Time the Government(s) actually tried to address suburban crime?

For Reals

Granted a lot has been put into policing troubled areas but there is a generational history of working class people literally left on the margins. Communities boxed off to the city limits so over priced apartment blocks can go up. When you take a community apart you lose social structure, any sense of neighbourhood. We had a laugh at the whole bank bailout and are having a good chuckle at the CRC and Irish Water shenanigans but can we put so much focus on headlines such as these?
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/teachers-fear-criminal-feud-may-close-dublin-school-1.1659675
We all remember The Westies etc. having sensationalist journalists in a drunken stupor, giddy as they handed out fun nicknames.
Surely we can address these estates and not just leave it on the back burner. I mean imagine this kind of thing start happening in D4? The army would be called in.

KarmaBaby

Why would this government or the next even desire to address this problem seriously? The only real solution in reducing suburban crime, is as you intimated; bridging the gap between rich and poor. But, this is not in the interests of Fine Gael or any of the Irish establishment parties.

Medium to long term, the only "solution" Ireland's centre right governments will promote is more likely to be something along the lines of increased suburban policing or even privatisation of law enforcement, which of course, will solve nothing other than generate more income for their paymasters.

For Reals

It's just sad. The only attention of note given to such areas in recent decades was the redevelopment scams schemes were the majority of people were told to ship out of their communities into the burbs so Apartments could go up. Now that most of them are unfinished or unsold there's little pockets of neither about the place.

KarmaBaby

For Reals wrote: »

It's just sad. The only attention of note given to such areas in recent decades was the redevelopment scams schemes were the majority of people were told to ship out of their communities into the burbs so Apartments could go up. Now that most of them are unfinished or unsold there's little pockets of neither about the place.

Yep. The "regeneration" projects are nothing more than a "land grab" by developers. Been going on in Limerick for years and look at the state of the city.

bmaxi

The problem, as I see it, is policing. What passes as policing in Ireland and it is a poor model to begin with, is reactive rather rather than proactive. It is much easier to control crime if you nip it in the bud and these crime gangs know that they're safe to operate in certain areas because there is virtually no police presence.
Then there is the social divide where more resources are put into wealthier areas, usually because of the influence of residents. I lived in Tallaght for thirty years and drove trucks for a long time. One instance which stands out in my mind is making a delivery to the golf club on Torquay Road, in the affluent suburb of Foxrock. I had to wait for the greenkeeper and sat in my truck outside for forty minutes while he was called. During that time, three different Garda patrol cars and one foot patrol passed the gate, each one of those interacted with the gatekeeper.
The reason I mention this is that in my thirty years in Tallaght, I lived in a house fronting onto the main perimeter road and while patrol cars would pass occasionally they would not interact with locals. Never once in that thirty years did I see a Garda foot patrol in my area, my reaction would probably have been to ask if they were lost.
Criminals find it easy to exist in these areas because the people living there have no faith in the police or the powers that be to look after their interests, this is why people have often turned to shadowy organisations to police their areas, considering them the lesser of two evils and not realising that they were setting up their own crime empires.
I am no stranger to working class areas, I was reared in Ballybough, but the difference between the two areas and eras was the policing. When I was growing up everybody knew the local Gardaí and respected and trusted them. They visited with shopkeepers and traders and passed time with local people so they had a good idea of what was going on in the area. As a result, people were not afraid to be seen talking to them and though crime still existed, it was often summarily dealt with, this satisfied all concerned.
Somewhere along the line this form of policing in these areas disappeared, no doubt to save money but the fact it can still exist in the posh suburbs, speaks volumes IMO, THere are two Irelands and unfortunately most of us will never get to know the other one.

