap. The key thing would be to stick with a herd of low maintenance/low yeilding dairy cows, at least for the 1st few yrs while you get your feet, milk can always be bred back into the cows.

grazeaway

rs8 wrote: »

would robots be an option?

Yes and no. It is some thing that I have looked into but to get the optimium out of the robot I would need to be milking 65-70 cows. My grazing platform would be able to take this number of cows but I would have to contract rear the heifers. I would also have to lease extra land for silage ground. If there was a robot that was designed to do 45-50 cows (2/3's the standard one and it's cost was also 2/3's the standard one) I would consider it.

Housing, slurry storage, paddock upgrading and bulk tank would be the same cost with a convential parlour. I have worked out that it could cost me about 18k a year to hire in a milker.

As it is I reckon my farm size is just about borderline for making it viable for milking but not viable for me to do it full time.

just do it

They say business partnerships are harder to make work than marriage. Better off to get a long term lease on other farm if you can.

moy83

just do it wrote: »

They say business partnerships are harder to make work than marriage. Better off to get a long term lease on other farm if you can.

Thats true , I know of two dairy boys that teamed up two years ago and one of them is not as happy now as he was beforehand . He reckons he is taking home about the same and the workload didnt drop as much as he hoped either .
What ever about the partnership , he said upping the number of cows didnt boost his takings as much as his labour !

exercise is the antidote

grazeaway wrote: »

Yes and no. It is some thing that I have looked into but to get the optimium out of the robot I would need to be milking 65-70 cows. My grazing platform would be able to take this number of cows but I would have to contract rear the heifers. I would also have to lease extra land for silage ground. If there was a robot that was designed to do 45-50 cows (2/3's the standard one and it's cost was also 2/3's the standard one) I would consider it.

Housing, slurry storage, paddock upgrading and bulk tank would be the same cost with a convential parlour. I have worked out that it could cost me about 18k a year to hire in a milker.

As it is I reckon my farm size is just about borderline for making it viable for milking but not viable for me to do it full time.

How many acres where you judging that on? For the 45-50 cows with the robot? Looked into it myself a while ago and can't understand how lads get these sums from the banks! You here about fellas getting into milk setting up robots, then you here how banks ar not lending..? Some lads are magicians.....

farmerjj

moy83 wrote: »

Thats true , I know of two dairy boys that teamed up two years ago and one of them is not as happy now as he was beforehand . He reckons he is taking home about the same and the workload didnt drop as much as he hoped either .
What ever about the partnership , he said upping the number of cows didnt boost his takings as much as his labour !

+1

grazeaway

Timmaay wrote: »

I think the actual partnership will be a much bigger change than becoming a dairyfarmer. The only huge difference between a dairyfarmer and a suckler farmer is you got to milk twice a day every day, if you are already a decent livestock man, and have a fairly good handle on grassland management, then it really isn't a huge leap. The key thing would be to stick with a herd of low maintenance/low yeilding dairy cows, at least for the 1st few yrs while you get your feet, milk can always be bred back into the cows.

Well we were milking up to about 10 years ago so I have the basics, that said I would have to do some up skilling. We run the sucklers the same as we did the dairy cows, same grazing management but with lower inputs and no milking. Work wise, I am pretty much at the limit of what I am prepared to do as I want to have some life. So the extra labour needs to be factored in.

delaval

grazeaway wrote: »

Well we were milking up to about 10 years ago so I have the basics, that said I would have to do some up skilling. We run the sucklers the same as we did the dairy cows, same grazing management but with lower inputs and no milking. Work wise, I am pretty much at the limit of what I am prepared to do as I want to have some life. So the extra labour needs to be factored in.

A point on labour is that it takes 40-50 cows to pay a labour unit. I actually think your thinking is on track. You may be looking at the wrong partner, Moy (I think) was on the button with the equity investment and you do the heifer rearing.

grazeaway

exercise is the antidote wrote: »

How many acres where you judging that on? For the 45-50 cows with the robot? Looked into it myself a while ago and can't understand how lads get these sums from the banks! You here about fellas getting into milk setting up robots, then you here how banks ar not lending..? Some lads are magicians.....