KarmaBaby

bmaxi wrote: »

The problem, as I see it, is policing. What passes as policing in Ireland and it is a poor model to begin with, is reactive rather rather than proactive. It is much easier to control crime if you nip it in the bud and these crime gangs know that they're safe to operate in certain areas because there is virtually no police presence.
Then there is the social divide where more resources are put into wealthier areas, usually because of the influence of residents. I lived in Tallaght for thirty years and drove trucks for a long time. One instance which stands out in my mind is making a delivery to the golf club on Torquay Road, in the affluent suburb of Foxrock. I had to wait for the greenkeeper and sat in my truck outside for forty minutes while he was called. During that time, three different Garda patrol cars and one foot patrol passed the gate, each one of those interacted with the gatekeeper.
The reason I mention this is that in my thirty years in Tallaght, I lived in a house fronting onto the main perimeter road and while patrol cars would pass occasionally they would not interact with locals. Never once in that thirty years did I see a Garda foot patrol in my area, my reaction would probably have been to ask if they were lost.
Criminals find it easy to exist in these areas because the people living there have no faith in the police or the powers that be to look after their interests, this is why people have often turned to shadowy organisations to police their areas, considering them the lesser of two evils and not realising that they were setting up their own crime empires.
I am no stranger to working class areas, I was reared in Ballybough, but the difference between the two areas and eras was the policing. When I was growing up everybody knew the local Gardaí and respected and trusted them. They visited with shopkeepers and traders and passed time with local people so they had a good idea of what was going on in the area. As a result, people were not afraid to be seen talking to them and though crime still existed, it was often summarily dealt with, this satisfied all concerned.
Somewhere along the line this form of policing in these areas disappeared, no doubt to save money but the fact it can still exist in the posh suburbs, speaks volumes IMO, THere are two Irelands and unfortunately most of us will never get to know the other one.

There are areas of Limerick that are patrolled constantly by police while others would be lucky see a squad car from one end of the week to the next. It has done very little to halt criminal activity in those areas, that I don't need to name.

Imprisoning young offenders doesn't do anything since most re-offend within 3 years. We have no rehabilitation system whatsoever. Criminals are just thrown back into the system that created them, and given no motivation for change.

There's a wonderful documentary film called "The House I live In" from 2012 which looks at the criminal justice system in America. I think anyone that believes policing is a solution to suburban crime would have their opinion dramatically altered after watching it.

No form of policing is going to curb crime in urban areas that have high poverty and unemployment. It is only natural that in communities that are bereft of a local economy, teenagers that have been abandoned by the system will see crime as the only logical solution. They know they're not going to college because their families can't afford it. They know they're not getting a job. They see other individuals and gangs in their area making money from criminal activity. In those circumstances any 16 year old teen is going to see crime as a legitimate and perhaps only choice/way of getting out of the slums.

What would policing do to prevent this? Absolutely nothing. You just end up criminalising people that are victims of circumstance.

bmaxi

KarmaBaby wrote: »

There are areas of Limerick that are patrolled constantly by police while others would be lucky see a squad car from one end of the week to the next. It has done very little to halt criminal activity in those areas, that I don't need to name.

Imprisoning young offenders doesn't do anything since most re-offend within 3 years. We have no rehabilitation system whatsoever. Criminals are just thrown back into the system that created them, and given no motivation for change.

There's a wonderful documentary film called "The House I live In" from 2012 which looks at the criminal justice system in America. I think anyone that believes policing is a solution to suburban crime would have their opinion dramatically altered after watching it.

No form of policing is going to curb crime in urban areas that have high poverty and unemployment. It is only natural that in communities that are bereft of a local economy, teenagers that have been abandoned by the system will see crime as the only logical solution. They know they're not going to college because their families can't afford it. They know they're not getting a job. They see other individuals and gangs in their area making money from criminal activity. In those circumstances any 16 year old teen is going to see crime as a legitimate and perhaps only choice/way of getting out of the slums.

What would policing do to prevent this? Absolutely nothing. You just end up criminalising people that are victims of circumstance.

I can imagine which areas you speak of and I don't know why you wouldn't name them. If we are thinking of the same areas then I would suggest that the crime came before the policing, shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
The point I'm making is that people in these areas are distanced from the police force, there is no interaction and often the first contact people have with Gardaí. is when they start kicking in the neighbour's door in a drug bust. People who have to live in these areas are often harassed by Gardaí in their efforts to winkle out the criminals, leading to confrontational attitudes rather than the mutual respect positive community policing might have built up
Much the same happened in Dublin in the 1950s and 60s when places like Ballyfermot and Ballymun were built with virtually no facilities or infrastructure and with Gardaí being based as far away as Crumlin and Whitehall.
There is no substitute IMO for community policing but it appears to me that Gardaí have all but lost these social skills. Even in the small country town near where I live now, a visit to the local Garda station, for whatever reason, is likely to result in an interview with a surly officer who acts like he's dealing with something he's just scraped off the sole of his boot, rather than the taxpaying citizen who also happens to be his employer.
As for the prison system, while I share your concerns for those who have the habitual criminal foisted back on to them to infect more innocents, my own opinion of prison is that it is far too liberal. Prison is a p[ace you shouldn't want to go back to rather than somewhere that offers all the home comforts and more.
The problem of poverty and deprivation is something that I have witnessed all my life and something we are unlikely to be rid of while we continue to elect corrupt governments like we have done over the years, but poverty does not necessarily always lead to criminality.
Not one of my childhood friends has ever been in trouble, all went on to be hard working family men and I put this down to the way society was shaped in those days when people could actually identify with the state they lived in rather than consider themselves to be enslaved to a system where recognition and advancement are impossible unless you move in the right circles and the only reward for hard work is to be considered a cash cow to be milked to fund the excesses of the elite.

For Reals

I find it strange. Although its been the same for my entire life I still don't get it. I mean O'Connell Street in Dublin. The fanciest street in the country's capital. You would be taking your life in you own hands walking the length of it on any given night, especially weekends. All the Garda do is lie in wait, sneak about on the margins and if they see something, 'if' they see something, they pounce. Little prevention or presence.
I knew lots of areas were the Garda wouldn't go. This was common knowledge. In these communities, like with O'Connell street the Garda act like sharks waiting to pounce with a heavy hand rather than be seen and integrate themselves into the community. They use to bully local kids. I think the idea was to let the local kids know who's boss, which really just bred contempt.

KarmaBaby

bmaxi wrote: »

...but poverty does not necessarily always lead to criminality.

Really?

Crime is exponentially higher among the poorest and in the most deprived of suburban communities. Particularly, in cities where there are rich and poor side by side. It is an absolutely accurate generalisation in every country in World. An increasing wealth divide with inevitably lead to an increase in crime.

For Reals

It actually works out great for successive Governments.
People in these areas do make up the bulk of small time criminals, (the big boys being Fianna Fail and chums amongst others), Montjoy has more than its fair share of Dublin working class.
These neighbourhoods also would have a low voter turn out. This is due to feeling marginalised and forgotten. 'Why bother?' attitude. I've never had a Fianna Fail or Fine Gael person call to my door in any election, local or otherwise.
I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, but they are one of the few parties who try to generate voter interest in these communities and bringing these people to the polling booths would be great for Ireland in the long term, Sinn Fein or not. I guess then we may see some genuine notice given to these areas which I believe would help quell the crime.

bmaxi

KarmaBaby wrote: »

Really?

Crime is exponentially higher among the poorest and in the most deprived of suburban communities. Particularly, in cities where there are rich and poor side by side. It is an absolutely accurate generalisation in every country in World. An increasing wealth divide with inevitably lead to an increase in crime.

I think what you mean is "certain types of crime". The people who have beggared the ordinary decent people of this country did not live in Tallaght or Moyross, instead they came from wealthy, privileged backgrounds. Do you not consider actions such as theirs, criminal, or is it just the petty thief and junkie?
Successive governments in this country have given succour to the so called "white collar criminal", principally because they numbered many of them among their supporters and benefactors.