Have about 70ac around the house and another few acres a few miles away. My dad was milking about 35 cows, as well as replacements and some tillage back in the day. Currently carrying 45 sucklers and some yearlings. With whole place in grass I would be able to carry about 50 with replacements and still be able to have plenty of silage ground. I would prefer to err on having too much grass the not enough.

delaval

grazeaway wrote: »

Have about 70ac around the house and another few acres a few miles away. My dad was milking about 35 cows, as well as replacements and some tillage back in the day. Currently carrying 45 sucklers and some yearlings. With whole place in grass I would be able to carry about 50 with replacements and still be able to have plenty of silage ground. I would prefer to err on having too much grass the not enough.

Have you got good land? How much does your neighbour have?
If good dry land would carry 80 cows with 60% of silage coming from it, buying 1 tonne of nuts

The heavier stocked the more grass you'll grow.

Timmaay

80 cows is also very little extra work over 50cows, the one labour unit will manage them fine. As well as this you'll gain in economy of scale for things like the milktank, slurry sheds etc etc

grazeaway

delaval wrote: »

A point on labour is that it takes 40-50 cows to pay a labour unit. I actually think your thinking is on track. You may be looking at the wrong partner, Moy (I think) was on the button with the equity investment and you do the heifer rearing.

FIL moved from dairy to heifer rearing so I have picked his brains a bit in it. It is an option I think but the market for it will only become apparent post 2015.

grazeaway

delaval wrote: »

Have you got good land? How much does your neighbour have?
If good dry land would carry 80 cows with 60% of silage coming from it, buying 1 tonne of nuts

The heavier stocked the more grass you'll grow.

Tis good land round here. We can pretty much grow anything round here, but the bottom part of the farm is a bit spongey when it get wet.

keep going

An interesting one for ye. The 4 coops in west cork own another block of land in the region of 100 acres near bandon and are looking at setting it up as a milking pad .they plan to put milking and wintering facilities in place with the idea that a partner would come on board with stock and farm it in partnership for a fixed term.it would the partner to gain ownership of his stock before moving on to rent /buy a farm in their own right.its at very early stages and might not come to pass and would act as testing ground for others to model

Timmaay

grazeaway wrote: »

but the bottom part of the farm is a bit spongey when it get wet.

A wet farm is easier to graze with dairycows, as you'll be moving them twice a day anyways, easy to let them out for 2hours after a milking and on off graze them. I'd definitely be aiming for 80cows on that 70acres if you are to go dairying at all.

farmerjj

Timmaay wrote: »

A wet farm is easier to graze with dairycows, as you'll be moving them twice a day anyways, easy to let them out for 2hours after a milking and on off graze them. I'd definitely be aiming for 80cows on that 70acres if you are to go dairying at all.

I would,nt like 2have a wet farm for dairy cows!!!!!

Timmaay

farmerjj wrote: »

I would,nt like 2have a wet farm for dairy cows!!!!!

Well not ideal, but if you had to stock either sucklers or dairycows on it, then at least with the dairying you'll have someone fulltime on it who can let them out for 2/3hours and bring them back in. In any case, grazeaways farm isn't wet, but basically what I'm saying is its much easier to extend the grazing season with dairying that for sucklers due to the labour element.

farmerjj

Timmaay wrote: »

Well not ideal, but if you had to stock either sucklers or dairycows on it, then at least with the dairying you'll have someone fulltime on it who can let them out for 2/3hours and bring them back in. In any case, grazeaways farm isn't wet, but basically what I'm saying is its much easier to extend the grazing season with dairying that for sucklers due to the labour element.