KarmaBaby

bmaxi wrote: »

I think what you mean is "certain types of crime". The people who have beggared the ordinary decent people of this country did not live in Tallaght or Moyross, instead they came from wealthy, privileged backgrounds. Do you not consider actions such as theirs, criminal, or is it just the petty thief and junkie?
Successive governments in this country have given succour to the so called "white collar criminal", principally because they numbered many of them among their supporters and benefactors.

Of course. I agree with you.

But the OP mentioned working class communities and referenced an article on anti-social behaviour in disadvantaged areas. I was merely keeping things on topic.

For Reals

The overriding comment/point would be the fact that no substantial long-term work is put into tackling these issues.
I mean newly painted soccer pitches and a few wall murals every decade or so doesn't do ****.

johnnyskeleton

These things aren't solved by top down methods. The gardai can only do so much without the support of the community.

A generation ago, when places like crumlin and finglas did not have such a headline grabbing level of gangland crime, many people in those areas were suspicious, if not openly hostile to the gardai. You didn't report a crime, you sorted it out yourself or hoped it went away. Which is fine, except that a generation grew up knowing that no matter what they did it was unlikely the gardai would catch them. Not entirely surprisingly small time delinquents turned into gangland bosses.

There were always a lot of good people in these areas who didn't like the way things were. But, understandably, they were afraid or unwilling to do anything about it. This didn't help either.

So now we have areas with serious crime problems and the gardai find it very hard to do anything about it.

Things can change if people in those areas report crime and make witness statements, but without that you can't really expect the government to come up with a magic solution.

johnnyskeleton

KarmaBaby wrote: »

There are areas of Limerick that are patrolled constantly by police while others would be lucky see a squad car from one end of the week to the next. It has done very little to halt criminal activity in those areas, that I don't need to name.

Imprisoning young offenders doesn't do anything since most re-offend within 3 years. We have no rehabilitation system whatsoever. Criminals are just thrown back into the system that created them, and given no motivation for change.

There's a wonderful documentary film called "The House I live In" from 2012 which looks at the criminal justice system in America. I think anyone that believes policing is a solution to suburban crime would have their opinion dramatically altered after watching it.

No form of policing is going to curb crime in urban areas that have high poverty and unemployment. It is only natural that in communities that are bereft of a local economy, teenagers that have been abandoned by the system will see crime as the only logical solution. They know they're not going to college because their families can't afford it. They know they're not getting a job. They see other individuals and gangs in their area making money from criminal activity. In those circumstances any 16 year old teen is going to see crime as a legitimate and perhaps only choice/way of getting out of the slums.

What would policing do to prevent this? Absolutely nothing. You just end up criminalising people that are victims of circumstance.

Maybe, or like the c. 95% of working class people who don't commit any crimes (other than maybe an rta or public order), some people work hard to improve their lot while others choose the seemingly easy route of crime.

Poverty is not the cause of crime, substance abuse, disputes and rivalries are more likely to lead to crime.

johnnyskeleton

bmaxi wrote: »

I can imagine which areas you speak of and I don't know why you wouldn't name them. If we are thinking of the same areas then I would suggest that the crime came before the policing, shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
The point I'm making is that people in these areas are distanced from the police force, there is no interaction and often the first contact people have with Gardaí. is when they start kicking in the neighbour's door in a drug bust. People who have to live in these areas are often harassed by Gardaí in their efforts to winkle out the criminals, leading to confrontational attitudes rather than the mutual respect positive community policing might have built up
Much the same happened in Dublin in the 1950s and 60s when places like Ballyfermot and Ballymun were built with virtually no facilities or infrastructure and with Gardaí being based as far away as Crumlin and Whitehall.
There is no substitute IMO for community policing but it appears to me that Gardaí have all but lost these social skills. Even in the small country town near where I live now, a visit to the local Garda station, for whatever reason, is likely to result in an interview with a surly officer who acts like he's dealing with something he's just scraped off the sole of his boot, rather than the taxpaying citizen who also happens to be his employer.
As for the prison system, while I share your concerns for those who have the habitual criminal foisted back on to them to infect more innocents, my own opinion of prison is that it is far too liberal. Prison is a p[ace you shouldn't want to go back to rather than somewhere that offers all the home comforts and more.
The problem of poverty and deprivation is something that I have witnessed all my life and something we are unlikely to be rid of while we continue to elect corrupt governments like we have done over the years, but poverty does not necessarily always lead to criminality.
Not one of my childhood friends has ever been in trouble, all went on to be hard working family men and I put this down to the way society was shaped in those days when people could actually identify with the state they lived in rather than consider themselves to be enslaved to a system where recognition and advancement are impossible unless you move in the right circles and the only reward for hard work is to be considered a cash cow to be milked to fund the excesses of the elite.

I agree with most of your post, except for the suggestion that the lack of trust is caused by Garda corruption/intimidation. Trust is a two way street and while it might be a Garda saying "f u" today, that could well be because it was "f u gard" yesterday.

I always say hello to gards, some say hello back, other nod, some are jerks. Same I suppose with every other job.

SimonQuinlank

I know a Garda stationed in one of the areas mentioned above,and even he is disgusted with the attitude a good amount of his colleagues display when dealing with youths they come into contact with on a daily basis,even if those youths were stopped for doing nothing more then walking down the street and were co-operative with their requests for name/address etc.

He reckons its no wonder youth in the area grow up with no respect for the Gardai when they are treated like sub-human scum from their very first interaction with them at 12 or 13 years of age.

bmaxi

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I agree with most of your post, except for the suggestion that the lack of trust is caused by Garda corruption/intimidation. Trust is a two way street and while it might be a Garda saying "f u" today, that could well be because it was "f u gard" yesterday.

I always say hello to gards, some say hello back, other nod, some are jerks. Same I suppose with every other job.

I have witnessed this discrimination on several occasions. On one occasion, three teenagers, all of whom were known to me, were walking home from a football match. One of these three was a local bad boy, pot smoker and possibly worse, petty thief, vandal, the usual starting points for the budding criminal, the other two were apprentice carpenters together, played on the local team, led totally innocuous lives. All three had started school together and had been friends ever since
On this occasion, an unmarked Garda car pulled up and the occupants jumped out and detained the three lads, they didn't treat them with kid gloves either.
A small amount of pot was found on the black sheep and to cut a long story short, all three were piled into a van and carted off to the local Garda car station where they were held for several hours before being released without charge. In the course of the arrest, the younger sister of one of the boys became hysterical and was told to "shut the fcuk up" or she'd go too.
Now I know Gardaí have the right to stop and search on suspicion and obviously the one guy was known to them, but why take that attitude toward the other two, why be so belligerent toward a young girl who was clearly upset?
This is the sort of thing that colours the attitude of people, those young men will have a totally negative opinion of Gardaí for the rest of their lives and this will be passed on to their extended families., nice way to make friends in the community and foster relationships, guilt by association.

KarmaBaby

I had a long discussion with a female community garda recently on the subject of criminal youths being victims of circumstance. i.e. Growing up impoverished, lack of education, drugs in the community, violence in the home.

I was banging my head off the wall. She just didn't get it. Her views were entirely black and white; that there are just "good people and bad people."

I don't blame Gardai for the way they carry on, since they simply behave in the way that are trained, but the methods by which they are trained in this country must be absolutely prehistoric.

For Reals

There's a definite containment attitude. As long as the bad elements are kept in the bad areas its a matter of maintenance over cure.
I was stopped and searched numerous times over the years. My favourite was when they found a cassette tape on me, (yes, not last week). Two Gards. One was 'What's this for?' I'm standing there confused by the question explaining it had music on it. Then I was quizzed about a guitar plec also on my person. I mean if that's the relationship they nurture with someone walking down the street of an afternoon, it's no wonder there's an us and them environment.
I think a simple nod hello would go along way but it gets back to governments trying to keep these things in check rather than addressing and in turn preventing them at ground level.

And here's an example....
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/21523735/