I suppose but u,d wanna be very careful with stocking rate.If you get a bad spring it could be a nightmare trying to keep milk yields up,

rs8

from reading the posts id say youd want 130+ cows to making anything out of it! would it be hard to find a good manager? a good one will cost you id say

kevthegaff

id love to get in a lad fulltime and maybe go back to computing or take on another farm but our land is v hilly and i wouldnt trust a lad driving here! I asked the neighbour about it, he has about 140 acres and i 210 so we could milk a nice number reducing labour while improving profits i hope! but hes not on for it. Im still thinking of the buying in all heifers and selling all calves. Upping the number of cows milked while reducing labour and hassle

biddy2013

farmerjj wrote: »

I would,nt like 2have a wet farm for dairy cows!!!!!

i have a wet farm for dairy cows, was great last summer but 2012 was a disaster

Timmaay

kevthegaff wrote: »

id love to get in a lad fulltime and maybe go back to computing or take on another farm but our land is v hilly and i wouldnt trust a lad driving here! I asked the neighbour about it, he has about 140 acres and i 210 so we could milk a nice number reducing labour while improving profits i hope! but hes not on for it. Im still thinking of the buying in all heifers and selling all calves. Upping the number of cows milked while reducing labour and hassle

I think your stone mad to be considering buying in heifers, would you not contract rear? I've heard of one or two farmers who did that in the past and most ended up with massive cull rates as the bought in stock were not up to scratch.

darragh_haven

I had a call from a dairy farmer in his mid 20s today, working extremely hard but making money. He started out on his own about 5 years ago, rented a 90 acre farm with basic facilities. Running 100 cows on it and has 40 acres 6 miles from him for the silage ground. He has a family and is stuck in football for his GAA team. I be friendly enough with him. And he said months back that if I was renting out the garm, he be very interested and just keep him in mind.

He rang to ask would I consider going into a dairy partnership in the next few years, if I was going back farming. I be bringing very good existing facilities and grazing platform while he bring experience and a current dairy herd. (He would continue to lease the ground he has in the partnership)

Does anyone here currently farm in a partnership, that is not a family member. And, is there anyone that I could go and talk to about this. I know there was 3 neighbouring farmers on the IFJ near bandon about a year ago in a partnership, but I don't know them.

Timmaay

If he can't make money with 100cows now, how will he make any by expanding more? I'd be asking the hard questions like profit monitors, grass grown etc etc 1stly, and would be looking for him to have likes of them done before I'd consider it at all.

darragh_haven

Timmaay wrote: »

If he can't make money with 100cows now, how will he make any by expanding more? I'd be asking the hard questions like profit monitors, grass grown etc etc 1stly, and would be looking for him to have likes of them done before I'd consider it at all.

He said he IS making money bit he is run raggit. For a fella to start with close to nothing 5 years ago, I have to admire where he is now. He knows my situation, and knows he needs help. (half the solution is recognising that he needs help to expand) He reckons that we should investigate if a dairy partnership would be good for BOTH of us.
Early stages and neither of us is going to rush into anything

Timmaay

Read it wrong, sorry!

jaymla627

darragh_haven wrote: »

I had a call from a dairy farmer in his mid 20s today, working extremely hard but making money. He started out on his own about 5 years ago, rented a 90 acre farm with basic facilities. Running 100 cows on it and has 40 acres 6 miles from him for the silage ground. He has a family and is stuck in football for his GAA team. I be friendly enough with him. And he said months back that if I was renting out the garm, he be very interested and just keep him in mind.

He rang to ask would I consider going into a dairy partnership in the next few years, if I was going back farming. I be bringing very good existing facilities and grazing platform while he bring experience and a current dairy herd. (He would continue to lease the ground he has in the partnership)

Does anyone here currently farm in a partnership, that is not a family member. And, is there anyone that I could go and talk to about this. I know there was 3 neighbouring farmers on the IFJ near bandon about a year ago in a partnership, but I don't know them.

To be fair 100 cows will provide an income for one lad how two different parties think that it can cover two is crazy, when the dust settles you"ll see the big herds 200 plus cows and the smaller one man bands their really isnt any middle ground the best accountants going couldnt even twist the numbers to work on 100 cows in a two way partnership

freedominacup

jaymla627 wrote: »

To be fair 100 cows will provide an income for one lad how two different parties think that it can cover two is crazy, when the dust settles you"ll see the big herds 200 plus cows and the smaller one man bands their really isnt any middle ground the best accountants going couldnt even twist the numbers to work on 100 cows in a two way partnership

I think you'd want to use a bigger font size darragh:rolleyes:. Specsavers voucher as a prize for poster who gives the best wrong answer based on reading darraghs posts arseways.

darragh_haven

jaymla627 wrote: »

To be fair 100 cows will provide an income for one lad how two different parties think that it can cover two is crazy, when the dust settles you"ll see the big herds 200 plus cows and the smaller one man bands their really isnt any middle ground the best accountants going couldnt even twist the numbers to work on 100 cows in a two way partnership

The whole idea is could we farm together, milking 200 to 220 cows. Have a standard week of 5 1/2 days a week, and one of us do every second weekend. Then cover for holidays, long weekends away, football games etc aren't an issue. Time for life and family are important to both parties.
But as I say, the seed was planted yesterday. Whether anything ever comes from it depends entirely on if both of us can get what we require outta the deal.
I'm willing to explore every avenue to for my (and my dads) farm, include leasing it out, or going into partnership, or just continue with store cattle with my full time Job.

delaval

Ffs Darragh, few here coming from very fixed positions will be interesting to watch this one play out.

Lads are great advising others just wonder are they as goi to analyse their own business

Markcheese

keep going wrote: »

An interesting one for ye. The 4 coops in west cork own another block of land in the region of 100 acres near bandon and are looking at setting it up as a milking pad .they plan to put milking and wintering facilities in place with the idea that a partner would come on board with stock and farm it in partnership for a fixed term.it would the partner to gain ownership of his stock before moving on
to rent /buy a farm in their own right.its
at very early stages and might not come
to pass and would act as testing ground
for others to model

Thsts like the Nz system of share farming ,how lads starting build up an asset.(in the herd)
Everyone knows what's expected of them in advance... Any improvements to pasture ,fencing ,roads housing etc are taken into account,and all parties get a
share of profits (wouldn't have been great in 2012/13 )

kevthegaff

I think it could be a win win for both of ye, but revise everything. Theres a big partnership around here with 250-300 cows and it seems to suit as one guy is away from the farm but if it suits both parties thats the most important thing. How are hes milking facilities, are roadways, paddocks water all set up?. how many cubicles have ye alltogether?

20silkcut

I thought long and hard about this myself and suggested it once to a dairy farmer who rents a few acres off me. The vibe was that all he wanted me to do was sell him the farm.
I suggested it to another farmer who rents a few more acres off me and while they were all enthusiastic for it,when I suggested doing anything concrete they were incredibly wishy washy. Basically they were just humouring me so I would give them the conacre.
So my future vision of dairy partnership is farm the land myself sell excess silage.
Honestly it should be no more risky than any business partnership between two people but you have to factor in the laaand factor in Ireland and emotional attachment to same which is much different to say two business partners working out of a warehouse in some industrial estate.
Really I wonder sometimes are farmers programmed to devour each other until one farmer is left.

grazeaway

Darragh i think the big thing will be division of labour, responsibility and decision making. basically you need to be signing from the same sheet and have the same vision. from what other people seem to be saying this would be the most important thing for it to succeed. this is why my neighbour and i were looking into the use of a farm manger to run the partnership while we retain our full time jobs.

i think i might have mentioned it before but the FIL and his brother farm together but have moved away from dairy now. what they do is that the partnership splits its profits 50/50 between them but as the FIL is working on the farm while his brother works off the farm he is paid a wage from the partnership.

if you want to keep your job then i would look to set up a system where he will working full time on the farms while you work part time on it then spilt the weekends and holidays.

darragh_haven

grazeaway wrote: »

Darragh i think the big thing will be division of labour, responsibility and decision making. basically you need to be signing from the same sheet and have the same vision. from what other people seem to be saying this would become the most important thing for it to succeed. this is why my neighbour and i were looking into the use of a farm manger to run the partnership while we retain our full time jobs.

i think i might have mentioned it before but the FIL and his brother farm together but have moved away from dairy now. what they do is that the partnership splits its profits 50/50 between them but as the FIL is working on the farm while his brother works off the farm he is paid a wage from the partnership.

if you want to keep your job then i would look to set up a system where he will working full time on the farms while you work part time on it then spilt the weekends and holidays.

A wage would have to be drawn if work load wasn't split equally. And alot more details besides. One thing we have both said is that we won't rush into it. And April 2015 would be the target date if anything comes of this.

As Chris Gardner says "Make a good plan, focus everything on this plan ....... coz plan B sucks"

Its all about the plan. It has to be right.... for both

just do it

Darragh

You raise an interesting topic and I've seen partnerships in other business spheres that looked ideal fall to pieces over time. They are inherently difficult. In 2015 it may be perfect but in 2020, nevermind 2030, ye may have completely different ideas, completely different needs etc etc

Ultimately the crucial question is, what is the reason you're considering a partnership in the first case? So you can farm full-time? So that you can still work full-time but feel you're getting the most from your farm? I think it's the former. Would you not be better off getting your own farm ready for dairy in 2015 and rent a block of land for silage and possibly have your heifers contract reared? With all the expansion that's going on there must be plenty second-hand parlours around the place. I recall someone on here making the point that his simple parlour does the exact same job as one with all the bells and whistles i.e. takes the milk from the cow to the bulk tank.

I'm serious when I say business partnerships are like marriage, only harder. There are stats to back up that point i.e. more business partnerships break-up than marriages. And similar to marriages the break-up can often be quite acromonious and expensive (legal fees).

Rather than a partnership, the two of you could have your own seperate farms and possibly share a worker between you? Alternatively ye could share a rota for milking so that ye've every second weekend off.

I know it's not the answer you're looking for but that's my thoughts on it. Ultimately it's your choice and what ever you decide I wish you the best of luck with it.

jfh

just do it wrote: »

Darragh

You raise an interesting topic and I've seen partnerships in other business spheres that looked ideal fall to pieces over time. They are inherently difficult. In 2015 it may be perfect but in 2020, nevermind 2030, ye may have completely different ideas, completely different needs etc etc

Ultimately the crucial question is, what is the reason you're considering a partnership in the first case? So you can farm full-time? So that you can still work full-time but feel you're getting the most from your farm? I think it's the former. Would you not be better off getting your own farm ready for dairy in 2015 and rent a block of land for silage and possibly have your heifers contract reared? With all the expansion that's going on there must be plenty second-hand parlours around the place. I recall someone on here making the point that his simple parlour does the exact same job as one with all the bells and whistles i.e. takes the milk from the cow to the bulk tank.

I'm serious when I say business partnerships are like marriage, only harder. There are stats to back up that point i.e. more business partnerships break-up than marriages. And similar to marriages the break-up can often be quite acromonious and expensive (legal fees).

Rather than a partnership, the two of you could have your own seperate farms and possibly share a worker between you? Alternatively ye could share a rota for milking so that ye've every second weekend off.

I know it's not the answer you're looking for but that's my thoughts on it. Ultimately it's your choice and what ever you decide I wish you the best of luck with it.

very well put. i've seen some cracking partnership ideas fail & i always wonder why they didn't take on the risk themselves. it would even be harder with the emotional attachement of a farm.
a rota system sounds a good idea & easy to disolve if relationship sours.